murrill

I believe in an interconnectedness of spirit that unites the universe. During my drinking years, and when I am struggling to get along with the world, I separated myself. My at-one-ment occurs when I discard the ego and release myself to that state of grace.
The limitations of language make this difficult.

Ken33xx

Thanks

samseb5351

I wonder if there is language we could use to describe your beliefs and maybe some sincere questions could bring that out. You mentioned "interconnectedness of spirit" , what do you mean by "spirit" in the context you expressed? What makes this "spirit" interconnected and also universal? It seems from what you are saying, there is different states of something including Ego and movement away from Ego and Grace and a movement towards grace. I can make what you are saying line up with some of my pragmatic recovery of mindful attention and letting go of attachment, where there is a kind of movement from overly and uncomfortably emotional responses to things usually based on self driven irrational thoughts to things a bit less emotional and reactive based on attempts to align with reality. But I am not sure that is what you mean with your Ego/grace analogy.

murrill

Thanks you for your well-put questions that I agree may help to clarify. To use the 12-step vernacular, perhaps the word that may describe the interconnectedness is serenity. Some other words that may be useful could be soul, heart, and yes, your descriptions of mindfulness and letting go. If there is confusion I suspect it is a semantic one. It is the experience of no longer being at war with the universe, the sense that I am "right-sized," enough, and accepting. My ego is the me-me-me of it all: My slef-absorption, seeing myself and my needs as the center of it all. Grace implies a more blanced state where I am neither too important nor too insignificant. Somethings tells me that we may have similar points of reference.

soberlicious

Sounds like the Middle Way.

murrill

I confess: I had to look up the Middle Way, but it is a good comparison. Thanks.

LedByTheNose

I found the answer to this dilemma within AA. The solution (found in Ch. 2-3 of the 12 Steps of the 12x12) was to make my HP "Group of Drunks - G.o.D." They were sober and I trusted that they could tell me how to get and stay that way - and I was willing to do what they did. It worked in amazing ways, eventually leading me to discover the Holy Grail of the early AAers - the Great Reality Within. (BB p. 55).

I know this is secular AA, so won't say more. Congrats on 23 days; don't give up, no matter what....there's always More.

AA heart huggers,

PJ

NoelleR

You do realize that 'Great Reality' within is later defined in a way kinda like many of that era (and today) saw the Judeo/Christian God...............:

"...They had visioned the Great Reality--their loving and All
Powerful Creator..." BB page 161

(o:
NoelleR

LedByTheNose

Bill talks about making 'conscious contact' with the Spirit of God. "On the Broad Highway, walking hand in hand with the Spirit of the Universe.' (BB p. 75)

The God and GRW of AA are definitely 'secular' - outside the empty shell of religion.

12 Steps, p. 60 "..in establishing contact with a Power greater than ourselves."

p. 62 - "...something else of (G)reat (M)oment is apt to occur."

What Bill (and others) hoped to pass on to us was far greater and particular than just 'how not to drink'. "You will be amazed before you are half-way through."

Many philosophers have told us that the Answer lies within but, to my knowledge, only Bill W. (et al) gave us the Process to find It for ourselves.

I didn't find the Holy Spirit in the Bible nor empty religion. I found It in AA . And the amazing Journey begun in AA, continues.

It seems that for a long time now, folks in AA no longer trust the most important 'black stuff' written in the BB and 12x12. Looking back, I could see at least one detrimental saying that so many bought into:

"I don't care how or why AA works; it just does, and that's good enough for me."

As an atheist/agnostic for 25 yrs, and as an alcoholic who could not stop drinking - I was extremely curious as to how and why AA worked - because it surely did, one day at a time. "Group of Drunks" was the best I could do - and it was enough to lead me into spiritual kindergarten...and then beyond.

I refused to do the 5th Step for four years in AA, and had accepted that I would stay on the 4th Step for the rest of my life (I had plenty of 4th-Step material that seemed to fit the maxim 'more will be revealed').

In the beginning, when I had sobered up long enough for my mind to clear a bit, I suddenly realized that the 5th Step was "Confession" of the Catholics (born and raised). I still remember the moment...."What is that doing in AA?!" Grrrrr. But it was too late - I already loved AA and sobriety. I simply accepted that I would never advance past the 4th Step.

But then I became utterly miserable in my 4th year of sobriety, and could not find the way out - there was no 'cause' that I could see. As a very last resort (just above a bullet), I did the 5th Step on the one item I was determined to take to the grave.

Today, I suspect that many who have done a 'thorough and complete' 5th Step had the same Experience that I did - they just didn't have the awareness of what happened in the Moment and so 'conscious contact' was not made.

My experience doesn't fit in mainstream AA of today (dismissive/hostile) but perhaps the path I re-discovered to the GRW could qualify as 'secular AA/12-Step' since it is a spiritual path that is no longer regarded as valid in regular AA. No Bible thumping involved - I didn't find the GRW in the Bible.

I guess "secular 12-Steps", to me, could be considered looking/working the first 5 Steps from a different angle than is generally practiced today. I did them as an agnostic.

Best to All,

PJ
dos 8/98

rbragg05

It has been a long time since I came to this site and I regret that. I recently had a slight relapse and when "the dust settled" this site was the first thing I thought of I am an Atheist all the way and got scared away from AA with all the God talk. I would love to find secular meetings around me. (Maybe I should get the word out and start my own)

Powerless1957

Hi Beddy,
i can empathise with you, i spent the best part of a decade in the rooms and i realise now that i was classicly conditioned, most call it brainwashing to keep you imprisoned within ´sick mode´ (only a daily reprieve, ´keep coming back´ etc etc) in the end after seeing a CBT therapist i understood that all that had happened was i had switched addictions and had become co-dependent on a flaky ideology..
I could never understand the logic of divesting responsibility over to some other entity - it seemed illogical if i was ever to learn how to manage life by myself -- i had already made the decision to quit drinking without praying or subjugation to anything..
A huge part of AA is the mental conditioning that goes on and this can affect anyone who has long term exposure - i remember i was one of those who was the bigoted type, grateful for AA´s brand of recovery and i did my best to convert others without any medical or theist knowledge - looking back it was insane!
I agree it is difficult to switch off when the God hysteria kicks in, and near the end, listening was like pulling teeth..

I found my higher power quite naturally after being sent a spiritual excersise routine which i still do every morning, my higher power is not God, it cant accept negative character defects or sins, it is just a force of positive energy which i can connect to freely now - i might indeed find out later it´s just a manifestation of my own ego haha, but for now the important thing is it gives me something to focus on in a meeting while listening to exactly the same resentments from one person that i heard 5 years ago..
Less is more, i now go to AA once a month as my life has changed 180 i am engaged to a grounded normal girl who has no hang ups or weirdness - if i hadn´t gone to that CBT therapist i would still be in the rooms everyday reading only AA authorised material and slowely atrophying..
I have a link to the little excercise that kick started my connection with positive energy, it may or may not help,
regards,
´G´
Hi Beddy,
i can empathise with you, i spent the best part of a decade in the rooms and i realise now that i was classicly conditioned, most call it brainwashing to keep you imprisoned within ´sick mode´ (only a daily reprieve, ´keep coming back´ etc etc) in the end after seeing a CBT therapist i understood that all that had happened was i had switched addictions and had become co-dependent on a flaky ideology..
I could never understand the logic of divesting responsibility over to some other entity - it seemed illogical if i was ever to learn how to manage life by myself -- i had already made the decision to quit drinking without praying or subjugation to anything..
A huge part of AA is the mental conditioning that goes on and this can affect anyone who has long term exposure - i remember i was one of those who was the bigoted type, grateful for AA´s brand of recovery and i did my best to convert others without any medical or theist knowledge - looking back it was insane!
I agree it is difficult to switch off when the God hysteria kicks in, and near the end, listening was like pulling teeth..

I found my higher power quite naturally after being sent a spiritual excersise routine which i still do every morning, my higher power is not God, it cant accept negative character defects or sins, it is just a force of positive energy which i can connect to freely now - i might indeed find out later it´s just a manifestation of my own ego haha, but for now the important thing is it gives me something to focus on in a meeting while listening to exactly the same resentments from one person that i heard 5 years ago..
Less is more, i now go to AA once a month as my life has changed 180 i am engaged to a grounded normal girl who has no hang ups or weirdness - if i hadn´t gone to that CBT therapist i would still be in the rooms everyday reading only AA authorised material and slowely atrophying..
I have a link to the little excercise that kick started my connection with positive energy, it may or may not help,
regards,
´G´
arghh! apparently i cant attach links until i have 15 posts - pooh!
if you type into google "Qi Gong: 7 Minutes of Magic" you´ll get there..

JoeCree

If you're a fan of Sci Fi then Prometheus certainly tackles questions on belief, value and a higher power (engineers). I know it is a horror movie and part of the Alien Arc but Ridley Scott really took this question head on.

SillyHuman

So, this thing that does not exist is the only thing on the planet that can keep me sober (per AA), and you don't see a problem?

SillyHuman

Wow. Just, wow.

IvanMike

I was an atheist when i came into recovery, and I'm still an atheist now. I'm glad that the NA literature made it clear that the nature of the power of my understanding was entirely up to me. To say that i was skeptical would have been a gross understatement. As it turned out, i have found that i can practice all 12 steps fully without compromising my beliefs. In fact, i have found steps 2, 7 and 11 to be extremely profound on a personal level;. I used to cringe when i heard the word "god", and now i simply accept that fact that (within the context of the program) it's simply a convenient word to use for the multifaceted "power" that enables me to recover.

As always, YMMV.