An Atheist Looking for a Sponsor
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 76
An Atheist Looking for a Sponsor
Hello all,
I have been in and out of these forums for a while now, and I have been in and out of A.A. for eight years now. I have tried other programs such as SMART Recovery, and I have tried working with five different sponsors in A.A., but for various reasons nothing has yet helped me to achieve lasting sobriety. This time around, I have been sober since October 8, 2014, and I have decided that I really want A.A. to work for me because I think I need the help of a program that has so many members and so many meetings where I can find support.
I also want to work the steps, but as an atheist (I don't really like to label myself, but I am using this as the closest term to simplify my beliefs), I have had a really difficult time finding anyone who can work the steps with me in a way that will be meaningful enough to me to truly change my life. I believe that there is a practical/rational way to work the steps, as has been discussed on here and other places, and in my own translation of the steps.
My question is to those of you who have worked the steps in a practical/rational way, without relying on some kind of supernatural "higher power," and have been able to achieve a lasting sobriety/change of life through doing this. Were you able to find a sponsor to help you with this, or did you have to do it on your own? And if you were able to find a sponsor, how did you go about finding one?
(Just to be clear on the higher power idea, it is not that I "refuse" to believe in a supernatural power; it is more that I am unable to. I can see the group as a higher power, or something along those lines.)
Truly wanting to stay sober and work toward a better way to live...
Thank you for any help or input. :-)
I have been in and out of these forums for a while now, and I have been in and out of A.A. for eight years now. I have tried other programs such as SMART Recovery, and I have tried working with five different sponsors in A.A., but for various reasons nothing has yet helped me to achieve lasting sobriety. This time around, I have been sober since October 8, 2014, and I have decided that I really want A.A. to work for me because I think I need the help of a program that has so many members and so many meetings where I can find support.
I also want to work the steps, but as an atheist (I don't really like to label myself, but I am using this as the closest term to simplify my beliefs), I have had a really difficult time finding anyone who can work the steps with me in a way that will be meaningful enough to me to truly change my life. I believe that there is a practical/rational way to work the steps, as has been discussed on here and other places, and in my own translation of the steps.
My question is to those of you who have worked the steps in a practical/rational way, without relying on some kind of supernatural "higher power," and have been able to achieve a lasting sobriety/change of life through doing this. Were you able to find a sponsor to help you with this, or did you have to do it on your own? And if you were able to find a sponsor, how did you go about finding one?
(Just to be clear on the higher power idea, it is not that I "refuse" to believe in a supernatural power; it is more that I am unable to. I can see the group as a higher power, or something along those lines.)
Truly wanting to stay sober and work toward a better way to live...
Thank you for any help or input. :-)
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
The sponsor route didn't work for me. But I do live in the Bible Belt, so that might have something to do with slim pickings. I would encourage you not to rule out the sponsor however... might simply be a matter of working the steps on your own for now, while looking for a good match. It can work. I just didn't have much luck here.
I highly recommend AAAgnostica for you, as well as most of the books offered in the bookstore there. I have the majority of them and they helped me along my path.
I highly recommend AAAgnostica for you, as well as most of the books offered in the bookstore there. I have the majority of them and they helped me along my path.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 343
I resisted 12-step programs for a long time because I had so many misconceptions about AA, Higher Power, etc. I opened my mind only when I was out of answers and desperate for survival. I respect you for asking these questions and for being receptive to feedback.
Spnsorship never worked very well for me because I was not a very good sponsee. I didn't call regularly, chose passive sponsors who were not well-versed in step work, etc. It would probably be more accurate to say that I used a group of people--some of AA's "hard hitters"--as my collective sponsor. I arrived early for meetings, went for coffee afterwards, etc. with them, and we talked "program"--a lot.
I also do not believe in an interventionist deity, and I found that here are people in AA who hold similar views. I suspect you hear a lot of people in AA who attribute their sobriety to their HP. I will suggest that I am sober today because I worked the steps, and as a resultI aligned with the wisdom of the universe instead of fighting it.Today I am comfortable with defining spirituality as being "right sized" and in concert with the energy of the universe. I believe that there is a constant flow of wisdom, and I am at my "spiritual best" when I am at one with that.
There are some "atheist" versions of the 12 steps on-line, but I have found it pretty easy to simply shift the existing ones into language I can work with.
Spnsorship never worked very well for me because I was not a very good sponsee. I didn't call regularly, chose passive sponsors who were not well-versed in step work, etc. It would probably be more accurate to say that I used a group of people--some of AA's "hard hitters"--as my collective sponsor. I arrived early for meetings, went for coffee afterwards, etc. with them, and we talked "program"--a lot.
I also do not believe in an interventionist deity, and I found that here are people in AA who hold similar views. I suspect you hear a lot of people in AA who attribute their sobriety to their HP. I will suggest that I am sober today because I worked the steps, and as a resultI aligned with the wisdom of the universe instead of fighting it.Today I am comfortable with defining spirituality as being "right sized" and in concert with the energy of the universe. I believe that there is a constant flow of wisdom, and I am at my "spiritual best" when I am at one with that.
There are some "atheist" versions of the 12 steps on-line, but I have found it pretty easy to simply shift the existing ones into language I can work with.
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
There is allot in your post that I can relate to. I came to AA an atheist. The God talk annoyed me to no end. One day another's well placed words forced me consider that I had never seriously investigated even the possibility of a deity.
Even so, I found myself thinking that an investigation would be a waste of time, because like you I wasn't refusing to believe in a higher power, I simply wasn't able to. In fact it sounded silly that anyone could decide to believe something, anything at all. You either believed something or you did not. It was not a matter of choice.
Beside that, the whole question of the existence of God is something that's not knowable anyway. It's a philosophical question. It doesn't have an answer.
Nevertheless, long story short, I did a lot of investigation . It resulted in a spiritual experience which changed my beliefs. I did not change my beliefs, my experience did that.
I can see that you have a sense that there's value in the steps. I think you are correct. However, try not to anticipate the nature of what you may discover before the fact. The insights gained are often beyond the scope of "mere rationalism".
If you have never seen it before, I think you might get a better sense of this from Carl Jung's letter to Bill Wilson. He was obviously a world class thinker and expresses this much better than I could ever hope to.
Even so, I found myself thinking that an investigation would be a waste of time, because like you I wasn't refusing to believe in a higher power, I simply wasn't able to. In fact it sounded silly that anyone could decide to believe something, anything at all. You either believed something or you did not. It was not a matter of choice.
Beside that, the whole question of the existence of God is something that's not knowable anyway. It's a philosophical question. It doesn't have an answer.
Nevertheless, long story short, I did a lot of investigation . It resulted in a spiritual experience which changed my beliefs. I did not change my beliefs, my experience did that.
I can see that you have a sense that there's value in the steps. I think you are correct. However, try not to anticipate the nature of what you may discover before the fact. The insights gained are often beyond the scope of "mere rationalism".
If you have never seen it before, I think you might get a better sense of this from Carl Jung's letter to Bill Wilson. He was obviously a world class thinker and expresses this much better than I could ever hope to.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by damselfly 
...My question is to those of you who have worked the steps in a practical/rational way, without relying on some kind of supernatural "higher power," and have been able to achieve a lasting sobriety/change of life through doing this.
(However, I believe in God. I just don't see alcoholism as a moral issue. For whatever reason the obsession to drink left after my first meeting and as long as I don't have that monkey on my back I consider myself moving in the right direction.)
Originally Posted by damselfly
Were you able to find a sponsor to help you with this, or did you have to do it on your own? And if you were able to find a sponsor, how did you go about finding one?
I was fortunate to attend a lot of meetings where I felt it easy to speak freely. My first sponsor was someone I could spend time with and talk about the program. We didn't do much step work and it wasn't a problem with him when I took what I needed and left the rest.
My advise would be to attend a lot of meetings if possible and take your time finding a sponsor. You don't necessarily have to do choose someone right away. The tools of AA are suggested as a means of recovery and members often work the program in various ways yet still find success.
Also I found making friends with members and have a few people to hang out with before or after the meetings as beneficial as an actual sponsor.
Imo, it's all about finding meetings you feel comfortable attending and becoming an active member. You just can't show up, sit in the corner and then run out the door when the meeting is over. You need to participate in your recovery and that to me means sharing and getting involved in the fellowship.
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,476
second step says "came to believe" so it doesn't matter what you currently believe.
Beliefs are just that ....
take the action, say the prayers, as outlined in the big book, let God come to you.
Beliefs are just that ....
take the action, say the prayers, as outlined in the big book, let God come to you.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 625
Originally Posted by damselfly
My question is to those of you who have worked the steps in a practical/rational way, without relying on some kind of supernatural "higher power," and have been able to achieve a lasting sobriety/change of life through doing this.
Originally Posted by damselfly
Were you able to find a sponsor to help you with this, or did you have to do it on your own? And if you were able to find a sponsor, how did you go about finding one?
We worked together for three years before I moved away. Since then, nearly twenty years, I have worked the steps on my own. I have not found it necessary to get another sponsor - the first one showed me how to work the steps. For fifth step purposes, I use my wife who is also in the program. She is the closest thing to a sponsor I've got today.
Originally Posted by damselfly
(Just to be clear on the higher power idea, it is not that I "refuse" to believe in a supernatural power; it is more that I am unable to. I can see the group as a higher power, or something along those lines.)
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 812
Congrats on your sober time. Willingness is the key, and you seem to want it to work for you, so you're already off to a great start!
There's "willingness" and then there's "willing to go to any lengths." Those lengths, for me, included working the steps the way they were outlined in the Big Book. I also came into AA as an atheist, and I had the educational variety of the spiritual awakening. Today I identify with "something" I call a higher power, but it's outside of religion.
I did the steps with a sponsor who was Christian, but she made it very clear to me from the beginning that my HP did not have to be hers and she encouraged me to seek. Mine is something more organic to my experience with the 12 steps. But she insisted I do the steps as outlined in the book. And so we did.
I was incredibly desperate for sobriety, I mean I really, really wanted it, and even though I did not think the steps would work for me, I was willing to try them. No changing the words in the text or the process. Even though some of the wording and passages made me cringe, and I thought prayers were way out of my belief system. She told me saying them would be a lesson in humility. And it was. Today I absolutely love some of those prayers and they have their own meanings for me that make absolute sense.
You say "Just to be clear on the higher power idea, it is not that I "refuse" to believe in a supernatural power; it is more that I am unable to." The fact that you don't "refuse" shows your willingness. Your HP does not have to be supernatural. I don't believe mine is and I have had a spiritual experience.
A few good and helpful quotes from the book:
"When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book. Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to you. At the start, this was all we needed to commence spiritual growth."
Bolded part is my doing. We are given utter freedom in this passage to interpret the spiritual expressions as they relate to us and our experience. My definition of "spiritual" is not a Webster's dictionary definition--it's something much more personal to me; it's something I have experienced. If your conception is the group, and your idea of "spirituality" is the single purpose or the meeting of minds, than that's what works for you and it's all good.
To us, the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek.
I read many many books. I read many different books--Biblical scripture, the Tao te Ching, The Quran, The Gnostic Scriptures, and a plethora of spiritual poetry, aphorisms, and New Agey stuff. I was earnestly seeking. I never gave myself completely to any of them, but I discovered truth in them all, and they all helped me. I began to understand why people were drawn to such beliefs. I lost a lot of prejudice I never knew I had. I used to feel so uncomfortable around the religious, but today I am at home with anyone I meet, regardless of their religious leanings ... except for maybe Scientologists ... I am still a bit prejudiced, I just don't get it, but hey, maybe there is something there I am not seeing.
Anyway ... as long as a sponsor is open enough to allow you to have your own experience with the steps, then you don't really have special needs or anything as an atheist. Tell the person you are atheist and you want to work the steps. Where you may run into trouble is if you insist on doing them your way or a different way as they are written.
There's "willingness" and then there's "willing to go to any lengths." Those lengths, for me, included working the steps the way they were outlined in the Big Book. I also came into AA as an atheist, and I had the educational variety of the spiritual awakening. Today I identify with "something" I call a higher power, but it's outside of religion.
I did the steps with a sponsor who was Christian, but she made it very clear to me from the beginning that my HP did not have to be hers and she encouraged me to seek. Mine is something more organic to my experience with the 12 steps. But she insisted I do the steps as outlined in the book. And so we did.
I was incredibly desperate for sobriety, I mean I really, really wanted it, and even though I did not think the steps would work for me, I was willing to try them. No changing the words in the text or the process. Even though some of the wording and passages made me cringe, and I thought prayers were way out of my belief system. She told me saying them would be a lesson in humility. And it was. Today I absolutely love some of those prayers and they have their own meanings for me that make absolute sense.
You say "Just to be clear on the higher power idea, it is not that I "refuse" to believe in a supernatural power; it is more that I am unable to." The fact that you don't "refuse" shows your willingness. Your HP does not have to be supernatural. I don't believe mine is and I have had a spiritual experience.
A few good and helpful quotes from the book:
"When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book. Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to you. At the start, this was all we needed to commence spiritual growth."
Bolded part is my doing. We are given utter freedom in this passage to interpret the spiritual expressions as they relate to us and our experience. My definition of "spiritual" is not a Webster's dictionary definition--it's something much more personal to me; it's something I have experienced. If your conception is the group, and your idea of "spirituality" is the single purpose or the meeting of minds, than that's what works for you and it's all good.
To us, the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek.
I read many many books. I read many different books--Biblical scripture, the Tao te Ching, The Quran, The Gnostic Scriptures, and a plethora of spiritual poetry, aphorisms, and New Agey stuff. I was earnestly seeking. I never gave myself completely to any of them, but I discovered truth in them all, and they all helped me. I began to understand why people were drawn to such beliefs. I lost a lot of prejudice I never knew I had. I used to feel so uncomfortable around the religious, but today I am at home with anyone I meet, regardless of their religious leanings ... except for maybe Scientologists ... I am still a bit prejudiced, I just don't get it, but hey, maybe there is something there I am not seeing.
Anyway ... as long as a sponsor is open enough to allow you to have your own experience with the steps, then you don't really have special needs or anything as an atheist. Tell the person you are atheist and you want to work the steps. Where you may run into trouble is if you insist on doing them your way or a different way as they are written.
Friend of Jimmy B
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 667
I don't like to label myself, but I don't believe in deities. They may exist, they may not. I don't know and it's none of my business. Like you, I don't like to label myself or paint myself into corners. All that said, I'm a week shy of 33 years sober and like Legna above, I'm happy and have a sense of peace and well being that attribute to working the 12 steps of AA along with some necessary "outside help". I have a higher power that is not supernatural, is not a door knob and most importantly is not me.
It's difficult if not impossible to do this ourselves. At least in my experience. All of my sponsors have had a belief in god and it hasn't been a problem. On of them helped me gain clarity by telling me it's okay to not believe in god but posed the question why I then insisted playing god.
I see that you're in southern California. I know it's a big place, but there may be an agnostic AA meeting nearby where you may be able to find someone to work with. Maybe you can find someone here. I would suggest that you don't impose limits on where you find help.
Peace.
-allan
It's difficult if not impossible to do this ourselves. At least in my experience. All of my sponsors have had a belief in god and it hasn't been a problem. On of them helped me gain clarity by telling me it's okay to not believe in god but posed the question why I then insisted playing god.
I see that you're in southern California. I know it's a big place, but there may be an agnostic AA meeting nearby where you may be able to find someone to work with. Maybe you can find someone here. I would suggest that you don't impose limits on where you find help.
Peace.
-allan
Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 765
Damselfly
Thank you for your courage and honesty
I have sponsored people who have a problem with "the God thing". In the Big Book of AA there is a Chapter called "We Agnostics". It is our Step 2 ("Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity."
Agnosticism means "not knowing". Atheism is firmly believing there is no Creative Intelligence that underlies the totality of the universe.
The chapter We Agnostics begins by saying that more than half of our members were either atheists or agnostics. More than half! It goes on to discuss things that help us clear the ground just a bit, and see how we have really always had faith in many things. It begins to open our minds a little to the possibility.
I would suggest stop trying to figure it out or use your intelligence. That can't keep is sober or get us sane. This stuff can't be figured out. It's incredibly simple to our complex minds!
It's a program of action, not thinking.
You say you want lasting sobriety (and I'm guessing peace and happiness.) The steps in AA (which are in the Big Book) were my way to a very fulfilling life. I am also neutral to alcohol today. The problem is just gone.
Check out Big Book Step meetings in your area. You might hear something very different there. And give it at least 6 tries before you make up your mind. These are my best suggestions.
Best
WMJ
Thank you for your courage and honesty
I have sponsored people who have a problem with "the God thing". In the Big Book of AA there is a Chapter called "We Agnostics". It is our Step 2 ("Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity."
Agnosticism means "not knowing". Atheism is firmly believing there is no Creative Intelligence that underlies the totality of the universe.
The chapter We Agnostics begins by saying that more than half of our members were either atheists or agnostics. More than half! It goes on to discuss things that help us clear the ground just a bit, and see how we have really always had faith in many things. It begins to open our minds a little to the possibility.
I would suggest stop trying to figure it out or use your intelligence. That can't keep is sober or get us sane. This stuff can't be figured out. It's incredibly simple to our complex minds!
It's a program of action, not thinking.
You say you want lasting sobriety (and I'm guessing peace and happiness.) The steps in AA (which are in the Big Book) were my way to a very fulfilling life. I am also neutral to alcohol today. The problem is just gone.
Check out Big Book Step meetings in your area. You might hear something very different there. And give it at least 6 tries before you make up your mind. These are my best suggestions.
Best
WMJ
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: liverpool, england
Posts: 1,708
i dont believe in a god and i accept that for me i never will believe in one but the aa program worked for me once i removed the god idea
i didnt know it at the time but the very first day i walked into an aa room i was looking for a power greater than myself that could help me
hence i came to believe in the power of aa, i needed proof aa works and there are plenty of sober people all around me who also had to go to there first aa meeting to find a way to get sober
some believe a god took them to aa or that a god crated aa i dont believe it i just belive bill and bob met like anyone can meet in life and out it came the very thing that has helped millions over the years
2 alcoholics being together and just talking about themselves, they found out there not the only people who are like it and that to me is priceless
it took me a long time to come to believe in a power greater than me, all i do know is i couldnt ever of got off the drink before being on my own but once i went to aa i started to learn all about me
the steps freed me up from the shame and guilt i had carried about with me all my life, i learned a way to live my life
the st Frances of Assisi prayer is my set of instructions for how i have to try to live my life daily
i had to learn what real love is as i thought love was about how much people gave to me and made me happy, not what i can do and give to others without expecting anything back ?
it really is a whole life changing experience for me being in aa and being a apart of aa like i said all i had to do in my own mind was ignore the god word and everything else in aa fits me like a glove my sponsort isnt one who would try to ram anything home to me and he was the guy that got me to really understand what a believe in a higher power really looks like
i was like you i said i dont have one i can not see one, then he said why did you go to aa then in the first place ? i said to help me get off the drink
so he said i needed a power greater than me to help me ?
hence i came to believe it like others believe in a god except its the fellowship of aa for me
i didnt know it at the time but the very first day i walked into an aa room i was looking for a power greater than myself that could help me
hence i came to believe in the power of aa, i needed proof aa works and there are plenty of sober people all around me who also had to go to there first aa meeting to find a way to get sober
some believe a god took them to aa or that a god crated aa i dont believe it i just belive bill and bob met like anyone can meet in life and out it came the very thing that has helped millions over the years
2 alcoholics being together and just talking about themselves, they found out there not the only people who are like it and that to me is priceless
it took me a long time to come to believe in a power greater than me, all i do know is i couldnt ever of got off the drink before being on my own but once i went to aa i started to learn all about me
the steps freed me up from the shame and guilt i had carried about with me all my life, i learned a way to live my life
the st Frances of Assisi prayer is my set of instructions for how i have to try to live my life daily
i had to learn what real love is as i thought love was about how much people gave to me and made me happy, not what i can do and give to others without expecting anything back ?
it really is a whole life changing experience for me being in aa and being a apart of aa like i said all i had to do in my own mind was ignore the god word and everything else in aa fits me like a glove my sponsort isnt one who would try to ram anything home to me and he was the guy that got me to really understand what a believe in a higher power really looks like
i was like you i said i dont have one i can not see one, then he said why did you go to aa then in the first place ? i said to help me get off the drink
so he said i needed a power greater than me to help me ?
hence i came to believe it like others believe in a god except its the fellowship of aa for me
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 600
"... without relying on some kind of supernatural "higher power," ..."
The Big Book and the 12 step program does not insist on a supernatural higher power. Step 2 speaks of a power greater than oursleves ... we attend meetings, we post on here for advice, we are tapping into a power greater than ourselves, that is step 2.
I found a sponsor eventually who took me through the steps respecting my higher power as I understood it to be. Unfortunately I had a sponsor beforehand who insisted on the supernatural idea, he was and still is a great help in many respects, just not the higher power aspect so eventually I changed him.
I spoke to the new sponsor I had about this issue and to my surprise his beliefs were very similar to mine, even though he respects all of his sponsees higher power, whether that be Jesus or the aa group. He encouraged me to read the secular 12 steps, I already had and felt that an altered version wasn't for me at that time and he taught me how to hand to over to the universe/karma/whatever there maybe without a belief in a supernatural god.
Feel free to PM if there is anything you'd like to chat about on the issue.
The Big Book and the 12 step program does not insist on a supernatural higher power. Step 2 speaks of a power greater than oursleves ... we attend meetings, we post on here for advice, we are tapping into a power greater than ourselves, that is step 2.
I found a sponsor eventually who took me through the steps respecting my higher power as I understood it to be. Unfortunately I had a sponsor beforehand who insisted on the supernatural idea, he was and still is a great help in many respects, just not the higher power aspect so eventually I changed him.
I spoke to the new sponsor I had about this issue and to my surprise his beliefs were very similar to mine, even though he respects all of his sponsees higher power, whether that be Jesus or the aa group. He encouraged me to read the secular 12 steps, I already had and felt that an altered version wasn't for me at that time and he taught me how to hand to over to the universe/karma/whatever there maybe without a belief in a supernatural god.
Feel free to PM if there is anything you'd like to chat about on the issue.
Recovering ostrich
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Tampa Bay, Florida
Posts: 2,551
Maybe find a beginner meeting? That is where I found my sponsor...'she had mentioned in a share that she didn't care what a person's higher power was as long as they understood that they weren't the center of the universe.
And I know that I've said this before in the forums and I've had different reactions (lol) but I also go to gay meetings and I have heard more secular viewpoints openly expressed there.
In my home group, for instance, we have an avid atheist and a secular humanist who share just to prove that it is possible. Just a thought.
And I know that I've said this before in the forums and I've had different reactions (lol) but I also go to gay meetings and I have heard more secular viewpoints openly expressed there.
In my home group, for instance, we have an avid atheist and a secular humanist who share just to prove that it is possible. Just a thought.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 125
I wouldn't presume to give advice, but this is my experience: I'm an atheist as well. I just don't believe, and have had a very difficult time working the steps. I have what I think is a good sponsor. We've discussed the matter at length and he has suggested a variety of approaches to higher powers. None are satisfactory, though we've devoted hours and months toward them. We've stopped and restarted the steps three times over nine months. (I had a one-night relapse 5 months in.) When we're taking a break from the steps he has me read and discuss stories from the BB or other literature. We still meet every week for two hours, and attend three meetings in common. He is a sort of free-spirit type of guy, and is trying hard to help me find a higher power, but I always run into problems in later steps.
Sorry for the rambling, but I think about this a lot, as I still attend meetings daily. One thing I always try to do is to keep an open mind, and not to dismiss the experience of others, even when I don't share their belief.
Sorry for the rambling, but I think about this a lot, as I still attend meetings daily. One thing I always try to do is to keep an open mind, and not to dismiss the experience of others, even when I don't share their belief.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 6,666
supernatural
suːpəˈnatʃ(ə)r(ə)l
adjective
1.
(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
Well, that about settles it for me anyway! Maybe you should try it?
"You feel like an ant contemplating Chicago"
Only trying to help, peace
suːpəˈnatʃ(ə)r(ə)l
adjective
1.
(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
Well, that about settles it for me anyway! Maybe you should try it?
"You feel like an ant contemplating Chicago"
Only trying to help, peace
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Washington, MO
Posts: 2,306
I told my sponsor no more prayers (doing the third on knees in meeting was humiliating) and we would refer to HP as common sense---he agreed. If he had not I would have replaced him. That was 5 yrs. ago. He's since re-married his first ex and rarely goes to meetings (he always said I'd never stay sober w/mine). Last time I visited to do some painting for him we watched dog whisperer.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Heard a guy give a talk. Said he told his first sponsor that he was an atheist and did not believe in God.
His sponsor told him to say the 3rd step prayer the next morning first thing when he woke up.
Next day he saw his sponsor again. His sponsor asked him if he said the prayer?
He said "I told you I did not believe in God!"
His sponsor said "I did not ask you if you believed in God. I asked you if you said the prayer?"
Bottom line:
Sponsors are about following directions. Good directions. Bad directions. Absurd directions. Makes no difference.
IMO Directions are the first step in learning to live a principle driven life. When we place principles above personalities... principles replace rationalization, justification, minimization and denial. Without rationalization, thoughts of drinking have no foothold to get into our head in the first place.
His sponsor told him to say the 3rd step prayer the next morning first thing when he woke up.
Next day he saw his sponsor again. His sponsor asked him if he said the prayer?
He said "I told you I did not believe in God!"
His sponsor said "I did not ask you if you believed in God. I asked you if you said the prayer?"
Bottom line:
Sponsors are about following directions. Good directions. Bad directions. Absurd directions. Makes no difference.
IMO Directions are the first step in learning to live a principle driven life. When we place principles above personalities... principles replace rationalization, justification, minimization and denial. Without rationalization, thoughts of drinking have no foothold to get into our head in the first place.
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
I can appreciate that Boleo.
Here's a definition of principle from the American Heritage Dictionary: "b. The collectivity of moral or ethical standards or judgments: a decision based on principle rather than expediency."
In my own recovery, it was important that I find the core of myself. Who I am, what I find meaningful, and what I intend to do about it. Or, to at least become reaquainted with all that, as I'd lost touch over the ten year stretch of my alcoholic drinking career. My fundamental issue with AA and sponsorship was being led by another human addict. I guess some don't take issue with that though. Here again, I see perhaps a gender sensitivity and difference. But I'm guessing men would also understand where I am coming from, so I'm not so quick to chalk it up as a "gender" issue either.
Being sponsored/led/guided by another addict in recovery sounds great on the one hand. But then... find me a group of people with its principles are well aligned, and working properly and efficiently together.
If it was designed so that the one principle is to stay sober (which is AA's primary purpose), then I think that would've allowed for more variation in approach and application of the "sponsorship" don't you think? It seems that the more I read on here, the more it's evident just how different each person's sponsor is in style and approach and all, and yet the common thread seems to be the sponsors' adamancy for the sponsee to unquestioningly follow his/her directives.
I get it that it's about following directions. I simply have a problem with following someone else's directions when they work perfectly well for them, but don't seem to fit me.
I had to find my own way, and, yes it was lonely at times.
All that said, I live by specific principles. But as for how to implement... that takes careful consideration. I don't bully myself into acting on principle, on autopilot, in a black or white thinking style. The implementation is nuanced.
Here's a definition of principle from the American Heritage Dictionary: "b. The collectivity of moral or ethical standards or judgments: a decision based on principle rather than expediency."
In my own recovery, it was important that I find the core of myself. Who I am, what I find meaningful, and what I intend to do about it. Or, to at least become reaquainted with all that, as I'd lost touch over the ten year stretch of my alcoholic drinking career. My fundamental issue with AA and sponsorship was being led by another human addict. I guess some don't take issue with that though. Here again, I see perhaps a gender sensitivity and difference. But I'm guessing men would also understand where I am coming from, so I'm not so quick to chalk it up as a "gender" issue either.
Being sponsored/led/guided by another addict in recovery sounds great on the one hand. But then... find me a group of people with its principles are well aligned, and working properly and efficiently together.
If it was designed so that the one principle is to stay sober (which is AA's primary purpose), then I think that would've allowed for more variation in approach and application of the "sponsorship" don't you think? It seems that the more I read on here, the more it's evident just how different each person's sponsor is in style and approach and all, and yet the common thread seems to be the sponsors' adamancy for the sponsee to unquestioningly follow his/her directives.
I get it that it's about following directions. I simply have a problem with following someone else's directions when they work perfectly well for them, but don't seem to fit me.
I had to find my own way, and, yes it was lonely at times.
All that said, I live by specific principles. But as for how to implement... that takes careful consideration. I don't bully myself into acting on principle, on autopilot, in a black or white thinking style. The implementation is nuanced.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 76
Thanks for all the feedback. Just wanted to be more clear on the "higher power" thing. What I meant was that I don't believe in a higher power (outside of myself) that will listen to my prayers, interfere in my life and keep me sober - something like that.
Of course I believe that there are all kinds of "higher powers" in this world. Heck, alcohol has certainly been a higher power for me for a long time. I certainly don't think I control much in this world (though I'm pretty good at controlling doorknobs - ha). I do not believe myself to be God, but that doesn't mean that I believe anything else is God either. The universe is wild and mysterious, and there are far more things I don't know than things I do know. I simply don't believe in - and therefore can't rely on - some external supernatural "power" that will keep me sober.
That being said, I do believe that prayer can be helpful as a way to set intention or affirm positive actions and mindset. And I believe that there are external (not supernatural) "higher powers" (such as the fellowship of AA) that can help me to stay sober.
It's funny though, the more I try to explain myself, the more I feel like I'm digging myself into a hole. Honestly, religion/spirituality/atheism/etc. is not something I usually care to talk about much, and I don't think that it has much (if anything?) to do with my addiction problems. I guess I keep trying AA because it's the only program that has a solid support group, but I suppose if I can't use the support group without constantly getting hung up on the "God stuff," maybe it's just not going to work for me. (No blame toward AA here - it's my responsibility to make the program work for me or not.)
Of course I believe that there are all kinds of "higher powers" in this world. Heck, alcohol has certainly been a higher power for me for a long time. I certainly don't think I control much in this world (though I'm pretty good at controlling doorknobs - ha). I do not believe myself to be God, but that doesn't mean that I believe anything else is God either. The universe is wild and mysterious, and there are far more things I don't know than things I do know. I simply don't believe in - and therefore can't rely on - some external supernatural "power" that will keep me sober.
That being said, I do believe that prayer can be helpful as a way to set intention or affirm positive actions and mindset. And I believe that there are external (not supernatural) "higher powers" (such as the fellowship of AA) that can help me to stay sober.
It's funny though, the more I try to explain myself, the more I feel like I'm digging myself into a hole. Honestly, religion/spirituality/atheism/etc. is not something I usually care to talk about much, and I don't think that it has much (if anything?) to do with my addiction problems. I guess I keep trying AA because it's the only program that has a solid support group, but I suppose if I can't use the support group without constantly getting hung up on the "God stuff," maybe it's just not going to work for me. (No blame toward AA here - it's my responsibility to make the program work for me or not.)
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
