Soberpotamus

Here's the link to a free pdf of a new book published by AAAgnostica I just came across today. It's about 40 pages in length. I haven't read it yet, but I've skimmed through it. It's reviewed today on the AAAgnostica blog.

CousinA

Thank you for posting. I grabbed the PDF and gave it a quick look. I'm looking forward to reading in it's entirety.

-a

desypete

i have a read a little bit so far and i can certainly id with the writter on how to get around the aa god type of talk in aa and also the love and passion i have for aa yet not for a god, i also believe its so important that anyone can come to aa meetings and not feel they have to have a god in there life as we condemn people who will not or can not find this thing

i went everywhere looking for a god, from Jehovah witness to Mormon, studying the bible you name it i went on the hunt
i couldn't find it i tire so much of hearing people say they left aa as they couldnt get the god bit
the trick is to stick to aa and ignore the god bit as there is so much more to aa than a few members talking about how this god saved them etc

so i can certainly understand were the writer comes from in terms of how much impact this god things has on new comers and if they will stick around or not

its all well and good for members in aa who do believe in a god but then they think of themselves and not others who dont believe in a god

i have been lucky that the aa i come from is mixed with god believers and non god believers who live the program in there lives and try to be good kind and helpful to new comers without the need to brain wash or impart there own will on them

the members who do this can not see just what there doing as there convinced its god will there doing, and if you challenge them they are merely defending there god or the program
they dont really understand that the program is about change and changing from our old controlling natures into a more giving kind considerate type of being

this change takes years of practicing new ways to live or the rest of our lives in my case, rather than doing 12 steps and suddenly your a new person thanks to a god who has removed the drink compulsion, and took away all our bad behaviors
for me it doesnt do either aa was my place i went but only when i was beaten and they shown me how to not pick up a drink one day at a time
if they told me to pray to not pick up a drink i dont think i could of, as i had to do things to take my mind off it
ring up aa members if i had money for the call box, clean my flat, go out for a walk, you name it i had to do it and then get to a meeting were i found peace so i went to aa day and night for my first few months if not years such was my belief that aa worked

then i did the steps paying lips service to the god idea but beliving in aa as my higher power as it was this that got me sober
doint steps 4 and 5 shown me just what i am, how iam and how much damage i had caused all over my life
i didnt like me at all it was the first time i had really looked at just how low a person i was
then of course i was shown how ill i was in my mind as i never thought i was insane just a bad person in drink but a good guy when sober
i was certainly a good guy to the outside world when sober but no so much a good guy to those who lived with me or who loved me

anyway the steps worked for me by showing me what i am and also in step 12 showing me how to practise a new way of life by helping others

being around new comer drunks helps me remember where i have come from and keeps those mental pictures fresh in my mind so i practice this step more than any other step as its about me taking action and real action, not sitting in a meeting telling people how much a god has done for me and how much a god protected my family when i prayed for them and he answered as that means what about those others who prayed and got no answer ?
or worse like i found out in my own life when everyone i knew prayed for my 16 year old son to live through stomach cancer only for him to die in a painful horrible way

i have to live in this real world, i love aa with all my heart but even some aa memebers show how much they love there god more than a human being in pain and how they turn the other way simply because i dont say the things they want to hear

i am lucky to have some real good honest lovely people in aa who have helped me so much some believe in there god but they are the ones truely out there helping others as well and the ones who only want to hear what they want to hear

i dont know enough about aa agnostics but just reading the first few pages i can see the guy is a lot like me, in having to live life around aa rooms, there are many many more members who believe in aa and the steps but not the god side of things they to stay silent but out of respect i think for the members who do believe in god


one point i do wonder about is the coming out of the closet thing as i do tell people i dont believe in god as i do believe its important that anyone else in the room knows its ok if you dont believe in a god as someone else is in the room feeling and think just the same
but i still tell them to keep on coming back as i know aa works.

Archelon

Thank you much for this link.

Hawks

44 pages could have been summed in two words.

"Sour Grapes "

awuh1

I agree whole heartedly with Adam that the "Recovery Sciences" are not a threat to AA. There is no conflict whatsoever. The beliefs of some members to the contrary will not stop research in this area. There is no cause for concern.

Interesting how Adam explains the beliefs other people to himself. Here is an example, "Understanding that spirituality and god are terms employed when people have come to the edge of their comprehension helps me on a daily basis when I sit in AA meetings and listen".

It seems like he is projecting, and this explains how he fills the gaps in his own understanding. I'm glad this "helps" him. Could this "help" which he experiences be influencing how he has come to believe this about others? I hesitate to "acknowledge the comfort" this thinking gives him or to say that it "just smacks of mental laziness". If I did, wouldn't that be condescending?

Soberpotamus

Sure, I can see how you would arrive at the conclusion he's projecting and filling in gaps there. He's human.

Condescending? Not sure. Only you can answer that for yourself, Awuh.

For non-theists, atheists, non-believers, freethinkers... however they choose to label themselves... it's a point of experiencing being human in a world that can be understood most authentically via science, reasoning, empirical evidence, and the like. So I'd say, of course, it's not hard to see that a non-theist would take the position he has... going by what you've quoted there.

"Mental laziness" as descriptive of theists in general... I can see how that is condescending, and specifically so for those who choose faith in God, knowing that it is an act of faith (which is believing without seeing) that determines their relationship with a higher power.

Hawks

How does a non theist reconcile their belief in the scientific world?

Has anyone personally witnessed the emergence of life from primordial ooze?

Has Abiogenesis been scientifically proven?

What about the multiverse theory that Hawkings uses to maintain his non theism.

Can Hawkings or anyone prove that?

Or is there a faith at work in those belief systems too?

We all have to believe something I guess, ironically, to me it seems you must take some leaps of faith to maintain theism or atheism.

Same but different.

Soberpotamus

I guess those are questions for another thread, Hawks And you might want to talk to some scientists and physicists about it.

But I think there are a couple of quotes that many if not most non-theists would throw out there as a philosophical anchor: "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." and "The onus is on you to say why, the onus is not on the rest of us to say why not."

Soberpotamus

double post

Hawks

Russells teapot, flying spaghetti monster, etc.... I get it.

If lack of 100% concrete evidence is sufficient to dismiss things then the big bang theory is toast, as is primordial ooze and multiverse theory.

Which is kinda the point.

People believe all sorts of things for which there is no proof.

I can't muster up my God to appear in front of anyone, Hawkings can't take me outside our known universe to show me multiverse's

suki44883

Neither believers or non-believers can PROVE whether or not God exists. It is an argument that will NEVER be solved. Believe if you want and don't believe if you want. But don't try to shove your belief or non-belief down anyone's throat.

Stop trying to convince believers that there is no God and stop trying to convince non-believers that God exists. Believe whatever you want.

Soberpotamus

Apparently, some people have misunderstood the point of the thread.

suki44883

Yeah, there's a lot of that going around.

Hawks

Hazaarrrrr Suki

That would be an ideal world

Hawks

I got the point of the thread, provide more information to those who, like you, are uncomfortable with theism in AA.

A subculture within a subculture.

Soberpotamus

Hawks, speaking for myself only, it's more about finding my own comfort... I respect the rights of individuals to believe as they wish. I'm a humanist and vote accordingly.

Hawks

Then why disseminate information on how to be an atheist in AA?

The very foundations of which were built on Christian principles.

It's a rhetorical question anyway.

It makes YOU more comfortable.

Nice humanist principles.

Joe Nerv

I too read through it quickly, and am looking forward to a more complete reading. I liked it, and agree with a lot of points that are being made in the book. I don't feel it's coming from sour grapes at all. I think the dude is being honest with himself, found a way to make this spiritual program work for him, and is passing it along to others. 12th step work at it's absolute best, IMO.

And while I did sense a wee little bit of a condescending attitude, I actually think he did a great job of keeping that at bay. Given what an atheist has to often contend with at most most AA meetings, I think his attitude is commendable. I reserve the right to take that back though, upon a more thorough reading .

Looking forward to dropping this link into my ipad.

awuh1

Of course he's human. That goes without saying. It does not, however, excuse his poor reasoning. Especially while doing exactly what he is (falsely) accusing many of those "mentally lazy" theists of doing.

I value science, reasoning and empirical evidence as much as any atheist, non-believer or freethinker. In fact, probably more than most of them. I have no problem with anyone who wishes to experience their humanity primarily (or even solely) by these means. It's their choice. I guess what I find annoying is the superior and patronizing tone that's sometimes adopted while inferring that science, reasoning and empirical evidence must somehow be set aside in order to have a belief in God. That assumption is silly.

I have to ask myself why he isn't comfortable just speaking about his own beliefs, rather than speculating about the beliefs of others.