Originally Posted by Johnston
(Post 4616485)
Aside from step 1, parts of steps 4 and 5, and step 10, I too fail to see how a secularist can practice the 12 steps in any meaningful way. |
We don't usually open forums for things that are impossible, guys :) A number of people wanted a space like this where they could discuss working 12 steps outside a monotheistic JudeoChristian point of view. Paulmh was one of the first members here: http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...theist-aa.html If you can't understand it, thats fine - you don't need to :) D |
Ah, somehow I missed posts 5, 6 & 8 (above) before. Got it. Thanks all. |
Originally Posted by jazzfish
(Post 4457656)
There are people in AA who use the secular recovery tools and people following secular approaches who use AA tools. People put together an approach that works for them. |
Originally Posted by Dee74
(Post 4616542)
If you can't understand it, thats fine - you don't need to :) D |
Originally Posted by Johnston
(Post 4616947)
I understand it, I just don't agree with it. (o: NoelleR |
Originally Posted by NoelleR
(Post 4617428)
Most of my recovered friends, in AA, are atheists. What exactly is it with which you disagree....? ......that they could have worked AA's steps as atheists, or that they are sober.......? (o: NoelleR |
Originally Posted by Johnston
(Post 4617657)
Maybe a moral philosophy or world view of my understanding, but not a supernatural being. http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...where-god.html I don't care what you call it: God, Good, Higher Power, Hare Krishna, it don't matter. I found my God in my heart... nothing supernatural about it. I'm glad I did. I might not be here right now typing this if I hadn't. |
Originally Posted by dSober
(Post 4601849)
Q) What ideology maintains the existence of God is unknowable. The Tao that can be talked about is not the true “Tao”. Tao can not be represented as a particular entity, thing or image. Tao is not directly translatable to “God”. Any word we can define is not the Tao. The concept of a personified deity is foreign to a Taoist, as is the concept of the creation of the universe. Time is cyclical, not linear as in Western thinking. Tao is unknowable in “essence” but observable in “manifestations”. The Tao belongs neither to knowing or not knowing. It is paradoxically “nothing”, yet it is “in everything”. :a213: |
Hmm... I don't know much about Taoism, yet, but it sounds interesting. Your tagline I have a little trouble with though, even it is from the Big Book. Spiritualism makes perfect sense to me now. A.A. Recovery - The Missing Piece: The Spiritual Malady |
Originally Posted by Johnston
(Post 4617657)
I disagree that the steps as laid out in the big book are compatible with a secular world view. Elements of them can be, but as a whole they are not. Don't get me wrong, I like the steps because they provide a sound moral framework for people who might need a little rehabilitation in that area. But as a whole they exist to bring someone to a god of their understanding. Secularists tend not to be too keen on that. Maybe a moral philosophy or world view of my understanding, but not a supernatural being. You might as well tell me I should find a hobbit of my understanding or a Klingon warlord of my understanding. It carries the same connotation for me...fantasy thinking. ......and these are your understandings of AA and the AA Program (and what secularists believe), but they're not everybody's. When I was new to recovery and AA, I was informed that nobody was allowed to force their understandings of the program on me; they didn't get to define it, or tell me how it worked, or tell me how I needed to work the steps; this was left up to me. ...and because of this, I'm still sober (continuosly) some 20+ years later. (o: NoelleR |
Originally Posted by Johnston
(Post 4617657)
I disagree that the steps as laid out in the big book are compatible with a secular world view. I have found that most folks with a so called "secular world view" are materialists. For the most part, they have a Newtonian view of reality. For them space and time are fixed quantities, and particles of matter cannot exist in two places at the same time. To even suggest these things implies reference to the "supernatural". The trouble is, modern physics has shown us that these beliefs are, in fact, reality. Modern science has shown us that the mere the act of observing matter can, and does, change the properties of matter itself. This sounds supernatural, even to me, but it's far from fantasy. |
Been watching The Big Bang Theory much awuh1? :bigok: |
Originally Posted by awuh1
(Post 4623575)
Perhaps with your secular world view, but I don't think you speak for all people with a secular viewpoint. I have found that most folks with a so called "secular world view" are materialists. For the most part, they have a Newtonian view of reality. For them space and time are fixed quantities, and particles of matter cannot exist in two places at the same time. To even suggest these things implies reference to the "supernatural". The trouble is, modern physics has shown us that these beliefs are, in fact, reality. Modern science has shown us that the mere the act of observing matter can, and does, change the properties of matter itself. This sounds supernatural, even to me, but it's far from fantasy. |
At the end of the day, Alcohol does not discriminate. :a213: |
Originally Posted by Pete55
(Post 4624051)
At the end of the day, Alcohol does not discriminate. :a213: (o: NoelleR |
Johnston, What you may not understand about AA is that there are likely as many conceptions of God within AA, as there are AA members. Before AA even began, someone suggested to it's first founder that he should choose his own conception of God. Thus began a long tradition of tolerance for an incredibly wide range of beliefs. Many people think of “God” simply as a power greater than themselves. God for some means “Group Of Drunks” and for others it's “Good Orderly Direction”. Many of these conceptions are distinctly secular. Its all good as far as a vast majority of people in AA are concerned. There is no 'my God against your God' sort of talk. There is no evangelizing. There is no need. IMO the only thing that seems to be absolutely necessary is an open mind. |
Originally Posted by awuh1
(Post 4624422)
there are likely as many conceptions of God within AA, as there are AA members. http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...where-god.html |
Originally Posted by awuh1
(Post 4624422)
Many people think of “God” simply as a power greater than themselves. God for some means “Group Of Drunks” and for others it's “Good Orderly Direction”. Many of these conceptions are distinctly secular. Its all good as far as a vast majority of people in AA are concerned. For me, it's actually more forthcoming when AA members state point blank that an actual deity, outside of oneself, needs to be tapped into in order to fulfill the intent of the 12 steps. This "any higher power" has an air of bait and switch to it that I am very wary of. It speaks to a peculiarly American brand of evangelicalism that is part marketing, part giddy optimism, and part intellectual laziness. All covered with a veneer of what seems to pass for Christianity in this country nowadays. |
It would seem that you have decided on the motives and intent of AA members regardless of what they say. If some AA members state that they believe “an actual deity, outside of oneself, needs to be tapped into” then they are the ones who are “actually more forthcoming”, while those who don’t have “bait and switch” motivations. I think that this may be an example of when other “life experiences” might be getting in the way of seeing the truth. You seem intent on finding an evangelical motivation regardless of what is actually stated. BTW, I don’t think there is anything is wrong with “relying on gut (instincts), common sense (intellect), and life experiences (maturity)”. But don’t limit yourself to that. There was a time a few hundred years ago when instinct, intellect and life experience made it clear to nearly everyone, the world over, that the world was flat that and the sun, moon and stars circle us. |
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