eco

I really wonder? I think its because I have a lack of self control and am impulsive and do not think rationally about the costs and benefits before I drink. If alcoholism is not caused by impulse control problems, how do character defects make you drink? At the best I could say personality traits I was born with, and need to manage make me drink.

If there is a god, which I do not believe to be the case, this god made me with a lack of self control, I did not lose control because I am "jealous, stubborn, envious, a liar, a thief , a criminal, or ungrateful." I try, and have always tried, even while drinking to be the best person I could. I understand no one is perfect, especially me, I do not drink because I am not perfect.

I really just cannot rationalize the 12 steps. Does anyone have any thoughts on how they rationalize them? Why do you think contemplating character defects or making amends solves your problem?

Lenina

The way I see it, the 12 Steps are a way to learn more about the nature of the Beast and useful in recognizing and disabling the Addictive Voice. Rigorous honesty is needed to help discern the tricks of the AV. Does this make sense?

The resentments I harbor can be used to make me rationalize a drink. Ultimately, all rationalizing is just an excuse to drink, to feed the Beast.

im not very good at explaining things so I hope someone who is will be along soon to make better sense of what I'm trying to say.

love from Lenina

neferkamichael

Eco, the 12 steps are an invention by the founders of AA, and is a modification of the steps of the Oxford Group of which Bill W. was a member of before AA. There is no way to rationalize the 12 steps. Either do them or don't, but please don't fret over them.

Carlotta

Spot on Lenina.
I do not believe either that I drank because of my character defects or because I was spiritually crippled but character flaws certainly can give ammunition to the AV.
Like Lenina sayd, doing a fourth step inventory also mean being rigorously honest with oneself and looking at our part in our problems.
Like the 8 and 9s step it is also about taking responsibility for our actions.
4, 8 and 9 are about being an adult basically. If you read this board, there are a few members on this who are constantly blaming others for their misery and constantly making excuses and relapsing.
If one is able to do that, then the AV cannot use our circumstances (like my boss fired me, my wife is always nagging etc.) as an enticement into drinking/using.
I work an hybrid program (I also use some tools from AVRT and attend Women For Sobriety) and use the steps as a tool for self discovery and for living a more peaceful life not as a way to beat on myself. Working the steps also keep me from forming deep resentments which can be poison to anyone by taking room in one's head whether we are alcoholic or not.

DylanS

Hi Eco,

Thanks for your post; I have really questioned some similar trains of thought/belief, as well.

After reading, "Under the Influence" which gives a more up-to-date picture of the physical issue with alcohol(ism/dependence/however one defines it for themselves) I struggled with the 'character defects' thing. The line from the "Big Book", "Selfishness, self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our problems." was problematic for me. Either it's a physical issue (originally thought to be an allergy of sorts but now is better defined as a metabolic issue) or it's a moral problem. You can't have it both ways, right? You can't say it's not the person's fault that they have the physical issue and then turn around and say it's their fault due to a moral defect.

I know that, as a person who seriously considered a life of service in the monastic life, I am more selfless than a lot, and more selfish than some. On average, I don't think I'm much better or worse than anyone out there.

So, my current working theory is this: I have the metabolic issue. And, given that, I also happen to have the 'strange mental blank spots' with drinking/using (at certain times I don't have a mental defense). So, I think, for me, it's necessary to live a more stringent moral/spiritual life to keep this thing in check.

The extreme selfishness and dangerous behaviors I exhibited under the influence of powerful intoxicants (alcohol and opiates) aren't reflections of who I am; they're reflections of chronic use of powerful intoxicants and/or poisons. While I'm responsible for what I did under the influence, I do not believe those actions are reflective of my true nature.

I know of folks who successfully employ AVRT who neither embrace the metabolic issue of alcoholism or the need for a 'spiritual remedy'.

Bottom line: the remedy to (over)drinking and drug dependence seems to be highly individual. I think it can be somewhat confusing to find the path, or blend of paths, that work - at least that was my experience.

Bubovski

For many decades I philosophised about life, its meaning, how to enjoy, how to feel real, relate to others, lose my shyness, and find some meaning to life.
I studied philosophy, cognitive emotive therapy, read self help books and drank to extreme. Whatever I did learn it was very slow.

I battled with extreme religious fanaticism, atheism, agnosticism, humanism, rationalism, theosophy, addiction, alcoholism and many other isms.

Nineteen years ago after blowing .19, fear of losing my job (I was washing down benzos with moselle) I put myself in to Rehab for five weeks getting involved in some AA stuff, but not the steps. I was not hostile to the program;maybe too tied up with "the smarts" I had learned too hard.

I became a light to moderate to slightly heavy drinker for nineteen years while still on benzos, anti deps etc for some marginal improvement, but still predominantly stressed out and leading a miserable life.

Early this year I once again crashed badly and really got into the spirituality of AA.....THE STEPS, THE CAMARADERIE,GOD AS I CAN BEST UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT, REAL FRIENDS, TAKING ONE DAY AT A TIME.

I refuse to go back to my old philosophical rationalizations, which led to miseries, doubts, and confusion leading no where.

For the first time in my life I have really felt I am Home.

Boleo

I drank for 30+ years and was only a liar and a deadbeat the last 3 or 4 years. Not because I was a bad guy but because I would not let anything or anyone come between me and my bottle.

Alcohol grew to be #1 in my life. Alcohol ended up being my master. If I made someone a promise to do something or be somewhere, I usually ended up so drunk or hungover, I would be late or forget about it completely. None of my amends were for things I did the first two decades I drank.

fini

how do character defects make you drink? ........Why do you think contemplating character defects or making amends solves your problem?


off the bat: i haven't done the damn steps. i call them that because i keep wrestling with doing them, ongoing. my own private torture.
but i have thoughts and opinions on these things. my thoughts on the character defects thing are that no, it's not about how character defects in and of themselves make you drink (i still have all mine, and i don't drink), or that making amends fixes your drinking problem per se, but that working on these things and doing the steps improve your sober daily life in a way your life will be such that you can stay sober comfortably.

GracieLou

The defects, for me, are the problem. Seeing them, admitting them and then working to rid myself of them is the solution. The alcohol let me hide from my defects and in most cases use them to get what I wanted. The fact that I am an alcoholic and have no tolerance for the drink just made it all that much easier.

Here is a list of character defects.


1. anger, hatred
2. anxiety – a general way of viewing things with an eye toward what is wrong, what might be wrong, what has been wrong or what is going to be wrong. Excessive worry, especially about things I cannot change.
3. arrogance – Offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride.
4. closed mindedness – Contempt prior to investigation. Disregarding things and ideas just because they are new and unknown. Being unwilling to try things or follow suggestions. Failing to remain teachable. Having a mind firmly unreceptive to new ideas or arguments.
5. dependency, over dependency, co dependency – Relying on others to provide for us what we ought to provide for ourselves. Feeling we must be in a relationship, or must hold on to others who want to move on. Letting others control us to an extreme due to our fear of being alone, abandoned, or independent.
6. depression, pessimism – Not as a clinical condition, but as a way to generally see the dark side of things.
7. dishonesty – Sins of omission and commission. Telling lies, hiding things, telling half truths or pretending something is so that isn’t. Withholding important information. Adding untrue details to stories and situations. Stealing, cheating, taking things that aren’t ours and that we aren’t entitled to.
8. controlling attitude toward people, places and things – Trying to control others by manipulation, bribery, punishment, withholding things or tricking them into acting as we wish, even when we believe it is in their best interest to do so. Failing to be equal partners with others and to consider their knowledge and opinions.
9. fear
10. gluttony, greed - Wanting and taking too much: food, sex, time, money, comfort, leisure, material possessions, attention, security. Acquiring things (material things, relationships, attention) at the expense of others.
11. gossiping – Speaking or writing about others in a negative manner, especially to get them in trouble or to feel superior to them and bond with someone else against the target of the gossip. When I find myself talking about someone, I must pause and check out why I am mentioning their name.
12. humility, a lack of humility – Feeling better than and worse than others, and being self centered.
13. impatience – Being frustrated by waiting, wanting often to be some time in the future, wanting something to change or improve rather than accepting it as it is.
14. intolerance – Not accepting people or things for who or what they are.
15. inventory taking, being judgmental – Noticing and listing, out loud or to ourselves, the faults of others.
16. jealousy and envy – Wanting what others have, feeling we don’t have enough or deserve more, wishing we had what others do instead of them. This applies to material possessions like houses, cars, money and such. It also applies to nonmaterial things like relationships, a nice family, children, parents, friends and partners, and fulfilling work relationships. We can envy others their looks and physical appearance, their talents and physical abilities or attributes such as thinness, tallness, sports ability or musical talent.
17. laziness, procrastination, sloth – Not doing as much as is reasonable for us to do. Putting things off repeatedly. Not carrying our own load as much as we are able. Letting others provide things for us that we ought to get for ourselves.
18. perfectionism – Expecting or demanding too much from ourselves or others. Treating things that aren’t perfect as not good enough. Not recognizing a good try or progress.
19. prejudice – Pre-judging people based on a group they belong to. Negative feelings about someone based on their religion, race, nationality, age, disability, sexual orientation, accent, politics, economic status, physical characteristics like height, weight, hair style, clothing style, physical fitness.
20. rationalization, minimizing and justifying, self-justification – Saying and/or believing I had good motives for bad behavior. Saying that I did bad things for good reasons, or that what I did really wasn’t that bad.
21. resentment – The feeling of displeasure or indignation at some act, remark, person, etc., regarded as causing injury or insult.
22. rigidity and fear of change
23. self centeredness, selfishness – Spending excessive time thinking about myself. Considering myself first in situations. Not having enough regard for others or thinking about how circumstances hurt or help others. Thinking about what I can get out of situations and people, what’s in it for me? Spending too much time considering my appearance, acquiring things for myself, pampering myself, indulging myself.
24. self pity

Some of these defects were the reason I drank to begin with while others are the reasons I continued to drink because they would not allow me to see my problem. My defects were more powerful then my sanity. I have done many things that a normal non-drinking person would not do. I can stop drinking and appear normal but one or more of these defects is going to at some point drive me back to the bottle.

If I can identify my defects, admit honestly I have them, then I can work on them. I won’t work on something I won’t admit I have. It is no different then the alcoholic that will not admit they are an alcoholic. They will continue to drink until they honestly admit to themselves they have a problem and then admit they need help. The old saying, if nothing changes, nothing changes.

Just because I stop drinking does not make the defects I have go away.

jazzfish

Many alcoholics, especially myself, hold a lot of shame and embarrassment about our actions which can lead to such low self-esteem that taking positive steps in recovery is near impossible. I was at such a low point that I simply had no idea what to do next and my life was completely without purpose.

The way I look at the 12 steps is that they provide a systematic set of actions (something to do) to relief guilt and shame (make amends), to rebuild self esteem, and to provide a general life purpose. Working on these things can also stimulate our cognitive thinking which is needed for our long term recovery.

Threshold

They are based on psychology which isn't always rational or logical.

Since substance abuse isn't rational or logical, doesn't surprise me that some of the methods of addressing it aren't either.

Mountainmanbob

Not All Twins Are Alike

The most obvious finding of this research project is that not all twins are alike. In fact, twins within a pair are very different from one another. Even when twin pairs look alike, talk alike, and enjoy very similar interests, they are still unique people. Some twins actually choose to be different from each other for a variety of personal reasons. Their choices can be, and often are, influenced by the environment, including the parenting they received.

wir

I don't try to rationalize the steps. They're uncomfortable and foreign and weird but I see them working for others so I'm willing to believe they'll work for me if I honestly try. And if they don't, it's not like I'll be worse off than when I started.

FreedomSought

I think the 12 steps are arbitrary and held in common. And it's good that way. For example if we smoke pot because we're anxious... We are patching over that anxious feeling, needing more and more to overcome a growing anxiety created by factors which we're ignoring.

They say if we have a problem, then smoke pot, we have 2 problems now. Our original problem, and we smoked pot. So if we do that twice, now we have 4 problems. The 2 problems we had, and the two times smoking pot. And a 5th problem if we're out of pot now! Then picking up more pot again is a 6th stress factor, because we're breaking the law, talking to shady people, spending money!

Whereas if we can be conscious of our original problem that made us anxious whatever it was, or at least say before we pick up "I'm anxious", and talk to someone else, they can help us through that anxious feeling and then we could just feel alright because we dealt with something today.

If we're always rewarding problematic thinking with a drug (which is Pavlovian mechanism) then we are going to have hypertrophy of the imagination and come up with a huge vortex of problems to live in. Making up a problem is a trick our minds can learn, like fetching a stick is a trick a dog can learn, and whatever is reinforced, grows. A lot of this happens unconsciously.

I always personally get annoyed at the whole "don't interpret" thing. I don't like the idea of being indoctrinated. That was sometimes why I smoked pot, so all of this BS of life could be a little less real. I went out last time because if I didn't want to deal with Me to begin with, I sure as hell didn't want to live with an "indoctrinated" Me.

DayTrader

woops.....nevermind.

didn't realize I was in "secular." sorry.....

LevelingUp

For me, alcoholism is a symptom of a larger problem. I abused substances and became addicted to the use of them because of my character defects.

Having come to that conclusion has allowed me to take personal inventories and review them with a critical eye. Where, in any given situation, am I being selfish. That reads rather simple, and it is a simple concept, but recognizing, admitting to and taking action to correct that character defect is very important to my recovery.

Thinking and acting selfishly, always expecting that others live up to my standards, is poisonous to my sobriety. Learning to accept that I may not always be right, accept others for who they are, accept that I am not the most important person in the room is crucial to learning about myself and crucial to living in solution.

If I didn't approach my life in this way I would be one negative, resentful SOB and that, in the past, has led to me abusing substances.

Self-limiting beliefs have always been a bit of a thing and can also be seen as (ironically and for lack of better terming) defects of character. Self-limiting beliefs, for me, are begat of fear; fear of not fitting in, fear of being ostracized, fear of not being good enough, fear of failure etc. These fears and self-limiting beliefs are what have always held me back from realizing my true potential. I used to hide from these beliefs by drinking until the drinking became abusive. Then I drank because I was addicted. Abusive drinking led to worsened self-limiting beliefs which led to more drinking and so on.

Sooo, for me, identifying and working on defects of character has been pivotal for living a healthier, self-aware life.

foolsgold66

Lack of impulse control resulting from intoxication. It's a connected spiral. Character is really just about expectations.

MIRecovery

The best answer is read the first 164 pages of the Big Book.

MythOfSisyphus

I dunno...it doesn't seem to me that addiction is or is related to a character defect at all. There seems to be a strong genetic component to it.

Boleo

I do know...it seems to me that my addiction is related to a single character defect; delusional thinking.