What does alcoholism have to do with character defects and harming others?
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Originally Posted by caboblanco 
lol..you are the one claiming you believe in a negative. you have no proof but at least im not assuming thing. I'm just sticking with the most likely truth. just admit that you believe in something because other people told you or that you have blind faith and not for valid reason.
it's hard to prove a negative or something people just made up
it's hard to prove a negative or something people just made up
Further, I'm trying to figure out why you are here. This must be a tremendous waste of time for you if you simply needed to choose not to pour alcohol in your mouth and call it good.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caboblanco
alcoholism has nothing to do with character defects or harming other.
It has to do with drinking too much..and that's it
I am inclined to agree with you.
if this were so, then simply drinking less would wipe out alcoholism.
funny, i tried that simply drinking less thing...didn't work out too well for me...
Originally Posted by caboblanco
alcoholism has nothing to do with character defects or harming other.
It has to do with drinking too much..and that's it
I am inclined to agree with you.
if this were so, then simply drinking less would wipe out alcoholism.
funny, i tried that simply drinking less thing...didn't work out too well for me...
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Originally Posted by foolsgold66
Your statements often come across that you are asserting there is some book of 'facts' that one can check out of the library, and that we are all fools for not always assuming the simplest explanation is the correct one..
Well i don't mean to offend anyone because I don't believe in the status quo. I could ASSUME you are calling me a fool because I don't believe in the status quo... Futhermore I don't call anyone a fool for believing in it. It sure seems like you want to put a guilt trip on me or throw me under the bus. I do what you ask and show your flaws in your argument and you have to resort to finding a way to make me feel unwelcome by searching out other posts of mine and telling me what you don't agree about them. That is why I don't go to AA. You are allowed to have different opinions here as far as I know.
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caboblanco,
i'm interested in knowing what you think this 'status quo' is that you're talking about. status quo usually refers to the way things are, so i'm curious as to what you mean by it.
let me ask you and Kate also: if alcoholism is simply about drinking too much, what were your experiences with trying to drink less?
i'm interested in knowing what you think this 'status quo' is that you're talking about. status quo usually refers to the way things are, so i'm curious as to what you mean by it.
let me ask you and Kate also: if alcoholism is simply about drinking too much, what were your experiences with trying to drink less?
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Originally Posted by caboblanco
Well i don't mean to offend anyone because I don't believe in the status quo. I could ASSUME you are calling me a fool because I don't believe in the status quo... Futhermore I don't call anyone a fool for believing in it. It sure seems like you want to put a guilt trip on me or throw me under the bus. I do what you ask and show your flaws in your argument and you have to resort to finding a way to make me feel unwelcome by searching out other posts of mine and telling me what you don't agree about them. That is why I don't go to AA. You are allowed to have different opinions here as far as I know.
We actually do have more in common than one might think though, because I don't go to AA either and do also hold some opinions that aren't accepted by many, but not so much pertaining to the subject matter here. I really just think whatever works for the individual is fine.
Of course you have a right to your opinion. Regardless, I apologize for calling you out, I should have simply moved on to the next post.
FG
Laozi Old Man
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Originally Posted by caboblanco
it's hard to prove a negative or something people just made up
I have to admit that you are pretty good at this debating business. However, as Abe L and Bill W used to say;
"Sometimes the good is the enemy of the best".
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Along the same lines it's tempting to be pedantic and defend a vary narrow personal definition of something. The reality is that the main important thing is that we don't drink. Do that first, argue over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin later.
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Originally Posted by MythOfSisyphus
Along the same lines it's tempting to be pedantic and defend a vary narrow personal definition of something. The reality is that the main important thing is that we don't drink. Do that first, argue over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin later.
Laozi Old Man
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Originally Posted by foolsgold66
... Your statements often come across that you are asserting there is some book of 'facts' that one can check out of the library, and that we are all fools for not always assuming the simplest explanation is the correct one.
"Selfishness - self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate. Sometimes they hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but we invariably find that at some time in the past we have made decisions based on self which later placed us in a position to be hurt.
So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so. Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kills us!"
(page 62)
"Our liquor was but a symptom. So we had to get down to causes and conditions."
(page 64)
"The alcoholic is like a tornado roaring his way through the lives of others. Hearts are broken. Sweet relationships are dead. Affections have been uprooted. Selfish and inconsiderate habits have kept the home in turmoil. We feel a man is unthinking when he says that sobriety is enough."
(page 82)
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To me the purpose of a 12 step program is to teach me how to put a gap between my thoughts and emotions and acting on them. It teaches me that I don't have to run on auto pilot and I have a choice in how I will respond to what is happening around me both internal and external.
Your friend,
Your friend,
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I haven't looked at this thread for a while, so apols if I'm not up to speed fully. Just having read the last couple of pages, I've twigged that - just for me - it's better that I try not to torment myself too much with this kind of topic.
Those who know me a bit here will know that I'm prone, on one hand, to enjoying this type of vigorous debate - indeed, I celebrate that SR is the only place in my current life where I can partake of such debates. I certainly can't in my AA circles, alas.
Which leads me to the 'on the other hand' part. To this day, relapses and all [and I'm battling like hell with yet another one], I personally find I cannot 'do' the whole character defect thing vis a vis my alcoholism. I've given huge amounts of thought, writing, and such over many many years to my 'defects' - if you want to use that term for the sake of this thread. I did that well before I even began to get into the idea that I needed to stop drinking, go to a detox / rehab to begin that, and everything that accompanied this journey of the past few years.
Given that context, I'd go so far as to say [ducking for cover here] that the continual insistence in AA of the defects thing is - FOR ME - rather more dispiriting and despair-inducing by far than the standard complaint about 'powerless over alcohol'. I sure as hell know I'm powerless 'over alcohol', once I pick up that first drink. I long ago accepted that.
But, even AS an AA member, I seek out ways of approaching the Steps in reading and reflecting upon writers way beyond the confines of the BB, and most of the 'approved' AA literature. This makes it extremely difficult for me to continue going to, or returning to, AA meetings, although I generally do for the companionship and for somewhere simply to go on days I'm trying to be / stay sober. So many talk about 'keeping it simple'. But that aphorism usually doesn't seem to include the freedom to work out the spirit of the Steps and such in ways that don't conform.
Many people have and do find taking on 99% or 100% of the AA package to be just the ticket for THEM. Please remember that not everyone in your local meetings want to do that. I try to remember, for myself, when I feel super irritated by the ideology of AA, that 'the only requirement for membership is a DESIRE to stop drinking'. Anything which is laid on top of that, to me, is for some, well frankly, deeply offensive. Not everyone wants to take on board the letter of AA law, merely the spirit of meetings and that desire to have a life free of drinking.
Those who know me a bit here will know that I'm prone, on one hand, to enjoying this type of vigorous debate - indeed, I celebrate that SR is the only place in my current life where I can partake of such debates. I certainly can't in my AA circles, alas.
Which leads me to the 'on the other hand' part. To this day, relapses and all [and I'm battling like hell with yet another one], I personally find I cannot 'do' the whole character defect thing vis a vis my alcoholism. I've given huge amounts of thought, writing, and such over many many years to my 'defects' - if you want to use that term for the sake of this thread. I did that well before I even began to get into the idea that I needed to stop drinking, go to a detox / rehab to begin that, and everything that accompanied this journey of the past few years.
Given that context, I'd go so far as to say [ducking for cover here] that the continual insistence in AA of the defects thing is - FOR ME - rather more dispiriting and despair-inducing by far than the standard complaint about 'powerless over alcohol'. I sure as hell know I'm powerless 'over alcohol', once I pick up that first drink. I long ago accepted that.
But, even AS an AA member, I seek out ways of approaching the Steps in reading and reflecting upon writers way beyond the confines of the BB, and most of the 'approved' AA literature. This makes it extremely difficult for me to continue going to, or returning to, AA meetings, although I generally do for the companionship and for somewhere simply to go on days I'm trying to be / stay sober. So many talk about 'keeping it simple'. But that aphorism usually doesn't seem to include the freedom to work out the spirit of the Steps and such in ways that don't conform.
Many people have and do find taking on 99% or 100% of the AA package to be just the ticket for THEM. Please remember that not everyone in your local meetings want to do that. I try to remember, for myself, when I feel super irritated by the ideology of AA, that 'the only requirement for membership is a DESIRE to stop drinking'. Anything which is laid on top of that, to me, is for some, well frankly, deeply offensive. Not everyone wants to take on board the letter of AA law, merely the spirit of meetings and that desire to have a life free of drinking.
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Alcoholism has everything to do with character defects (irrational thinking). Why in the world would anyone drink their selves into oblivion if they weren't trying to escape reality. Are you saying that their just chasing a high and drinking too much. Why not get high off reality. The twelve steps lead us to have realistic expectations. Live life on lives terms. In my own words, the God of my understanding who reveals the truth to me if I let Him in!!!!!
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Alcohol is a highly addictive substance so people become addicted, some more easily than others. Many of the issues associated with alcoholism are the result of the addiction, not the cause of it. I think it's very important to make that distinction.
Self recovered Self discovered
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It's a simple understanding of causality. If you dismiss the linear concept of time and causality then the distinction is unnecessary, but this understanding permits a useful and effective way to fix stuff. We cannot fix the results of the addiction without addressing the source. It makes little sense to me to tell someone to address the anxiety and the shame of addiction and other behaviours that follow from that without telling them to quit drinking first. Stop drinking, then see if you need to fix other stuff.
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Originally Posted by Joe Nerv
Why?
How do you feel that distinction would be helpful to someone trying to get or stay sober?
How do you feel that distinction would be helpful to someone trying to get or stay sober?
That's a very good question and I think freshstart57 summed it up nicely. It does raise the ages old which came first the chicken or the egg question. We all know that alcoholism causes a whole host of physical and mental health issues. The most logical approach is to get rid of the addiction first and see how many of the other issues stick around.
I do understand that you could counter argue that some can't stop without a spiritual awakening but that's a circular argument you really can't win. If one truely believes that there is nothing the other side could say that would matter anyhow.
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We all know that alcoholism causes a whole host of physical and mental health issues. The most logical approach is to get rid of the addiction first and see how many of the other issues stick around.
seems the "problem" in discussions such as this is that some conflate alcoholism with addiction while others do not.
some say "get rid of the addiction first" while others say alcoholism cannot be "got rid" of.
I do understand that you could counter argue that some can't stop without a spiritual awakening
mmm...not sure, but don't think i've ever heard anyone say that you need a spiritual awakening in order to stop drinking.
for myself, i used to have the very linear view of causality ("drinking too much for too long got me addicted and what i need to do is stop and get unaddicted and ..."), but later, with more time sober, could see that this did not, in fact, fit my own experience. it was an arduous process, one which i did not enjoy, but seeing the reality of my alcoholism as something different from "addiction" is the only way to not contradict my own lived experience of it.
Many of the issues associated with alcoholism are the result of the addiction, not the cause of it. I think it's very important to make that distinction.
yes, i think that's right. there are results of addiction to alcohol. there are also "issues associated with alcoholism" that have nothing to do with being a result of addiction.
in my mind, the importance of the distinction BTSO mentions doesn't much matter in first getting sober, but is impactful in the later contentedly staying sober.
seems the "problem" in discussions such as this is that some conflate alcoholism with addiction while others do not.
some say "get rid of the addiction first" while others say alcoholism cannot be "got rid" of.
I do understand that you could counter argue that some can't stop without a spiritual awakening
mmm...not sure, but don't think i've ever heard anyone say that you need a spiritual awakening in order to stop drinking.
for myself, i used to have the very linear view of causality ("drinking too much for too long got me addicted and what i need to do is stop and get unaddicted and ..."), but later, with more time sober, could see that this did not, in fact, fit my own experience. it was an arduous process, one which i did not enjoy, but seeing the reality of my alcoholism as something different from "addiction" is the only way to not contradict my own lived experience of it.
Many of the issues associated with alcoholism are the result of the addiction, not the cause of it. I think it's very important to make that distinction.
yes, i think that's right. there are results of addiction to alcohol. there are also "issues associated with alcoholism" that have nothing to do with being a result of addiction.
in my mind, the importance of the distinction BTSO mentions doesn't much matter in first getting sober, but is impactful in the later contentedly staying sober.
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Originally Posted by fini
We all know that alcoholism causes a whole host of physical and mental health issues. The most logical approach is to get rid of the addiction first and see how many of the other issues stick around.
seems the "problem" in discussions such as this is that some conflate alcoholism with addiction while others do not.
some say "get rid of the addiction first" while others say alcoholism cannot be "got rid" of.
I do understand that you could counter argue that some can't stop without a spiritual awakening
mmm...not sure, but don't think i've ever heard anyone say that you need a spiritual awakening in order to stop drinking.
for myself, i used to have the very linear view of causality ("drinking too much for too long got me addicted and what i need to do is stop and get unaddicted and ..."), but later, with more time sober, could see that this did not, in fact, fit my own experience. it was an arduous process, one which i did not enjoy, but seeing the reality of my alcoholism as something different from "addiction" is the only way to not contradict my own lived experience of it.
Many of the issues associated with alcoholism are the result of the addiction, not the cause of it. I think it's very important to make that distinction.
yes, i think that's right. there are results of addiction to alcohol. there are also "issues associated with alcoholism" that have nothing to do with being a result of addiction.
in my mind, the importance of the distinction BTSO mentions doesn't much matter in first getting sober, but is impactful in the later contentedly staying sober.
seems the "problem" in discussions such as this is that some conflate alcoholism with addiction while others do not.
some say "get rid of the addiction first" while others say alcoholism cannot be "got rid" of.
I do understand that you could counter argue that some can't stop without a spiritual awakening
mmm...not sure, but don't think i've ever heard anyone say that you need a spiritual awakening in order to stop drinking.
for myself, i used to have the very linear view of causality ("drinking too much for too long got me addicted and what i need to do is stop and get unaddicted and ..."), but later, with more time sober, could see that this did not, in fact, fit my own experience. it was an arduous process, one which i did not enjoy, but seeing the reality of my alcoholism as something different from "addiction" is the only way to not contradict my own lived experience of it.
Many of the issues associated with alcoholism are the result of the addiction, not the cause of it. I think it's very important to make that distinction.
yes, i think that's right. there are results of addiction to alcohol. there are also "issues associated with alcoholism" that have nothing to do with being a result of addiction.
in my mind, the importance of the distinction BTSO mentions doesn't much matter in first getting sober, but is impactful in the later contentedly staying sober.
For me, my concept and understanding of addiction means my mindset is prone to things that release dopamine and this feeling will overpower everything else. This create an unhealthy and unsustainable way of living. I get tunnel vision when I like something and it makes me feel good and therefore, I will abuse it over and over, creating among other things and imbalance in my life. I visualize my addictions being a merry go round and alcohol to me is just one of the unhealthy addictions. Others include drugs, sex when it's to just climax, shopping, eating sugars or saturated fat, smoking, gambling.
What I have found is when I stop one my mind and body naturally fights for the next. I can't stop everything and the growth seems to be in becoming aware of this phenomena and developing techniques to not act on the impulses.
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