Secular advice
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 89
Secular advice
I think it is selfish and egotistical to believe the only better, or higher thing, than myself is an omnipotent God. This is what I believe is higher than myself.
1) A hero who is a true and good person.
Practical advice: Find this person. Befriend them. Spend time with them. Learn from them. Enrich yourself in the process.
2) Civilization and society and the protections they afford us. There's a reason why your neighbor doesn't beat you on the head and steal your property. 90% of the world lacks these protections, so consider yourself lucky.
Practical advice: Read the philosophical underpinnings of law, why man initially created it, and why it serves as the foundation of free countries.
3) Intellectual reason and the logical objectivity it brings. Along with the wonders they afford us. Also the more subjective aspects of humanity to include art and music.
Practical advice: Read. Read something that makes you think. Go to film festivals and relish in the human experience. See both the beauty and faults of being human. Go to a museum. Even if you don't get art, just go and ask yourself, why do people think this is important. Relate to it.
You can believe in your fellow man...and he too can believe in you. And we can use this rationale to move humankind forward through cooperation.
Yes, I am an agnostic. Maybe there is a God, But I believe it would be silly not to give me entrance into heaven because I am a good person who would never intentionally harm another human being. If not, then he is not a God I would wish to believe in anyway.
The key alternative to God for me is enriching myself for the sake of humility. The practical aspects of this coin is GO DO SOMETHING, so that you're not sitting around with little or no stimulus. Keep your mind busy, and you will find that new person in yourself that doesn’t need alcohol.
But always admit that you know nothing, Aristotle said this was the mark of a wise man anyway.
Good luck
1) A hero who is a true and good person.
Practical advice: Find this person. Befriend them. Spend time with them. Learn from them. Enrich yourself in the process.
2) Civilization and society and the protections they afford us. There's a reason why your neighbor doesn't beat you on the head and steal your property. 90% of the world lacks these protections, so consider yourself lucky.
Practical advice: Read the philosophical underpinnings of law, why man initially created it, and why it serves as the foundation of free countries.
3) Intellectual reason and the logical objectivity it brings. Along with the wonders they afford us. Also the more subjective aspects of humanity to include art and music.
Practical advice: Read. Read something that makes you think. Go to film festivals and relish in the human experience. See both the beauty and faults of being human. Go to a museum. Even if you don't get art, just go and ask yourself, why do people think this is important. Relate to it.
You can believe in your fellow man...and he too can believe in you. And we can use this rationale to move humankind forward through cooperation.
Yes, I am an agnostic. Maybe there is a God, But I believe it would be silly not to give me entrance into heaven because I am a good person who would never intentionally harm another human being. If not, then he is not a God I would wish to believe in anyway.
The key alternative to God for me is enriching myself for the sake of humility. The practical aspects of this coin is GO DO SOMETHING, so that you're not sitting around with little or no stimulus. Keep your mind busy, and you will find that new person in yourself that doesn’t need alcohol.
But always admit that you know nothing, Aristotle said this was the mark of a wise man anyway.
Good luck
Knucklehead
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Davenport, WA
Posts: 4,005
Originally Posted by crisco 
You are a speck when compared to the infinite.
DK
Last edited by doorknob; 08-30-2009 at 02:16 PM.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 271
In my mind, the whole idea of immortality is egotistical - probably the purest form of it. And since I do not believe in my own immortality, my focus in life revolves around future generations. So I'm right with you on that. I'll also second your suggestion that it's good to keep oneself challenged intellectually.
You know, I had a professor who believes that Socrates was an atheist who hopped up the god/goddess thang to keep from being accused of atheism. Since he was eventually convicted of it (that was the "crime" that got him executed), I wonder if my professor's thoughts don't have some validity. Of course, in mentor terms, Aristotle would have been his grandson . . . in addition to being the *real* father of science.
There are heroes aplenty to be found but -IMO - anyone who thinks of him/herself in that way, or even has ambitions in that direction - is automatically disqualified.
Thanks for your thought-provoking post.
You know, I had a professor who believes that Socrates was an atheist who hopped up the god/goddess thang to keep from being accused of atheism. Since he was eventually convicted of it (that was the "crime" that got him executed), I wonder if my professor's thoughts don't have some validity. Of course, in mentor terms, Aristotle would have been his grandson . . . in addition to being the *real* father of science.
There are heroes aplenty to be found but -IMO - anyone who thinks of him/herself in that way, or even has ambitions in that direction - is automatically disqualified.
Thanks for your thought-provoking post.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
The highest form of egomania, almost impossible to grasp to me in it's infinite egoism, is the creation of a God in your own image.
The universe is itself but a speck, and isn't nearly the sum of all things, however I am of that speck, therefore part of that infinite, if I am of something it's impossible for it to be above or below me, it is me.
However, if I exist inside that universe, yet am able to have that universe and everything in it inside my head, isn't that a mathematical impossibility?
To me, arguing about the non existence of God is as much a waste of time as arguing about the existence of God, equally fruitless pastimes that are unprovable.
I think, therefore I am
wrong
The universe is higher than yourself. The universe is the everything and the sum of all things. It represents the infinite.
You are a speck when compared to the infinite.
You are a speck when compared to the infinite.
However, if I exist inside that universe, yet am able to have that universe and everything in it inside my head, isn't that a mathematical impossibility?
To me, arguing about the non existence of God is as much a waste of time as arguing about the existence of God, equally fruitless pastimes that are unprovable.
I think, therefore I am
wrong
Reach Out and Touch Faith
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: On a Sailboat
Posts: 3,871
Originally Posted by Bren
I approve of this post, but don't understand why there would be a secular section. Isn't a 12 step program secular? I always looked at it that way
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
Originally Posted by Overman
But always admit that you know nothing,
Doesn't that contradict the purpose of the original post?
lol
Doesn't that contradict the purpose of the original post?
lol
the first words in the Tao Te Ching are "That which can be explained isn't the Tao", and basically said "Those that know of The Tao know that it can't be explained, so if someone speaks of the Tao, it means they don't know it"
Then he went on for something like 54 chapters
awesome
I am a taoist closer to anything else, so such contradictions amuse me vastly
I spent a couple of years knowing I knew nothing, which made me vastly superior to those who think they knew
Ego is a lot of fun
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,126
Originally Posted by Bren
I approve of this post, but don't understand why there would be a secular section. Isn't a 12 step program secular? I always looked at it that way
Originally Posted by Alera
This section exists for several reasons. We started with just a Secular section for those working secular programs such as SMART Recovery and LifeRing/SOS. Soon we found people who were working the twelve steps felt they would enjoy a place they could discuss the 12 Step programs from a more spiritual/non-religious point of view. That is one of the reasons for this forum.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I always thought this forum was started, not only for discussions of SMART or Life Ring, but also for those seeking help in working a secular 12-step program [not from a more spiritual/non-religious point of view (which is exatcly what AA say that it is---spiritual/non-religious), but secular, which is definitely NOT spiritual]. In fact, Just to remind you, Alera, of your post in the above sticky....:
"Just a reminder
This forum is for those who are working a Secular Recovery in a 12-Step program.
This is the place to discuss your experiences, strength and hope in these programs. It is the place to discuss your concerns with working a secular recovery as well.
However, this is not the place to bash AA/NA or the founders of these programs."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In answer to your question, Bren, NO, 12 step programs are NOT secular; while some folks see them as religious, they claim to be spiritual, but never secular (which is the opposite of both religious and spiritual)......
Religious----
1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity <a religious person> <religious attitudes>
2 : of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances <joined a religious order>
3 a : scrupulously and conscientiously faithful b : fervent, zealous
Spiritual----
1 : of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit : incorporeal <spiritual needs>
2 a : of or relating to sacred matters <spiritual songs> b : ecclesiastical rather than lay or temporal <spiritual authority> <lords spiritual>
3 : concerned with religious values
4 : related or joined in spirit <our spiritual home> <his spiritual heir>
5 a : of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena b : of, relating to, or involving spiritualism
Secular----
1 a : of or relating to the worldly or temporal <secular concerns> b : not overtly or specifically religious <secular music> c : not ecclesiastical or clerical <secular courts> <secular landowners>
2 : not bound by monastic vows or rules; specifically : of, relating to, or forming clergy not belonging to a religious order or congregation <a secular priest>
3 a : occurring once in an age or a century b : existing or continuing through ages or centuries c : of or relating to a long term of indefinite duration <secular inflation>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As you can see, one might see a correlation between spirituality and religious, but not secular; secular would be totally opposite of both spirituality or religious.
NoelleR
I approve of this post, but don't understand why there would be a secular section. Isn't a 12 step program secular? I always looked at it that way
Originally Posted by Alera
This section exists for several reasons. We started with just a Secular section for those working secular programs such as SMART Recovery and LifeRing/SOS. Soon we found people who were working the twelve steps felt they would enjoy a place they could discuss the 12 Step programs from a more spiritual/non-religious point of view. That is one of the reasons for this forum.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I always thought this forum was started, not only for discussions of SMART or Life Ring, but also for those seeking help in working a secular 12-step program [not from a more spiritual/non-religious point of view (which is exatcly what AA say that it is---spiritual/non-religious), but secular, which is definitely NOT spiritual]. In fact, Just to remind you, Alera, of your post in the above sticky....:
"Just a reminder
This forum is for those who are working a Secular Recovery in a 12-Step program.
This is the place to discuss your experiences, strength and hope in these programs. It is the place to discuss your concerns with working a secular recovery as well.
However, this is not the place to bash AA/NA or the founders of these programs."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In answer to your question, Bren, NO, 12 step programs are NOT secular; while some folks see them as religious, they claim to be spiritual, but never secular (which is the opposite of both religious and spiritual)......
Religious----
1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity <a religious person> <religious attitudes>
2 : of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances <joined a religious order>
3 a : scrupulously and conscientiously faithful b : fervent, zealous
Spiritual----
1 : of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit : incorporeal <spiritual needs>
2 a : of or relating to sacred matters <spiritual songs> b : ecclesiastical rather than lay or temporal <spiritual authority> <lords spiritual>
3 : concerned with religious values
4 : related or joined in spirit <our spiritual home> <his spiritual heir>
5 a : of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena b : of, relating to, or involving spiritualism
Secular----
1 a : of or relating to the worldly or temporal <secular concerns> b : not overtly or specifically religious <secular music> c : not ecclesiastical or clerical <secular courts> <secular landowners>
2 : not bound by monastic vows or rules; specifically : of, relating to, or forming clergy not belonging to a religious order or congregation <a secular priest>
3 a : occurring once in an age or a century b : existing or continuing through ages or centuries c : of or relating to a long term of indefinite duration <secular inflation>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As you can see, one might see a correlation between spirituality and religious, but not secular; secular would be totally opposite of both spirituality or religious.
NoelleR
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