digderidoo

Hi my secular friends.

I haven't posted much here the last 3 or 4 weeks and haven't attended any AA meetings either. I'm at a crossroads with my sobriety and wondering which way to turn i guess, so thought i'd post here about it.

I have two main issues, firstly i don't think AA is working for me and secondly i have thought about drinking, wondering whether i can drink moderately now.

On the first point, the issues i have with AA is step 3. Handing my will over....as a child i had my thoughts controlled by a minority religion, i broke free from that...i then spent years having my will controlled by alcohol, i feel as though now i have broken free from that. I do not want to hand my will over to something else, albeit a God of my own understanding. Surely if there is a God, he created us with free will?

I have developed a spirituality, but i don't see this as something taking over my will, i see it as something that will compliment my serenity and peace of mind more than anything else.

The problem i have in my locality is that there is no other options, no lifering or other secular groups, so AA is the only option for face to face.

I see cultlike characteristics in AA that sit uneasy with me. For instance, a them (outside) and us (alcoholics), i've heard that AA is the only way. I've heard that you're not sober if you don't use AA. There is definate thought control, there are so many repetative phrases, with many it's as though advice is read from a script...i've even seen those same phrases given as advice on the alcohol forums here.

I do not like the origins of AA, i do not like the fact that it came out of the Oxford Group and that the steps are an adaption of OG rules/steps. I do not like to see the veneration given to Bill Wilson, if you look into what sought of a man he was, why would i want to adopt his steps? It's widely reported that he asked for a glass of whiskey whilst dying and he's quoted as saying LSD can be used to gain spiritual insight.

I feel so uneasy with AA, but at the same time there is nothing else in my area.

On the second point of whether i can drink again in the future at safe levels. I basically see two models of alcohol/addiction recovery. The first (AA), being a disease model which we will always have, therefore abstinence is the only solution. The second being a learned behaviour model, that addiction is learned behaviour that can be unlearned, therefore meaning that we are not always going to be alcoholics, meaning safe drinking is possible. In the UK or should i say my locality the medical field adopts the second model and doesn't use the word alcoholism, but rather alcohol dependency. So i do ask myself am i an alcoholic, or was i alcohol dependent?

I do have issues with 'once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic'. I do wonder whether i can become a safe/moderate drinker and wonder to myself if i were to drink again would it be so bad? I was on the road to recovery prior to going to AA and always saw AA as the final piece of the jigsaw, but do i really need it now is what i ask myself? Have i essentially recovered? I have no desire to drink, but at the same time why should i rule it out anymore? (please note these are rhetorical questions)

I have been reading the first and last freedom which i do apply to AA. That essentially i want to be free from all conditioning, from my religious upbringing, from my alcohol addiction and also from recovery itself. I feel a though i've wiped the slate clean of my old life so to speak, if i drink again in the future would it be such a bad thing is what i ask myself.

Because i have been thinking like this i have kept away from this site and also AA meetings. I really do think we are responsile for our actions and not some higher power.

I therefore wanted to ask any advice/suggestions from the secular crowd here. I do not mean for this post to be AA bashing, it just how i feel at present. All the thoughts i have posted here is exactly what i have been thinking for the past few weeks and not meant to knock anyone elses recovery.

digderidoo

May be this would be better moving to the secular steps section? If a moderator feels as though this thread doesn't belong here, could you move it there, rather than locking it as i have mentioned AA, albeit negatively.

Paul

windysan

I guess the only way to see if you can drink moderately is give it a try. I drink on occasion and have never had a problem with booze. I had some of the same problems you have regarding AA. I found it cultish. If you have a booze problem and you plan on trying to drink moderately please be careful.

californiapoppy

If you're anywhere near a big city in the UK chances are you'll find another group to replace AA. They are here in France too, though they don't seem to be secular. In France we can also go to a doctor who specialises in alcoholism, I assume the same is true in the UK. Try to find out. As for going back to drinking moderately, I know I couldn't, one drink always leads to too many. I'm sure you know for yourself if you can moderate or not. I've tried so many times that I know moderation is out, it's a whole lot more difficult than abstinence and abstinence is not always easy either, and I know what I'm talking about. I do not like AA terminology, but I think I would be considered a "dry drunk", I've replaced drinking with abstinence and though I feel SOOOO much better not drinking, I apparently can't attain the level of spirituality or whatever it takes to recover and so from time to time I relapse, when that happens I feel AWFUL.
Think very carefully about trying moderation, I don't suggest it at all.
If you think AA is not for you, keep looking for something else. AA is not for me, I do without and just use Secular Connections to keep afloat, but as is, I'm a far cry from perfection.

Dee74

I have no advice on the AA thing Paul - other than what CalPop suggests - just because AA's not working, it doesn't mean there's not alternative face to face recovery support groups around.

I'm thinking the crux here is point#2 - you want to drink again.

I don't care about AA dogma or disease theory or what the latest trends in counselling are - I put myself and other people through hell with my drinking, I wasted 15 years of my life, I nearly died...

Compare that to the last two years of my life....even with all the hassles life still brings, they've been *immeasurably* better....

You may be right. Maybe AA is wrong and alcoholism is not a permanent condition - but I don't need to test that - I don't need to drink anymore regardless - it makes no sense to me....

I just can't see any good reason to even dabble with drinking again.

If you can't say the same thing - that life is better sober - maybe you better ask yourself why mate?

D

Zencat

I've gone through all sorts of thoughts about AA. Today I feel less inclined to put so much thought to AA...it is what it is...whatever it is. And I can work around the stuff of AA that doesn't aide me in my personalized addiction treatment plan. I think that's the key for me: having a treatment plan that holds all my focus that the distractions that gave me pause about AA...just don't matter that much now.

As for safe or moderate drinking...like 1 or 2 drinks in one day...I don't know. For me I would be concerned that because of my history with addiction and I have a long history with addiction, I would be tempting fate if I started to drink again. Plus I always in the past drank or drugged for the effects.

doorknob

I'm quite firm these days about AA not being for me. Whether I drink or not has nothing to do with that organization. As far as moderate/controlled drinking, I've been doing fairly well with it, although I know that not drinking at all would be the healthier option. Feel free to message me if you want to discuss it further.

Peace,

Paul

Pagekeeper

Hey digs!

The First and Last Freedom is one of my favorite books. Glad you like it too. One thing I took from Krishnamurti was the idea of conflict in "becoming." Basically, in a nutshell, he says whenever we want to "become" something, we are in conflict. The foundation for many of his teachings, to me anyway, is acceptance of what is.

I can only speak for myself, but as an alcoholic, when I want to become a social drinker, I am in conflict with myself. Instead I accept "what is"--that includes myself and how I am at the moment. For me, there's no "ruling out" alcohol. There's just the plain as day reality of alcoholism. Doesn't mean I'm forbidden to drink. It just means when I do, I have an adverse reaction. It's as much of a part of me as the fact that I have green eyes and I'm 5'7". It's neither positive nor negative. There's no need to "become" anything. Trying to become a social drinker, for me, is in the same league as trying to change my eye color from green to blue. It's absurd, but more importantly, it's not necessary in light of what is.

[ . . . ] So all stimulation, whether of the church or of alcohol or of drugs or of the written or spoken word, will inevitably bring about dependence, and that dependence prevents us from seeing clearly for ourselves and therefore from having vital energy. --From "Freedom from the Known" by Jiddu Krishnamurti

bugsworth

dig, I don't think your post is bashing aa rather it is a truthful assessment of your feelings...nothing wrong with it. I too left aa because of many of the things you cited.
As far as considering drinking I only needed my truth to know that it is not an option for me. It does boil down to acceptance to the truth in your life...drinking got you here why would you think time away from drinking would change that reality? I also have no desire to drink but that does not change what will happen to me if I do...kwim?
I hope you can find some peace with this issue and continue down the path of sobriety.

keithj

Well, digeridoo, since it got moved here...

Whether or not AA is working is something only you can decide based on your own experience. Have you taken all the steps? Are you still drinking? The 2nd part of wondering if you can drink moderately is an easy one. You can either go try it, or you can look at the cumulative experience of others. Alcoholics as defined by AA have very little luck at moderating. Hundreds and thousands have tried it, and very few have anything like a pleasant experience. Are you like them? Are you an alcoholic like described in the Big Book? That's all you really have to know to answer this question.

The only indoctrination, handing over of will that AA's steps require is that of taking the rest of the steps. Handing one's will over simply means taking the rest of the steps. You will discover what you will from that. You will discover whatever lies beyond self. 3rd step prayer says, "Relieve me of the bondage of self." Free will, yes, but alkies are usually out of control on the self-will part. Step 2 asks the question is there anything greater than MY SELF? Is there anything beyond the intellectual egoistic mind that drives my actions?

For a lot of AAers, it is the only way they've found. So of course they feel that way. Personally, I tried everything else available to me and I failed over and over. But looking around these forums, I see many people happy and sober that don't use AA. They are not doomed.

The 12 steps are simply a tried and true path that can lead to a psychic change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism. They did just that for me and many others. But to say it's the only path is ridiculous. That path only became attractive when my inability to live was outpacing my new ideas about how I might recover. Then I was willing to follow a pre-defined path.

I don't know how it works for others. I've found almost no conflict with my free will and AA. I stick to pretty hard core, work the steps by the book, kind of AA. In that frame, it's very much a take it or leave kind of program. There's little pressure placed to do anything. I've found that the manifestations (fear, anxiety, selfishness, resentment, dishonesty) of my self are pretty well managed if I take those 12 steps and live by them. I do have absolute free will to be controlled by those manifestations if I so desire. But I didn't like the results of that. I hated my life when I was ruled by fear and anger. I also drank heavily when I was ruled by self. It's a very pragmatic approach.

Best of luck to you, dige.

allport

I wish it was as simple as finding an alternative face to face group in the UK, which believes in total abstinence.

I have looked into it and for me there is one meeting in the early morning in a place 40 miles away and that is the only option (unless I can afford overnight stays, which I can't).

There is a group around here that meets twice a week which is for alcoholics (who don't do aa) but it deals in moderation which means that the majority of members are either drunk at the meeting or hungover (I am not commenting on moderation in general just what happens in this area).

I have no real problem with aa except it doesnt work for me, I'm not interested in discussing it though (take note secular aa people )

So the problem for me and I assume for Paul is that there is no face to face support for us.

I personally am doing ok with sobriety but sometimes I wish that there was some group that had the same kind of fellowship as aa without the aa bit.

digderidoo

Hi all, i have been reading the thread and will try to respond to most of the comments. If i miss anything out forgive me.

I guess that's what i'm asking myself now. If i once had a booze problem does that mean i've still got one.

I am near Birmingham, the UK's 2nd biggest city. The only other option is a place called Aquarius, they however adopt the learned behaiour model. They leave it up to you to decide abstinence or moderation. They only really set up to gather statistics for Birmingham University, it's more a research program into addiction for the Uni. The medical field forward people onto them, but they do not advocate abstinence anyhow. On another point there service is not very good, i have used them in the past albeit briefly, there is a wait of up to 12 weeks to get on the counselling or group therapy programs and their groups only meet in daytime which is not convenient for my work situation. Apart from Aquarius and AA there is no other options in Birmingham apart from standard counselling for depression, etc.

I am thinking carefully, which is why i'm posting.

I can say the same thing, my life is better tenfold. It's just that sometimes i feel as if i say no to alcohol for no real reason. I have posted here about a time when a friend brought a bottle of wine out there were 4 of us and i said no, but sat there thinking why not. There are also many times when i decide not to go away on weekends with friends because i know they will be drinking, stag weekends, etc. I guess i feel as though i'm missing out on a good weekend away because i choose abstinence and wonder whether if i did go away, have a good time with friends and yes drink with them, would that then mean that i will go back to square one, where i was 4 or 5 years ago.

I can see that point of view.

Thanks DK, i may pm you to ask you your experience of moderation.

Good way of looking at it.

Thanks Bugs, good point.

As i have said Keith i have a problem with step3, which is something i always have had. No i'm not still drinking, i have around 15 months sobriety.

Guess that's what i'm asking myself....i certainly was once like some of them described in the big book, but i am wondering whether that means i am now.

That's not what step 3 says....unless you're viewing the AA program as your higher power of course.

I'm happy that this way can work for others like yourself, as i have said i do not wish to knock other people's recovery. Unfortunately for me however i have been finding the program different. I do wonder though whether this is down to my sponsor as i have felt stook on step 3 because of him and if i continue with AA or take it back up then i will go with another sponsor who maybe has a different take on the steps.

Hi ally i'm glad things are ok with you and understand what you mean about the fellowship part, in my view the AA support network is second to none.



Thanks for the replies. I do wonder whether my issues with AA is down to my sponsor who is very big book and seems to have been waiting around for me to get an understanding of God similar to his.

On the drinking part, it's hard to explain. I don't have any desire to drink today and hopefully tomorrow, but at the same time i'm at a stage where i think why rule it out. I also don't like the idea of being 'stuck in recovery', i think having to talk about my recovery on a regular basis for years to come is not the way for me. I want to be 'recovered', rather than 'recovering' if that makes sense. Some in AA talk about dry drunks, but surely if you're talking about recovery, alcoholism and alcohol issues on a weekly basis (or more than that) for years to come then that isn't really recovery???

Paul

NoelleR

"...Originally Posted by keithj
The only indoctrination, handing over of will that AA's steps require is that of taking the rest of the steps. Handing one's will over simply means taking the rest of the steps..."

To which you replied
"...That's not what step 3 says....unless you're viewing the AA program as your higher power of course..."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just remember, the only thing Step-3 says is to MAKE A DECISION; the step itself does NOT tell us to actually turn our will and our lives over.....etc.; that's just the opinions and experiences of those folks in the BB in how they worked that particular step, NOT how I have to work it.

I'm not one of those folks who sees the BB, or even just the first 164 pages, as a text, or as an instruction manual. I use the steps as written on pages 59&60. I may read the other pages, but I take them just as I take the opinions and experiences of other folks in AA meetings.

I found, early on in recovery, it's much easier to just keep things really, REALLY simple, and I've found the steps very simple.....even working them as an Atheist.............. (o:


NoelleR

keithj

Exactly. The action of Steps 4-9 is the act of turning my will over. Step 3 is the decision. The Step 3 focus in the text is all about self. So, one way to look at it is am I willing to try something other than self? I make a decision in Step 3 to have that Self not run my life into the ground. Steps 4-9 are the process of removing it; the process of turning over my will.

You might want to ask him. I'm very Big Book and so was my first sponsor. It was probably a year or two before I even knew in what direction his spiritual leanings were. He just didn't care if mine matched his or not, and it really never came up. He knew that the only Higher Power that was going to aid in my sobriety was one that resonated deeply within me; one that was found within. His own personal concept had no bearing on my sobriety.

As far as taking the steps go, can you make a decision to do the rest of the steps? If so, you can start making a list of resentments. Simple.

digderidoo

I do not really want to turn this thread into another step 3 debate but i will comment on this point.

Ok, so making the decision is the point that you're making, but why is it that part of that step means saying the step 3 prayer? Or agreeing with somehting similar to it?

I willl not say this prayer with my sponsor, i do not see God as an existential being therefore i would be praying to nothing in my view. As you're an atheist how did you get past this one? I am not an atheist, i'm a don't know person, not necessarily agnostic, i've been told i'm a deist as i do tend to believe in intelligent design of some sort, either way it's that i don't know if God exists or not.

I will not do the prayer, and i'm not complicating anything in my view. I would be complicating the step if i said the prayer as i've got to have a concept of an existential God to do it. This has kept me at step 3 for a year. I did try a spiritual path as my higher power, but even with that i cannot say a prayer to it. This is my sticking point, this is what my sponsor wants me to do with him but i will not. This is why i think if i stick with AA i will have to change my sponsor as he seems to feel recovery is about doing this prayer. I have discussed my feelings with him at length, but it just goes around in circles.

My issue with turning over my will is simply that i have been created or exist with free will. I have to be responsible for this. I have lived my life doing other people's will, I have people pleased all my life, i have been brought up in a religion that controlled all of my actions, i have never acted on my will, it has always been about control. Whether that be control of my actions through religion, control of my actions through drink/drugs, attempting to people please with regards to my ex wife, my parents, or others, something or someone has always controlled my will, i am at a point now where i want that control back.

I have, i don't keep my thoughts to myself when it comes to this, we have had many conversations, as i have said i feel as though i have been stuck on step 3 for a year now.

Paul

keithj

Paul,

Thanks for the clarification. Maybe relating my 3rd step prayer experience will be of some use.

I, too, do not see God as any external being or force. At the time of my first 3rd step, I had zero God concept. But, I had what is talked about in We Agnostics. "Do I now believe, or was I even willing to believe..." Willing to believe was something I could handle. I was willing to believe in the possibility that I could recover. Willingness to go to any length for victory over alcoholism, even if it meant praying to something I didn't believe in.

So my sponsor asked me if the words in the BB 3rd step prayer were something I could live with. I said it was fine, it was better than anything I had going on at the time. And we got on our knees and said that prayer together.

And I felt nothing. No connection. No relief. Nothing. I felt like a fraud and seriously doubted whether I could continue with the steps. But, I was still willing. So I went home and started making a list for my 4th step.

Maybe you could come up with a prayer you can live with and take it to your sponsor? Something that expresses the idea of letting go of what you think is right for yourself, and putting your fate in the hands of the unknown? For me, willingness to lay my life on the line for the unknown was a big mental shift. From there, the rest of the steps almost took themselves. I was on autopilot.

I say, absolutely not. You do not have to have a concept of an existential God to do it. You have to have a concept as you understand it. That may mean that you have no understanding of it at all. I sure didn't. That's what I clung to, the big 'I don't know'. It sure doesn't have to have a name or a mental image. I find the mental image of an anthropmorphic God laughable for me personally. 'I don't know' is a good enough concept. I've worked this step this way with a number of guys.

The 'I will not do the prayer' part will block you. Can you get to a point of surrender with 'I do not believe this, but I will do it anyway'? I don't believe it, but I'm willing to go to that length because I can not do life as I'd been living it.

I thought about this before you posted. It's obvious that you have some valid frustration with other people or belief systems controlling you. This might be difficult for you. I see a clear distinction between free will and self will. My free will has not been imposed upon at all by taking the steps. If anything, life would be a little easier if I didn't have so much free will. It puts a lot of control in my hands.

Self will, however, can be seen as my selfish motives. I know you posted some stuff about trying to please others, and being controlled by others. You may not be able to see any selfish motives at this time. That's what Step 4 is all about.

Just look at all the Al-Anon folks for a second. They are getting jerked around by the alcoholic, always feeling like they are sacrificing and getting stepped on. They are controlled by it. They are dominated by it. If anyone could claim lack of selfishness, it's them. But, their solution is the same as ours. In discovering their own selfish motives, their attempts to control the uncontrollable, they become free.

Freedom, Paul, is what is offered. Freedom from self-will, not free will. The steps boil down to the radical idea of living a life of service. It sounds like no fun. I have to truly give up what I think I want. I have to give my life up to the benefit of others. Sounds harsh! But it was required for me to overcome alcoholism.

And the real kicker is, as long as I live my life in service to others, disregarding what I think I want, I'm given better than I imagined possible. It's a paradox for sure, but that's been my experience with it.

digderidoo

Thanks for relating your experience Keith

It's amazing how we have preconceptions of posters views, for some reason i always thought you had a belief in God and worked the program with that in mind.

I feel as though i can't do that. I have often heard the phrase in AA 'you have to fake it, to make it'. I do not agree with that statement and i suspect that you don't either. If i were to pray to something that i do not believe in, i feel as though this is what i would be doing.

Guess that's what's stopping me from doing it.

I think when his understanding of God and my understanding are so different then i couldn't see how it would work. Doing a step 3 prayer for me would feel like faking it.

That's a good point to take on board.

It will certainly block me to do step 3, but block me in recovery i'm not so sure. Do i need to go to that length to recover is what i have asked myself this past year.

You've hit the nail on the head. I have spoken to a handful of others in AA who have been in the same religion (jehovah's witness) but now left it. Some over the net and there is one guy in my home group. I have got some identification from them, it's always of interest to me how an ex jw works the program. Between us i guess we feel unique in AA, but then doesn't every alcoholic? lol

If i remember anything from this thread it will be this.

Maybe that's what i want to do, never thought of it that way before.

I can see the difference and the point you've made.

Thanks for your thoughtful post

Paul

Dee74

My answer - for me - would be I have 20 years of experience that suggests there'd be no difference, even now.

I thought about this last night - I never was a normal drinker - honestly, I still cannot grasp the idea of 'sharing a drink or two' with friends...it would be many more than 'just a couple', or I would be miserable wishing it was.

I figure I'm not missing out on anything by not drinking - my friendships don't depend on it anymore - I doubt yours do either.

I don't need it anymore. I have no reason to turn around - even if I'm wrong and I could somehow retrain myself to be a 'normie' now.

Anyway - obviously I don't know how it would be for you, Paul, but I wish you well mate

D

Ananda

I relate to you alot digger...just out of treatment...what i can tell you is that today i believe that i can stay sober no matter what...including, as you well know, my unbelief in god....

I still intend to continue to work the 12 steps in a secular/godless way. I am adding some additional outside help, and will continue this journey. I refuse to believe that my lack of belief in god dooms me to death.

As for the stuff about casual drinking with friends...pffft...we all know thats bull...just forget that (work through that irrational belief) and move on into sober living

digger..i could be wrong but i think the step 3 section of the big book, which i don't take as the only way to do the steps, states that we have to say something that is meaningful to us...just as the god of our understanding has to be one that MAKES SENSE to us. sht...when i got sober in 85 being on step 3 at one year was not all that unusual..this isn't a race...it is about honestly finding out our values and beliefs through working the 12 steps in some form.

please keep as real as you are right now and don't give up your integrity.

my heart is with you hon!

NoelleR

"...Ok, so making the decision is the point that you're making, but why is it that part of that step means saying the step 3 prayer? Or agreeing with somehting similar to it?..."

There is NO part of Step-3 that means we need to say the 3rd Step prayer, or any other prayer, for that matter. Just because others have felt the need to say a prayer in order to do the step does not mean that it's necessary.

"...I will not do the prayer, and i'm not complicating anything in my view. I would be complicating the step if i said the prayer as i've got to have a concept of an existential God to do it. This has kept me at step 3 for a year..."

.....and that's a shame. Ya know; I did NOT say the 3rd Step prayer, nor did my sponsor, nor my two best friends in recovery.....and we've all got better than 20+ years (two 23's, one 25, one 26, and one 35); so, I guess it really isn't necessary...... (o:

"...This is my sticking point, this is what my sponsor wants me to do with him but i will not. This is why i think if i stick with AA i will have to change my sponsor as he seems to feel recovery is about doing this prayer. I have discussed my feelings with him at length, but it just goes around in circles..."

....and you're absolutely right; you may need to find another sponsor. I've worked with lots of recovery folks.....: Atheists, Agnostics, Theists.....whatevers. I've found it best to let them work the steps as they work for them and not try to push how I worked them onto anybody; that RARELY works.


"...I willl not say this prayer with my sponsor, i do not see God as an existential being therefore i would be praying to nothing in my view. As you're an atheist how did you get past this one?..."

As I said earlier......: although many folks feel the need to say the 3rd Step prayer, or some other prayer; it's definitely NOT a part of the step, only a part of some folks' experience, and it doesn't have to be a part of yours. You ask how I got past it, but since I didn't see anything to get past, I'm not sure what to tell you. I worked the step as it's written; I made the decision.....and then went right into the 4th Step..... (o:


NoelleR