Where i'm at.....looking for secular advice
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 600
Originally Posted by nand
As for the stuff about casual drinking with friends...pffft...we all know thats bull...just forget that (work through that irrational belief) and move on into sober living
Originally Posted by noeller
There is NO part of Step-3 that means we need to say the 3rd Step prayer, or any other prayer, for that matter. Just because others have felt the need to say a prayer in order to do the step does not mean that it's necessary.
Originally Posted by noeller
As I said earlier......: although many folks feel the need to say the 3rd Step prayer, or some other prayer; it's definitely NOT a part of the step, only a part of some folks' experience, and it doesn't have to be a part of yours. You ask how I got past it, but since I didn't see anything to get past, I'm not sure what to tell you. I worked the step as it's written; I made the decision.....and then went right into the 4th Step.....
Paul
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Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 600
As an update, i've spoken to a few people with good recovery and taken some pointers that will work well.
I have spoken to my sponsor yesterday,w e are arranging to meet up and i will talk to him about the prayer, about the handing my will over and the issues it raises for me. I can see how these issues will be dealt with in step 4, i can also see that rather than free will be handed over it's more a case of handing over my alcoholic will to a higher power, whatever that higher power may be.
I ahve been to a meeting tonight for the first time in a few weeks. I wasn't going to share, just listen but there was a guy there who's been in a AA about 3 months, he did the main share and everything he said relates to how i have been thinking, the feeling that i'm ok now, the problems with higher power, etc, etc. So i shared next basically to say how much identification i can get, then bagan to say how i define my higher power...the AA group being the most basic that i started with.
I guess i'm back on track to an extent, but really need to talk to my sponsor, which isn't until next week. It may well be a case that i change my sponsor as the way i look at the program and the way he looks at it are so different. If he is insistent that God should be viewed as a person and that i have to do the step 3 prayer with him, then i will look for a sponsor with an atheist/agnostic perspective.
Thanks for the replies, i'm not 100% on track with AA as to yet, but i can now see the benefit of moving on with the steps and put my trust into the program, but work my program of recovery, rather than somebody elses.
Paul
I have spoken to my sponsor yesterday,w e are arranging to meet up and i will talk to him about the prayer, about the handing my will over and the issues it raises for me. I can see how these issues will be dealt with in step 4, i can also see that rather than free will be handed over it's more a case of handing over my alcoholic will to a higher power, whatever that higher power may be.
I ahve been to a meeting tonight for the first time in a few weeks. I wasn't going to share, just listen but there was a guy there who's been in a AA about 3 months, he did the main share and everything he said relates to how i have been thinking, the feeling that i'm ok now, the problems with higher power, etc, etc. So i shared next basically to say how much identification i can get, then bagan to say how i define my higher power...the AA group being the most basic that i started with.
I guess i'm back on track to an extent, but really need to talk to my sponsor, which isn't until next week. It may well be a case that i change my sponsor as the way i look at the program and the way he looks at it are so different. If he is insistent that God should be viewed as a person and that i have to do the step 3 prayer with him, then i will look for a sponsor with an atheist/agnostic perspective.
Thanks for the replies, i'm not 100% on track with AA as to yet, but i can now see the benefit of moving on with the steps and put my trust into the program, but work my program of recovery, rather than somebody elses.
Paul
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Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 600
As regards the subject of saying the prayer, i have just reread pg 63 of the big book. I have bolded the words i'd like to discuss.
First of all the big book says 'many of us'....not all of us.
Secondly the next paragraph states 'it is better to meet God alone' to do this step, rather than with someone else.
I have no issue of doing this to a God of my own understanding on my own. I do it anyway. When i have worked the program, the God of my own understanding is a spiritual path and an experience, rather than an entity. When i say something like these words to this spiritual path, it is by way of meditating, by way of thinking about these words and by way concentrating on those words. If i hand over to a spiritual path it is a commitment to trust on that path for the day and to rely on the AA group (Group Of Drunks).
As the big book says, 'it is better to meet God alone'. I am surprised that the answer to this is in the big book, i did think to myself that this is one thing i do not agree with. It looks as if those sponsors who insist that this prayer of step 3 should be done with them, is actually going further than what is written in the big book.
I guess i now feel at peace with this step, just need to talk to my sponsor about it.
Paul
We were now at Step Three. Many of us said to our Maker, as we understood Him: "God, I offer myself to Thee -- to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always!" We thought well before taking this step making sure we were ready; that we could at last abandon ourselves utterly to Him. Third Step Prayer
We found it very desirable to take this spiritual step with an understanding person, such as our wife, best friend, or spiritual adviser. But it is better to meet God alone than with one who might misunderstand. The wording was, of course, quite optional so long as we expressed the idea, voicing it without reservation. This was only a beginning, though if honestly and humbly made, an effect, sometimes a very great one, was felt at once.
We found it very desirable to take this spiritual step with an understanding person, such as our wife, best friend, or spiritual adviser. But it is better to meet God alone than with one who might misunderstand. The wording was, of course, quite optional so long as we expressed the idea, voicing it without reservation. This was only a beginning, though if honestly and humbly made, an effect, sometimes a very great one, was felt at once.
Secondly the next paragraph states 'it is better to meet God alone' to do this step, rather than with someone else.
I have no issue of doing this to a God of my own understanding on my own. I do it anyway. When i have worked the program, the God of my own understanding is a spiritual path and an experience, rather than an entity. When i say something like these words to this spiritual path, it is by way of meditating, by way of thinking about these words and by way concentrating on those words. If i hand over to a spiritual path it is a commitment to trust on that path for the day and to rely on the AA group (Group Of Drunks).
As the big book says, 'it is better to meet God alone'. I am surprised that the answer to this is in the big book, i did think to myself that this is one thing i do not agree with. It looks as if those sponsors who insist that this prayer of step 3 should be done with them, is actually going further than what is written in the big book.
I guess i now feel at peace with this step, just need to talk to my sponsor about it.
Paul
problem with authority
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 870
This is where Buddhism has helped me greatly. By the time I am at Step Three, I have seen my will as something that, frankly, hasn't worked too well for me in the past. It is a Grasping at things out of fear and other character defects that feed on untruths. Turning my will over on a practical level for me, today, is more along the lines of, "hmm, here's a very strong thought pattern I have growing out of a very strong instinct, what's going on here, what if I'm wrong about this?" It is getting to the bottom of assumptions and attachments that happen often on a sub-liminal level.
Up from the ashes
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Northern California
Posts: 213
I first saw this post last night…I thought about it a lot. I’m sorry I didn’t see it sooner. I want to address the original post in reverse order simply because I think that my response and opinions will flow a little better.
This is not my first stint as a sober person. I have tried multiple times in the last 10 years to stop drinking. Some of these times would last a month or three months or six months. A couple of times I lasted for a year or more. I really believe that one major problem which contributed to my drinking was the false belief that I could return to drinking in moderation.
I like wine. In my humble opinion, California makes some of the best wine in the world, and there are cities all over Northern California which have huge economies fueled by local wine production. Southern California also has some fantastic wines. There are specific foods that are nicely paired with specific wines, and it is very hard to come to terms with the separation of an unfortunate addiction and eating the way that I have grown to like. There are also many microbreweries which produce very good beer. I have also visited distilleries, and the art of producing distilled spirits is actually quite involved, interesting, and can produce some very tasty and impressive results.
So I have slipped. I would tell myself that I have developed discipline. That since I have gone (fill in the length of time here) days/weeks/months without drinking, that certainly I could drink. That if all I ever did was drink once or twice every three months for the remainder of my life, certainly it would be okay. I told myself that I would just ride out the rest of my life with discipline when it comes to alcohol. And I did it. For a while…
Then I would find myself, awake at 3:00 AM. Again. The room is spinning. Things are hazy. Last night at 3:00 AM I told myself that I would not drink today. How many drinks did I have? Did I really decide to walk to the liquor store after 8...10...12 drinks, because I was too drunk to drive, but I needed more alcohol? Really? WTF? And I would lie there for at least an hour telling myself that I would not drink today.
If you choose moderation, I hope you have better results than I did. Frankly, I don’t know anyone who comes to a recovery program, because they are convinced that there use of alcohol is so hard to control, then sobers up, then goes on to lead a life of moderate drinking. It’s like eating a bag of apples, only somewhere in the bag is a hand grenade with the pin pulled out. Eventually you discover that eating apples from that bag is not a good idea.
Time for my ubiquitous disclaimer: I do not have a problem with any program to quit drinking or any religion. I have chosen my opinions about religion and recovery, and others choose their opinions about religion and recovery, I wouldn’t have it any other way. Please do not interpret any of the following to be a personal attack on any religious or recovery movement.
Bill Wilson developed the twelve steps from the tenets and practice of an evangelical christian movement, and this fact is obvious to anyone who has made an informed decision to become an atheist. I came to an atheist belief after studying many religions and ultimately, philosophically agreeing more with people like Ayn Rand and Jean Paul Sarte. I’m not sure if you are familiar with these writers, but if you are, then I will bet that you already know that I have a problem with crediting my will to anyone but me. Further, I have a problem with the remaining language of step 3 “god as we understood him.”
One of my beliefs is that my will is the strongest force that I can control in my life. Another one of my beliefs is that there is no god. These beliefs make prayer a pretty pointless act.
If you look the word “spiritual” up in the dictionary, I doubt if you will be very satisfied with the definition, regardless of your opinion about religion. So to say something to the effect of “alcoholism is overcome by living a spiritual existence” is just too vague.
The forward to the first edition of the AA big book states: “…The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking. We are not allied with any particular faith, sect or denomination, nor do we oppose anyone…” This is a very inspiring statement, and is, what I believe to be Alcoholics Anonyomous’ saving grace. You’ve probably also heard the phrase “take the best, leave the rest.”
When you examine the life of Bill Wilson, you see a man who smoked for the remainder of his life. He also used LSD in experiments with Aldous Huxley, believe it or not. He was reportedly something of a womanizer, but this may be just gossip, these are things that we really will never know the truth about, I wonder if we even should. Still, I find it strange that 12 step programs have been applied so universally to quit everything from smoking to drugs to sex addiction.
If you try to research the matter of whether AA improves the lifelong sobriety of it’s members, the statistics are all over the road, and lead one to believe that it is either too difficult to determine definitively, or that the sources have a hard time being objective.
I do AA. The group I use is agnostic. I believe that the real value comes from discussing the problem of drinking with other people who can relate to what you are going through, and maintaining a constant vigilance to prevent future drinking. I take the best and leave the rest.
This is not my first stint as a sober person. I have tried multiple times in the last 10 years to stop drinking. Some of these times would last a month or three months or six months. A couple of times I lasted for a year or more. I really believe that one major problem which contributed to my drinking was the false belief that I could return to drinking in moderation.
I like wine. In my humble opinion, California makes some of the best wine in the world, and there are cities all over Northern California which have huge economies fueled by local wine production. Southern California also has some fantastic wines. There are specific foods that are nicely paired with specific wines, and it is very hard to come to terms with the separation of an unfortunate addiction and eating the way that I have grown to like. There are also many microbreweries which produce very good beer. I have also visited distilleries, and the art of producing distilled spirits is actually quite involved, interesting, and can produce some very tasty and impressive results.
So I have slipped. I would tell myself that I have developed discipline. That since I have gone (fill in the length of time here) days/weeks/months without drinking, that certainly I could drink. That if all I ever did was drink once or twice every three months for the remainder of my life, certainly it would be okay. I told myself that I would just ride out the rest of my life with discipline when it comes to alcohol. And I did it. For a while…
Then I would find myself, awake at 3:00 AM. Again. The room is spinning. Things are hazy. Last night at 3:00 AM I told myself that I would not drink today. How many drinks did I have? Did I really decide to walk to the liquor store after 8...10...12 drinks, because I was too drunk to drive, but I needed more alcohol? Really? WTF? And I would lie there for at least an hour telling myself that I would not drink today.
If you choose moderation, I hope you have better results than I did. Frankly, I don’t know anyone who comes to a recovery program, because they are convinced that there use of alcohol is so hard to control, then sobers up, then goes on to lead a life of moderate drinking. It’s like eating a bag of apples, only somewhere in the bag is a hand grenade with the pin pulled out. Eventually you discover that eating apples from that bag is not a good idea.
Time for my ubiquitous disclaimer: I do not have a problem with any program to quit drinking or any religion. I have chosen my opinions about religion and recovery, and others choose their opinions about religion and recovery, I wouldn’t have it any other way. Please do not interpret any of the following to be a personal attack on any religious or recovery movement.
Bill Wilson developed the twelve steps from the tenets and practice of an evangelical christian movement, and this fact is obvious to anyone who has made an informed decision to become an atheist. I came to an atheist belief after studying many religions and ultimately, philosophically agreeing more with people like Ayn Rand and Jean Paul Sarte. I’m not sure if you are familiar with these writers, but if you are, then I will bet that you already know that I have a problem with crediting my will to anyone but me. Further, I have a problem with the remaining language of step 3 “god as we understood him.”
One of my beliefs is that my will is the strongest force that I can control in my life. Another one of my beliefs is that there is no god. These beliefs make prayer a pretty pointless act.
If you look the word “spiritual” up in the dictionary, I doubt if you will be very satisfied with the definition, regardless of your opinion about religion. So to say something to the effect of “alcoholism is overcome by living a spiritual existence” is just too vague.
The forward to the first edition of the AA big book states: “…The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking. We are not allied with any particular faith, sect or denomination, nor do we oppose anyone…” This is a very inspiring statement, and is, what I believe to be Alcoholics Anonyomous’ saving grace. You’ve probably also heard the phrase “take the best, leave the rest.”
When you examine the life of Bill Wilson, you see a man who smoked for the remainder of his life. He also used LSD in experiments with Aldous Huxley, believe it or not. He was reportedly something of a womanizer, but this may be just gossip, these are things that we really will never know the truth about, I wonder if we even should. Still, I find it strange that 12 step programs have been applied so universally to quit everything from smoking to drugs to sex addiction.
If you try to research the matter of whether AA improves the lifelong sobriety of it’s members, the statistics are all over the road, and lead one to believe that it is either too difficult to determine definitively, or that the sources have a hard time being objective.
I do AA. The group I use is agnostic. I believe that the real value comes from discussing the problem of drinking with other people who can relate to what you are going through, and maintaining a constant vigilance to prevent future drinking. I take the best and leave the rest.
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