bugsworth

Clay, as someone who struggled with aa ideology as you are, albeit for different reasons, I can identify with you. I found the following steps to be a help in my early sobriety...no belief in God is necessary and they have been posted here before by numerous people.

I hope they might help you.

The Humanist 12-Steps

1. We accept the fact that all our efforts to stop drinking have failed.

2. We believe that we must turn elsewhere for help.

3. We turn to our fellow men and women, particularly those who have struggled with the same problem.

4. We have made a list of the situations in which we are most likely to drink.

5. We ask our friends to help us avoid those situations.

6. We are ready to accept the help they give us.

7. We honestly hope they will help.

8. We have made a list of the persons we have harmed and to whom we hope to make amends.

9. We shall do all we can to make amends, in any way that will not cause further harm.

10. We will continue to make such lists and revise them as needed.

11. We appreciate what our friends have done and are doing to help us.

12. We, in turn, are ready to help others who may come to us in the same way

and yes people recover SR is a great place to witness it!

ClayTheScribe

That's good I like it, even though it's a pretty radical change from the original 12 steps. I can see a roadblock for me with this list in the case of me moving to another state, which is very possible for me now. I won't have my friends around (unless you're talking about your friends in AA and on SR?) and I'm not quick to make friends. I'm somewhat uncomfortable relying on friends, a la Step 5, to keep me sober because that puts too much unnecessary pressure on others for my sobriety. That and I don't consider them a power greater than myself. I'd feel more comfortable calling upon Nature or Being than other people or myself.

Fortunately I'm much more optimistic about recovering from my addictions than recovering from my depression. Though I fear if I don't recover from depression, I'll be drawn back into my addictive cycle.

Thanks though!

ClayTheScribe

While I have achieved moments of peace with drugs and alcohol, they never lasted. And when I came down I was usually brought into a hell worse than before I took the drug. But I'd keep doing it again and again, that's how I knew I was powerless. I'll never be normal, I don't ever want to be. I like being strange/odd/weird, that's one of the few things I like about me. I just want to feel at peace with myself and the universe. I know I have to do that without alcohol or drugs. I know I can stay off alcohol or drugs if I use the resources (therapist, Life Ring AA) at my feet, I just can't imagine ever feeling at peace again. I don't even remember the last time I truly felt at peace when I wasn't high. Probably when I was a kid, before age 11. I guess it's possible I'm just not optimistic.

ClayTheScribe

:wtf2

I don't understand this metaphor. Do I have to pretend to have one hand in real life? If I wasn't ready to take something big and life-altering, it wouldn't matter if I had one hand or two. I guess the first thing I'd have to do is determine if I can carry this huge thing in one hand??

bugsworth

Clay...you have to let go of all that you are holding on to in order to reach out for the new.

I believe that once we start changing how we look at thing the things that we look at change.

Pagekeeper

This is not a description of atheism; it is a description of nihilism. I suppose some atheists are nihilistic, but not all of them are. I don't believe I ever was.

You don't have to find anything. You must, however, seek to enlarge your spritual life. This can mean different things to different people. Some will say all you have to do is practice the program's principles. I do not disagree, but I am helped by other tools as well, like books, spending time in nature, contemplation and reflection, meditation, etc. I had to become an active participant in seeking a spiritual way of life instead of just waiting for it to happen. I had to put effort into the search.

"The Little Book of Atheist Spirituality," by Andre Comte-Sponville is also worth a look.

spittake

*****!! This is my most favoritest passage in the BB. When I read this, in much the same state Clay is, I couldn't find a thing wrong with this statement. It's proffered as though the reader would say, "Oh, well, I guess that does sound ridiculous. Okay, there must be a God." My reaction was that it was an acceptable enough explanation of a basic concept by some less-than-intellectual theists. And then I said to my sponsor, "Oh crap, this is gonna be harder than I thought!"

But I am one of those nihilistic atheists.

You know, (this just struck me) a lot of people I've talked to have made energy their HP. I believe they mean the good/bad energy concept, but why couldn't it be actual energy, in the physics sense? Brain function is a series of electrical impulses, isn't it? And the progression of addiction weakens the role our frontal lobes play in decision-making, which translates to loss of impulse control. I read somewhere on this or the other secular board that someone's HP was their frontal lobe. I dunno, just struck me as something to think about. All the best, Clay.

ClayTheScribe

I am not a nihilistic atheist, that's why that passage in We Atheists bothered me. I believe we all have souls and spirits and originate from a life force, or The Source, I just don't believe it is a conscious, creative intelligence controlling things, nor did it create this universe. It was never created, it just is. I think it's very human to think a omniscient being created all this like we would build a house. It didn't come out of nothing. I think universes expand and contract, expand and contract and that our universe is one of probably billions, if not infinite, other universes. That's why I want to use Nature as my higher power because it is the force organically and unconsciously acting upon existence that is most definitely a power greater than myself. I had a long conversation with a man after the AA meeting tonight and he said Nature would be perfect for a HP, so I'm going to run with that. I'm excited because it will force me to know and come into contact more with Nature. I see a camping trip on the horizon...

stone

I believe in God, only I spell it Nature.
~Frank Lloyd Wright

keithj

Clay,

You've got plenty enough of a concept to make a start. Here is a caution:

All of this stuff is what you're holding in that one hand. I encourage you to take your concept, as you understand it, and be open to endless possibility.

I'd also encourage you to not half do this thing if you're going to do it. Get a sponsor and start from step one. Try not to be defensive or even have opinions. Just start with an open mind and be honest with yourself.

Latch on, my friend, and let others help you.

Pagekeeper

Clay, fantastic! I really think it is important that one truly believes in whatever it is they choose to use. "Fake it" and "Pray to your sponsor's HP" never worked for me, just made me feel like a phony, and that was the same behavior I had when I was drinking. I did a lot of contemplating and writing about this sort of thing (and still do). Writing is how I process the world, how I make sense of things that do not make sense to me, and it is a spiritual endeavour. I encourage you to keep at it, as this is what it's all about--the search. I don't know how else to explain it, but for me spiritual growth happens in the search, in the journey, and not in any absolute answer or destination.

May your search be as pathless and freeing as mine has been.

stone

After my last drink....it seemed to finally sink in that i could not beat this myself and my higher power concept was mostly AA and the people in it, these were a group of people who had all realised they couldn't beat it themselves too...and yet here they are sober.
So they were my ray of hope for step 2. By the time I was moving on to step 3 my HP was a mixture of AA, mindfulness, Eckhart Tolles concepts of God (Being or whatever, not that Tolle is saying anything new, I just find he sums stuff up nicely) and that little voice inside me that knows right from wrong, knows the next right thing to do.

So I was turning my life over to following the steps (even when I don't feel like it) continuing to practice mindfulness (when I remember) and to trying to do the next right thing....

It is strange, Eckhart Tolle is the one person who can use the word God and I think yes, I see what you mean, lol.


So my point is that my concept has changed and will continue to change, I am sure. Just try to find something that makes sense to you (mine makes sens to me, even if it is a jumble of stuff).....I think that is the crucial part.

Ananda

yep...it doesn't orriginate out of nothing...not for me..the universe originates out of everything...and that is huge complecated and beyond my everyday understanding....for me...not having read back through this whole serious of posts..right or wrong though that may be....it's all about the fact that when i read we agnostics...was i faced the fact that "god" is everying or nothing...within my definition of god....the answer is god is nothing....but...that is only the begining of the spiritual path I am on My path goes beyone that question, on to the 12 steps...I realize it makes no logical sense and i basically don't care.....god is nothing...so...where does my "higher power" my belief in some sort of consistant logical thing lead me...that is the quest...it is the only one that leads to sobriety for me.... I love many things about the big book...and one part is "god is everything or god is nothing" a "higher power" that makes sense to me! so i egin the journey of the 12 steps....what I think this section is about....it's not easy, its very hard for me...but this is the journey i am on cause it is a journey that is honest...and that i can commit to. Sorry if i'm off target for this thread...but i desperatly have to find my place in the world if I want to stay sober....and this is where i may differ from many "secular" people....the word i would use is spiritual...not of a god bend...but spiritual or if you prefer...philisophical...I just know it is about more than just self...and i am looking for the way..

sorry..sorting stuff out and this is a help!

Boleo

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ative-god.html

Tosh

I came into AA beaten and desperate to stop drinking, though an ardent aethiest, though maybe agnostic at times and initially thought I'd have problems with this 'God' stuff.

I've also heard a talking book of Tolle's; it's a boring listen; but I've got a similar conception of a HP that you've just described and it's worked for me, in that I've had the physchic change; I no longer have the desire to drink; although I don't feel like I've had any spiritual experiences; though mine could be of the 'educational variety'.

But I've also heard that the physchic change and spritual experience are both the same thing.

Anyway, I'd say use the HP you described! It's really not that difficult to find a HP, not if you're desperate enough, and I've also heard something along the lines that no-one is too stupid to get the message of AA, but there's plenty of folk who're too clever to get it.

Luckily enough I'm not very bright, but I'm willing, honest (mostly), and have an open mind.

Overman

Tolle's ideas sound strikingly similar to Spinoza's...re:The Source.

BP44

We Agnostics begs us to set aside prejudice. I absolutely begs us. I think six or seven times. There are only a couple of other places in the book where they beg us to do something. That should convey that doing that is extremely important, and more to the point, there isn't one of us who comes to AA with a lot of prejudice particularly when it comes to spiritual matters. The fact of the matter is if you have completly and thoroughly done the first step, you will be interested in power. Quite frankly, I didn't care what you called it. You could have called it shuba huba duba, I was interested in the power behind the name. It was suggested to me that I set aside everything I think I know about anything, in particular spiritual matters. If any of it had worked, I wouldn't be here. I called a guy one night during the time I was immersed in We Agnostics approaching the second step. I had all this concern about God concept, what's adequate?, what if... blah, blah, blah. He said, " First, lets start with the presumption you are insane, and while I know you want to have a lengthy discussion about all this stuff, I'm not gonna crawl into your insanity tonight." He said," I've noticed you're a Big Thinker " I said," Yeah, I guess so" He said, " Well, your best thinking hasn't gotten you very far, my suggestion is for you to see if you can find an episode of The Simpson's on TV, it'll make more sense than anything you're thinking."...click. It just didn't matter what I thought. So, my suggestion is to set aside what you think you know. The experience will astonish you. It has been so astonishing for me that i can walk up to you and look you dead in the eye and say," Yes you can Clay, you can pray to nothing..... even nothing can do a better job at running your life than you have been. We have to start somewhere Clay. To me it sounds like you've made that start with Source/ Being. By the way, that is an awakening you didn't have when you got here a while back.

Timebuster

I read on this thread a spiritual awakening" can sound a bit too much like an end point.

Actually I think it’s the opposite.

Am not that smart. In my recovery I like to keep it simple.

A light bulb moment = A spiritual awakening.

Another light bulb moment, another spiritual awakening.

And so on and so on.

Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, ties it all in for me.

Just my humble opinion.

Ivan

ClayTheScribe

Thanks, but I'm just not ready to handle AA. It seems all to daunting right now to approach the steps and the only decent suggestions I've had are on here, not so much in real life. I went to LifeRing and that helped me out just to share my experience and hear about others' similar struggles. Tonight we talked about self-respect and guilt and that was enlightening. I also like that we have cross-talk. I'm gonna go to more meetings now that I have the time. I feel pretty stable in my sobriety now. Fortunately I don't have the money to afford drinking anyway. If the cravings get out of control or I drink again, then I'll probably be desperate enough for AA.