paulmh

This is from Terence Gorski's blog at a well known treatment centre (I won't advertise) -

There's a lot of interesting stuff in this debate. I'm one of these purists. I think that the programme of recovery in the first 164 pages of the BB should never be changed, for two reasons. One is a bunch of drunks will make a huge fight out of changing it, and that'll never be resolved. We either take it as it is, or not at all. If that means that something comes along which outgrows it - so be it. Nothing has so far. Two, I think the BB is the glue that binds us to each other. It is the "common solution on which we are all agreed". People can engage with AA in all sorts of ways, but warts, flaws, imperfections and all, we have a basic text and it gives us our common ground. It serves to reduce our egos because it asks things of us which we maybe don't agree with, or maybe we don't want to do. But if we want to be "in", we learn how to work against out huge egos and do as the book instructs, with humility.

But. The BB - my belief only - isn't perfect. There are lots of things we can learn about recovery outside the book. I think that AA teaches us a form of behavioural therapy, and there is much to be learned about behavioural therapy from other sources.

So - 12 step plus? Or is it just 12 step lite?

Pagekeeper

I'm in agreement with you. The 12 steps are a method, or an approach to having a spiritual experience that will solve one's drinking problem. I feel, too, that the BB was intended to be a humble program, as humility is essential if one is to have a spiritual experience. It would not be a humble program if it stated the 12 steps were the only way to recover or the best way to recover, they are simply a method that has worked for us. The BB even suggests that we be quick to see where religious people are right. To me, "religion" is not confined to Christianity--I try to see where Hindus are right, where Buddhists are right, where Pagans and Muslims are right, and this can even be extended into other practices such as philosophical, medical, and psychological fields. Learning new ideas and approaches has yet to be detrimental to my 12 step program--quite the contrary--it enriches my perspective and helps me help others.

paulmh

That's how I see it too. We tried it, most often in hopelessness and despair, and we found something that allowed us, on a day to day basis, the chance to rebuild our lives when all hope of that seemed lost. It doesn't have to be "perfection" to do that - it's enough that it's enough!

FightingIrish

It always pissed me off when BB people would poo poo any discussion of scientific or behavioral aspects of addiction/sobriety.

It usually goes something like this:

"I was reading the other day about XYZ."
"XYZ WON'T KEEP YOU SOBER!!!"
"Huh?!"

Ananda

I guess i just don't believe that to be true. I consider the preamble (which isn't in the bb) to be the glue that binds us and the common solution.

I practice the steps and attend AA to do as the preamble states.

the big book is just the story of how the first 100 did it, and i get to hear from others how they are doing it today in meetings.

Pagekeeper

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Paul was just saying that the BB is our common ground--it is where we get our info, program, explanations, directions, and where we identify with the description of the alcoholic. The meetings are a setting in which to discuss the themes we find in the BB. Doesn't mean our interpretations of the text are identical. No two people will interpret the same text the same way. We all bring different layers of life experience to the text which influences how we interact with that text on many different levels, but for the most part we can agree on it thematically. We can agree in principle.

Apologies in advance if I got what Paul was saying wrong.

CarolD

Well.....
For years here on SR I have been sharing the same link
on the subject of Post Acute Withdrawal. It's even in
the 1st sticky post in Alcoholism.

The source? Staying Sober" By: Terence T. Gorski

I've always considered him to be factual and interesting.

FightingIrish

Mine was a general rant, not directed against anyone in particular. Sorry if it came off that way.

digderidoo

In my 18 months in AA i have tried all ways to fight against the 12 steps in the BB. I have looked into other forms of recovery and i have used the AA only to meet other recovering alcoholics.

I think you are correct Paul in that the BB is what binds us together and echo what pagekeeper says in that it is our common ground. I think if we view the steps and BB as a base, or foundation, then all other recoveries and all other experiences can be used to compliment and build upon it. Eventually we build our own house, in our own style, with our own decor, but with a very firm foundation of the 12 steps and the BB.

It has taken me time to realise that this is what's best for me, now that i am working the steps and finally accepted step 3 in my recovery, i can now see it's importance.

Paul

Ananda

I think it is great that everyone finds a way that works for them. The 12 steps are very important to me for my recovery and I still consider myself a memeber of AA working the AA program...

I certainly read and utilize the bigbook...all the pages, and find it very helpful.

hendershot

I really liked the original post and then you said "We either take it as it is, or not at all." I am sorry but that attitude is BS. It is a false dillema--as AA people would say "take what you need and leave the rest." I don't see any reason to take everything the book says as gospel, some things I disagree with in the first 164. I don't think it was divinely inspired, just written by men taking ideas well formulated by other men: Jung, James, and others. Don't get me wrong, most of it is great . I tend to be on the side of the AA purists, in that at first you have to do everything exactly as it states and keep your objections to a minimum--there is more to be gained from this approach. Maybe that is what you were trying to get at. I guess I am just a little too used to big-book thumpers diminishing any objections to the book as an "ego problem" or "alcoholic thinking," etc. Reason can be used to justify all kinds of horrible alcholic behavior but it can likewise be used for all kinds of positive things--like deciding to join AA and quit drinking. There seems to be an aversion to critical thought in some sectors of AA that drives me nuts. Thanks for letting me rant a little.

paulmh

I enjoyed your rant - I feel like I could've written a lot of it!

I don't think we disagree - doing the programme as its instructed, rather than with all our reservations and "I'll do this but I won't do that" stuff is the best way to achieve the desired effect..

All I mean is that the book and a programme have purposes for us which go beyond what they have in them, and are more to do with what they mean to us. They bond us to each other, they are, as I think I said, "a common solution on which we all agree". We get the benefits of belonging to not just a shared misery, but a shared hope. Some people will criticise it because it doesn't "work for everyone" - some people within AA will even criticse the rest of us with, if we did it right then it WOULD work for everyone. Me, I love it BECAUSE it's imperfect.

Good to meet you.

Overman

@ paul

'Lite' for me.

The book is a guide, but not the final say on 'what works'. Concepts of humility, fellowship, making amends, etc have been around for thousands of years.


@ hender
Reason can be used to justify all kinds of horrible alcholic behavior but it can likewise be used for all kinds of positive things--like deciding to join AA and quit drinking. There seems to be an aversion to critical thought in some sectors of AA that drives me nuts.

Well said.

FightingIrish

There seem to be a lot of straw men bearing false dilemmas around here.

To those who say (pace Obama), "I sat in A.A. for (10/20/30) years without doing the steps...", I say:

Why?

Zencat

I'm thinking I'm a 12-step plus/light AA member. I like to read all the literature that AA has to offer. From that I get an impression. So I work from that impression. Now I'll be the first to admit my impressions may be limited somewhat. And over time my impressions can change. So with my current understanding, I sit in open AA meetings and hear a wide variety of peoples experiences with the AA program. Yet I also see a unified effect of those experiences: long term satisfying sobriety. Those experiences I hear shared by AA members range form "just don't drink" to "having a spiritual awaking as a result of the steps". There are others that seem to be less satisfied with sobriety. Yet they seen to have the same range of experience with the AA program. Again those experiences run the gambit from simply abstaining to an spiritual experience. From my perspective its hard to tell what to make of all this. Is the program open to such a wide array of personal experiences that a 12 step light or a 12 step purist approach matters much at all.