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Old 05-15-2019, 10:42 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Tiger Woods Bar Sued For Over Serving Known Alcoholic


Tiger Woods bar has been sued for over serving a known alcoholic according to the lawsuit. They said they knew that a 24 year old employee/patron had substance abuse problems, let him drink then leave in his car & crash thus killing himself.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tige...h-death-2019-5

Just as disturbing are allegations he was served while working and after work. And had just attended an AA meeting the night before.

But it's the responsibility question. Is the alcoholic responsible not to drive or people who observe them. If this guy was a known alcoholic and started AA meetings shouldn't he have known to at least not to drink and drive?
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Old 05-15-2019, 10:53 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Dram shop laws have been on the books for decades. There will be a lot of factors here, and it's controversial regardless. Apparently he wasn't on the clock and it was likely free (after hours) drinks, not sold to him; changes the liability.

The lawsuit is only asking for $15,000. That would just be a kindness to help pay for funeral expenses. I doubt there is any chance this goes to trial.
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Old 05-15-2019, 11:14 AM   #3 (permalink)
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This is very sad.
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Old 05-15-2019, 01:56 PM   #4 (permalink)
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J
But it's the responsibility question. Is the alcoholic responsible not to drive or people who observe them. If this guy was a known alcoholic and started AA meetings shouldn't he have known to at least not to drink and drive?
I highlight this part bc it jumped out at me - respectfully, I'm not sure if you're speaking as a family member of/friend/etc ie a non-alcoholic, or someone questioning their drinking or....but you're throwing logic at addiction, which simply doesn't work when someone is still drinking.

In my experience, as far as the question of responsibility: I am the only one responsible for my actual consumption; however, as a server/restaurant person, liability for serving responsibly to guests is true and...murky in practice. It's not up to me to decide whether or not to serve a "known alcoholic" - it's up to me (where I have worked) to judge whether I should serve or keep serving someone consuming alcohol on the premises - as well as judging whether they came in already intoxicated. It's not cut and dry, no pun intended - but it's real on all sides.
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Old 05-15-2019, 02:01 PM   #5 (permalink)
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.

But it's the responsibility question. Is the alcoholic responsible not to drive or people who observe them. If this guy was a known alcoholic and started AA meetings shouldn't he have known to at least not to drink and drive?
i knew the possible consequences of drinking and driving before i had attended any AA meetings and still did it. did it after court ordered attendance,too- court ordered due to a 2nd dui.
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Old 05-15-2019, 02:35 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I highlight this part bc it jumped out at me - respectfully, I'm not sure if you're speaking as a family member of/friend/etc ie a non-alcoholic, or someone questioning their drinking or....but you're throwing logic at addiction, which simply doesn't work when someone is still drinking.

In my experience, as far as the question of responsibility: I am the only one responsible for my actual consumption; however, as a server/restaurant person, liability for serving responsibly to guests is true and...murky in practice. It's not up to me to decide whether or not to serve a "known alcoholic" - it's up to me (where I have worked) to judge whether I should serve or keep serving someone consuming alcohol on the premises - as well as judging whether they came in already intoxicated. It's not cut and dry, no pun intended - but it's real on all sides.


As a non alcoholic. I get there frequently isn't rationale with the addicted but with a meeting fresh in mind/allegedly the day before one would think he would've had a tad more motivation to control his drinking period let alone drive drunk.

It does get dicey walking the line between good business practices including serving the customer and not enabling/facilitating an alcoholic. And as the saying goes familiarity breeds contempt. The staff being familiar with the employee prioritized his requests over precaution & safety.

To me the biggest flag here is the alleged drinking on duty. Not sure I even like employees hanging around before or after their shift. Many business don't want employees hanging around or want the customers to see employees doing nothing. There is 'a' management issue here but how severe in regards to responsibility probably not as much.
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Old 05-17-2019, 06:27 AM   #7 (permalink)
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THC in system

The employee/driver who killed himself in the accident also had THC in his system according to a blood test taken after the accident. To me this is a bigger indicator of the environment or employees that the bar tolerated-Employees drinking before, after and on duty. I can't help but think some employees were showing up to work drunk or high with regularity. That is a management issue.

https://nypost.com/2019/05/15/barten...g-fatal-crash/
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Old 05-17-2019, 06:32 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I worked in restaurants for decades. Substances are always available and the hours and atmosphere is conducive to partying. Most restaurants have free drinks after a shift. Some offer employees discounted alcohol and food, to encourage them to spend time (and money) there after work. The employees are mostly young. I don't think managers of restaurants have any more "say" over addiction than anyone else.


It's not financially possible to drug test every employee before every shift - so like every other business, you have to use some judgement but there is no way to police people, and from experience, a user can go from seemingly fine to drunk in minutes. Who knows if they did or didn't cut him off as soon as they noticed his intoxication? It isn't a predictable trajectory.

Are you just looking to blame someone? You should know there is no one to blame but the addict him/herself.
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Old 05-17-2019, 06:33 AM   #9 (permalink)
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To me the biggest flag here is the alleged drinking on duty. Not sure I even like employees hanging around before or after their shift. Many business don't want employees hanging around or want the customers to see employees doing nothing. There is 'a' management issue here but how severe in regards to responsibility probably not as much.
Do you have any experience working in restaurants yourself, or just observing? Because what you correctly but, respectfully, have a naive opinion about here is the reality in the vast majority of restaurant world life. Re-read that because....

it leads me to the growing awareness that low totem pole people like me, up to the really well known people like Andrew Zimmern, are working for- learning that you CAN live sober in our world. I lead a recovery group called Ben's Friends, which is part of a critical and growing movement to help both each other and the "outside" world to learn about the rampant misuse, overuse, and addiction that thrives in our world.

It sounds absolutely insane to people outside the restaurant/bar world but shift drinks, shots while working, the norm being to be hungover or ******up while working as long as you do your job well enough, managers getting high w staff out back, and so much more - it's the reality.

I'd also add that perhaps learning more about alcoholism and AA and the whole she-bang would be helpful to seeing that meeting attendance, for example, isn't going to prevent someone who wants to drink from doing just that. I can tell you many stories about folks coming to meetings drunk (I did it), leaving and going straight to bars, being there for tons of reasons besides wanting to get sober....it's just not a straight equation- especially because perhaps more "known alcoholics" keep drinking than recover.

I circle back to personal responsibility here (and acceptance that we can't use). There is a LOT involved in everything from owner-established practices, blind eye turning, even how to talk to employees about suspected problems...not to mention these truly "high level" issues like liability.

Lastly - lawsuits are really distractions when it comes to saving lives. Our own or helping others. I believe it starts way lower on a ground floor basis.

You obviously have an interest in recovery since you are here, so just questioning all this is good. Even my husband has found it shocking to learn what he has about the life I've been at my drunken worst in and now live in at my sober best. What would indeed be absolutely intolerable and fire-able offenses anywhere else are one reason that the restaurant industry is consistently top three among those with the highest rates of dependence, addiction, and mental illness as well. Wholesale change has to happen and having the gen public willing to learn too is an important piece.

It's truly a huge industry that impacts everyone out there in some way- whether customers, family of employees, other people affected by drunk people leaving work at 2am like we often do - countless things.
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Last edited by Opivotal; 05-17-2019 at 07:39 AM. Reason: Rule#9
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Old 05-17-2019, 06:37 AM   #10 (permalink)
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The only reason this made the news is because the name Tiger Woods is attached.
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:01 AM   #11 (permalink)
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These questions are not looking to agitate but to stimulate thought provoking dialogue. Has anyone here been in a bar and seen a drunk person? Did you step up to the plate and call the authorities about the drunk person? If not, why?
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:05 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Showing up to any job drunk or high is an issue. It's not about things like drug testing before every shift but the employee can be sent home or given a different job. An intoxicated employee on duty in any job/industry should not be tolerated(it's not reality but many strive for and succeed at minimizing employee drug use).

Management had reckless business practices in general not just the day of the accident. This should've been a red flag to one of the owner's lawyers, insurance companies, consultants etc. If the public/customers can notice these things so should management.

But yes the employee, drinker and driver are still ultimately responsible.
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:16 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Ha. Nez.

I used to work in a large Nevada casino. Drunk people were the norm not the exception but it was also a hotel so no one was going to call for drunk blackjack players. They could just stumble back to their room after they fell off their stool. We were never instructed with any formal response to drunkenness, but it was the 80s - so that may be different now. Doubtful, I've been in casinos in Nevada lately.

It was usually the valet parking that would call while stalling the drunk. They often got pulled over as soon as their tires rolled.

I mean, even working in a busy TGIFridays, there was a cop who sat across the street in the bank parking lot on Fridays and Saturdays and we knew we could call at any time and he would be there in two minutes.

My tactic was just to try to not over-serve them. That way I didn't get in trouble myself. I wasn't the alcohol police, though. No way to know how much more they drank over and above what I served them.

Drunks were escorted out of TGIF, sometimes by the police and sometimes by a large male employee or three. Ya can't police 'em once they leave, and the law says ya can't serve 'em once they *appear* intoxicated.

There's a vague legal term if ever I've heard one.
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Old 05-17-2019, 10:30 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Weed is now legal in many states for both recreational and medicinal use, and THC shows up on drug tests for a long time, sometimes days and even weeks. So a positive THC test in California or Colorado or Washington wouldn't really mean anything, and in fact is to me a violation of privacy for a lot of employees. It's not the job of employers to police the private lives of their employees with what they do off-hours. They do have reason to take steps to do what they can to monitor that employees are not impaired to do their jobs, especially when public safety is concerned, but if someone took a hit off a joint at a concert a day before they went to work, it's not really up to the employer to punish that person when their behavior has nothing to do with how their performance when they show up at work. Most people who drink or drug do not do so addictively.

This isn't just the restaurant industry. Friends of mine that work in tech know that there is a spot in the parking structure where everyone goes to smoke weed during the day. My old company had a very strict no drinking during work hours policy which meant that if you came back to work after having a drink at lunch, you could be fired (as could your manager if they saw you do so). This was notable due to its being an exception rather than the rule, the CEO was a teetotaler and loathed drinking in any form.

I met a guy in rehab who was a retired air traffic controller at a major LA area airport. He was also an opiate addict, and apparently found a way to game the system of drug testing and would show up at work high. THAT scared the bejesus out of me. I can't think of a job that requires sobriety more than an air traffic controller who has the lives of hundreds of people at stake, and is highly regulated....yet there was a least one one employee monitoring takeoffs and landings of jumbo jets while stoned out of his gourd on oxycontin. If that can happen, I'm not sure how your average local bar and grill is going to keep drugs and alcohol out of the workplace.
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