naz111

This sounds exactly what I have been experiencing. I have been reluctant to do the separation exercises and also to actually make a Big Plan instead of HOPE it is going to stick this time. Feel like a breath of fresh air. I'm going to read the book and the threads again. And take the time necessary to seriously think about a Big Plan and what it entiails.

I completely relate the the ignoring the AV and then being bombarded by it rather than letting it come and separating from it. Of course it is easy to not drink when there are no thoughts telling you otherwise. Until they come with strength, then I cave in.

dwtbd

It is actually easy to not drink when there are thoughts telling you to, if that weren’t true I’d still be a drinker !

I think the harder part is taking the necessary leap of faith to believe you can ignore the AV that is the doubt in your ability to remain abstinent.

Take the leap ,you’re worth it!

naz111

Thank you everyone for your helpful responses.

I’ve been reading through the avrt forum a second time and picking up a lot of helpful tidbits.

It is pretty easy for me to recognize the AV. However I was missing a very important component. To separate from the thoughts and feelings. They are not mine. The only purpose they serve is to keep my addiction alive.

Also, I had a recent experience where my AV went nuts. The craving was so intense and physical. My mind was all over the place telling me this is absolutely unsustainable and I can’t do this alone. I told a friend about it, didn’t want to be alone, and felt like white knuckling for half the day. I had moment where I felt it passed and then came back. I would say no, and the AV got more intense.

I never have experienced cravings this intense and actually endured them. I did eventually give in, but it showed me that no matter how bad I feel, even if I feel paralyzed by the cravings I don’t have to give in.

Sounds crazy but I feel like I needed to see this was possible in order for me to be even be able to comprehend quitting for good. I feel now I have the confidence to do so. Even though I am inviting those intense moments not knowing how long they will last, I can bear them and stick to my commitment.

advbike

The separation from the thoughts is key. Recognizing them for what they are. From the lizard brain.

Free2bme888

How are you, Naz?

DriGuy

I think the AV is the most intense and universal experience for all alcoholics.

I quibble with the literal explanation of the AV. It is actually our thoughts and feelings, although it may be helpful for others to treat them as something separate like a demon sitting on our shoulder and whispering suicidal thoughts in our ear. Self defeating and illogical though they are, they are habitual responses to our addiction. What we need to separate are our illogical and self defeating thoughts like "we deserve a drink" from our knowledge that as addicted alcoholics we can never have a drink.

Of course, we must first fully embrace the Big Plan, "I can never drink again." This knowledge is universally agreed upon by those in successful recovery. Testing this or modifying it toward a strategy of moderation only leads to failure. Once you own this, then thoughts of "one drink won't hurt," or "you have done well. You deserve a drink" become easily identifiable as illogical regardless if they are from an exterior demon or from your own sometimes subconscious habitual responses.

What is most important of all is to separate thoughts and feelings from our behavioral responses to them.

This is what you have to learn, to bear them and stick to the commitment, and the cravings will become less and less over time, until all that is left is are fleeting manageable thoughts that come fewer and farther between.

naz111

I am still struggling.

driguy, thank you for your response.

I am still so stuck in my head that I can’t seem to make a big plan largely because I thought I already did. Many times.

for those who are on the other side does it look like this:

despite all the false attempts, making a lifetime commitment to quit. This means, that when the AV speaks up I respond no. Never. No matter what. And struggle at whatever cost necessary to not pick up.

I don’t know how to passively let the AV be WHEN I can’t seem to grasp the idea of quitting for go BECAUSE of all of my past failed attempts.

DriGuy

OK so apparently you are good at identifying the AV, so maybe think of it this way. Instead of passively letting the AV be, respond actively when your AV sounds off with the appropriate response. Yes, not acting as directed by the AV is an active appropriate response.

I think the book mentions how some people take the Big Plan pledge, and then fail. I remember reading the introduction to this topic, but then being disappointed because the issue was not addressed to my satisfaction. Obviously, this can happen, and why people relapse has always puzzled me, so like you, I want answers, even though I've often said the answers why make no difference.

Now as to all your "past failed attempts," I don't understand why this should have any bearing on your present attempts. Past failures don't have to predict the future. Sure you may still struggle. The beginning of recovery usually is a struggle.

Therefore, your hypothetical "what is should look like:"

seems to me like it's spot on. And that coincidentally was the strategy I adopted years before I ever heard of AVRT's Big Plan.

You don't necessarily ignore the AV. In fact, isn't AVRT all about identifying the AV, so that you can be ready to refuse giving into it? And yes this is often a struggle, but you can learn to win a struggle. Later it will cease to be a struggle. You will still acknowledge the AV, and then choose not to drink. The end game is to never relinquish the power of your choice. The AV will always be there albeit growing less often and less intense as years pass, but you will always choose not to drink. Why would you do that? Because it's a damn good plan and a grownup choice.

biminiblue

Yeah, I don't think I could just ignore the AV, or "let it be." I actively answered back to it, "No. Thanks for being annoyingly Present, but I don't drink, now go away." I had to say it out loud more than a few times in early days.

It's persistent. For me, the incessant thoughts were the worst in the first month, then in the third month I felt really good physically and I wanted that to continue so that helped keep me going for a while. At about six months sober I had one last real psychological battle with the AV and when I won that one, it became super easy to dismiss after that.

I didn't follow AVRT or AA or any other particular program, but I knew I wanted to be done with drinking so every thought I had of drinking had to be countered in one way or another. Still to this day I have ways of dismissing the random thought of, "Wouldn't a drink be nice?"

"No. No, it wouldn't be 'nice.' It would be soul-crushing at this point."


Naz, can you make today the last day you have a drink? Keep it simple. The past is the past. Look forward.

msl999

Chapter 13 of Trimpey’s book, entitled “Lapses, Relapses, and Other Nonsense” addresses this. You may want to re-read that chapter.

freshstart57

I found that 'I can't drink anymore' to be less helpful for me than 'I have chosen to never drink again', a statement from a position of power.

Obladi

Hi nez,

I understand where you're coming from because I've been there. Every time I stopped drinking in the past decade, I really really meant that I was not ever going to drink again. And then I did. It might help you to let go of the need to be a concrete wall, as Trimpey advises us to be. For me, that was just another "fake it til you make it" tactic, and I'm just not that kind of gal. If I don't feel like I'm doing something authentically, then I feel fake - and that just doesn't work for me.

You're familiar enough with AVRT to see that the disclaimers in your post are all AV, right? It's just speaking for the beast, pointing out why it's futile for you to even try since you've already proved you can't live without satisfying It (the beast). So that's the R in Rational Recovery. I could understand that, intellectually, but something was obviously missing because I continued to stop & start & stop again. It was maddening, demoralizing - why couldn't I be like these amazing AVRT (or AA or otherwise sober) people and just face down that bully of the beast? Well, in part, because I didn't trust myself, so went on the opinions of other people - and when it was clear to others that I hadn't "really" made the Big Plan, that I was just being obstinate, or a sissy, or hadn't hit my bottom, or didn't 'want' it enough, I just felt like a loser.

I wrote earlier in this thread about what it took for me; in a nutshell, it came down to understanding and accepting myself - finding out where my anger and feelings of uselessness and being trapped came from. This was the stuff I couldn't face, had tricked myself into 'accepting,' but it was all just simmering in the cauldron at my side. Some part of me thought I literally would not be able to live through examining the pain I carried inside. Here's the rub, though - I had to get sober to be able to see this clearly and to do the work of digging in (or out, as the case may be). I'm not done with the dig yet. In fact, I relapsed spectacularly the middle of last month. Even so, here's what I can tell you - the preceding 2 years gave me the power to come out of the latest experience with the firm conviction that I'm a sober person who made the (bad) choice to drink.

Even those of us who fail can succeed.

I never drink now.
I'm 100% confident that you can do the same.

O

DriGuy

The strength of the "Fake it till you make it" strategy lies in the fact that the first part and the last part of this wisdom cleverly rhymes. Beyond that it defies logic. I don't think it works for anyone who actually thinks through what they are doing.

I think Trimpey is "in the ballpark" with his Big Plan in that he recognizes the necessary attitude, but he doesn't seem to recognize that the attitude cannot come from a pledge. It requires something deeper. I'd like to think anyone can still attain the attitude. For me, it seemed to be a thing that I recognized in myself, rather than me acting on information I was given. We know that a pledge does not always work. We know this from direct observation. There may be an array of ingredients needed in a working pledge. If I could give those to others, I would be famous. But they cannot be given. They need to be found, and that is the job of the alcoholic in recovery.

dustyfox

With hindsight I can look back at when I started - nearly a year ago now - and see that when I made that pledge of never drinking again I am pretty sure I didn't believe it - but I wanted to make the pledge because it heralded the beginning of of the slow journey of recovery, the work of recovery requires patience and belief/faith that this is the right thing to do.

It is not so much faking but acceptance that recovery is not a magic wand that is waved and hey presto you are recovered - no accept that the work is slow - the big plan becomes clearer and clearer as you get nearer and nearer it. Before any progress can be made, the pledge must be taken and a belief that the sentiments in the pledge are right.

DriGuy

When the concept of never drinking again was presented to me, I didn't jump all in right away. I only wanted to give it an honest try, kind of like testing it out to see if I could do it. It took a couple of weeks to actually internalize the forever concept into my being. As things started to get better, I realized I could actually do it if I really wanted, and a week after that, it's all I wanted. I never took the pledge. I just became the person who would never drink. Months later, after a brush with a near miss, I realized my power of choice would over-ride any thoughts of having a drink. So the whole change didn't just happen one night. How long did it take to become the person who never drinks? It's hard to say. It was a transition. But it was a vital change.

naz111

Still not getting it…

dwtbd

Sorry to hear that .

But what is it that you think you still don’t have ?

dustyfox

What is missing? What isn't clicking into place for you naz?

msl999

Be more specific.

In my last reply to you, I suggested that you re-read chapter 13. What part of it did you not understand?

This isn’t AA and nobody can do this for you. You need to put forth the effort. I’m not trying to be harsh, but it seems like you are waiting for something to happen instead of making it happen.

Get the book out, read it and find out what you don’t understand. We are here to answer questions and offer support, but ultimately it’s up to YOU to achieve permanent abstinence. Heck, let’s go through each chapter together & we can make sure you are grasping the concepts in the book. Deal?

naz111

Thank you guys. I’m glad I started posting on here.

what I don’t get is my voice. I hear the av, identify with it and act on it.

I will say “never” and it does nothing. I don’t feel like I mean it. It is not phased. I feel like, I’m my own head, I submit. Like I know it’s not going to stick, so I don’t even fight it.