pdm22

Are you familiar with Time Perspective Theory? There are different “time zones” (past nostalgic/ positive, past negative, present, present hedonistic, present fatalistic, future, transcendental future).

Most people are a mix, but with addiction, a person tends to be locked into present fatalistic (nothing changes, so why bother) & present hedonistic (sensation/ pleasure seeking, without thinking through consequences).

It can be weird at first, when newly sober / abstinent, when there’s a shift in the thinking; starting to think about the future & taking what might happen later into account.

Anyways, here’s a test, kind of cool to see where a person lies on the different time perspectives:

http://www.thetimeparadox.com/zimbar...ive-inventory/

Congrats on your 40 days!

weewillie

Dear soberFitness, Hi.

If I am reading you properly, and I do not wish in any way wish to interfere with the advice you have been given initially, but for me I could never have coped with the thought of staying sober from then on and forever.
I could only cope with each day as it dawned, even that was hard for me at the beginning of gaining sobriety.
It was the only way I could handle my future sobriety.

So what am I saying...I would just like to say, I wish you all the very best as you come to terms with the original instructions, the help, the advice that has been offered to you, and the comments in here.

Be strong, stick with it, never give up, fight the good fight>>>>
you are worth the effort.

Best wishes.
weewillie.

MindfulMan

The above is a very AA perspective, I believe. If you're going for AVRT, I found it very easy to make the commitment not to drink or drug ever again, as spending a modest amount of time in sobriety was far better than the years I'd spent drinking, even when drinking was social and casual.

I'm done. It's done. I have no reason why I'd ever drink again. It doesn't work for me, it's not all that pleasurable.

dwtbd

I think the only way to quit is to quit for good, forever, never again. Other wise I'm just planning to stop with the option of drinking again.

I'm done , I won't drink ever again even though I'm sure it would be pleasurable that first sip of relapse would be yummy.

Wholesome

Quitting for good is also the best way to expose the AV.

It stands out so clearly in opposition to the Big Plan of never drinking again. Anyone who's truly addicted will be able to make that distinction between the you who wants out, and the other you who wants to drink forever and damn the consequences. It was like a light bulb moment for me. Clearly seeing my dualistic internal struggle and finally "hearing" the voice for what IT was, not really ME.

weewillie

Hi there mindful man, your observation is abosolutely correct, my words are from an AA perspective, my sobriety was gained by attending AA.

I was however, at pains to point out to soberFitness....

1
I wish you all the very best as you come to terms with the original instructions (you received) in gaining sobriety, the help, the advice that has been offered to you.
2
and the comments in here. (the member's replies prior to mine)

My fault.
In order to be understood more clearly, I will try to be more specific in any future posts however, if any member refers to an AA topic I feel deserves a comment, I trust I will not be condemned for doing so.

I have no wish or enthusiasm to push anyone into AA thinking...that would be so wrong.
We all, have\had our own chosen path in achieving sobriety, quite rightly so. I am sure we all would agree that is the most important aspect.
Warm regards.

God bless.
weewillie

MindfulMan

Sorry WeeWillie. I have nothing against any recovery method that works. 12 Step works for millions. No judgement or condemnation.

I was just pointing this out that your post (and quite a few above it) are from an AA perspective. This is an AVRT-based forum and the OP was speaking from within AVRT. Nothing wrong with having opinions based on your recovery method of choice, I was merely pointing this out to the OP and other forum readers.

I use a mixed approach, and Step 1 remains a cornerstone in my recovery. But I'm also with the permanent abstinence perspective, the disease perspective, one-day-at-a-time, and regular meetings don't work for me, they keep me in an addictive place. Saying I'm done works far better for me, and SR is definitely part of my sobriety as well.

The two methods may seem mutually exclusive, but one of my favorite authors said that it was the sign of an intelligent mind to be able to hold two contradictory thoughts/ideas at the same time, and I agree.

That's ME. To each their own.

I agree with you mostly. But I don't agree that the first sip of relapse would be yummy. To me even that first sip would be distasteful. "How good it was" and "how good it'll be" is fiction written by the AV. If I look at it objectively, even a small alcohol (or coke or whatever) buzz is not that good or pleasurable.

biminiblue

Indeed. That ship sailed a very long time ago.

weewillie

I appreciate your quick reply MindfulMan, thank you.

I have to admit I did not realize this is an AVRT-based forum.
A case of not reading Dear Sirs to Yours Truly.

I have very speedily fallen into the habit of reading the content rather than the, heading first.

Put it down to new member enthusiasm, I guess.

Thank you again.

weewillie.

dwtbd

I’m pretty sure we’d all agree , in this little corner of the inter webs at least, that quitting is the cure
Intoxication in and of itself was always deeply pleasurable for me, living as person that valued experiencing intoxication above all else was erosive of mind, body and soul. The price was devastatingly too high, the ‘yumminess’ is surely not worth it.

But I can certainly imagine an almost guttural “ahh” upon sipping a glass of bourbon neat, but no matter what means just that, yeah? And even that imagined ahh isn’t worth it , only my AV thinks otherwise.

Can I survive living with a forever un-indulged desire , hell yeah , quite well as a matter of fact

Wholesome

At Christmas everyone was drinking these beers and going on about how good it was, so I smelled it, and a little voice said, "Have a taste, it's not drinking if all you are doing is seeing what it tastes like....." Hee hee hee yes it is. I knew exactly what it was going to taste like, and I knew I was going to like it.

Lascaux

Fabulous, thank you!

Mummyto2

MindfulMan

So far it's worked for me. I hadn't had any cravings whatsoever after making the decision not to drink, and recently have had some cravings due to extreme emotional trauma (not just my dog, the last six month have been hell for a number of reasons).

Although I had cravings, my decision to never drink again made them easy to resist.

The idea of shooting bourbon or sipping rum sounds TOTALLY FOUL AND DISGUSTING to me.

dwtbd

Are you familiar with RR/AVRT ? Through that lens the AV is any positive thought, image or feeling of future drinking and any doubt in your ability to remain abstinent. And that ending an addiction is to recognize and separate from those thoughts and dispel the doubt.

In AVRT agreeing with , listening to and acting on AV is the cause of active addiction.

Taking your statement literally turns that (AVRT) completely on its head, I don't at all doubt that what you said isn't true. I know the idea of never drinking again was so overwhelming that it lead to me deciding to have more booze to quiet the overwhelmingness.

After learning about AVRT I was able to recognize that the feeling of being overwhelmed at the prospect of never getting any more booze was a projection of my Beast's fear via my AV that without separation had Me convinced that living in a way to make sure I'd never again be a drunk, was too overwhelming a prospect to endure.

Crazy , right ?! Never being a drunk again is a crazy/scary proposition? wtf ?!

DriGuy

I remember thinking this was a great topic when this thread started 3 months ago. I didn't know what to say, because I could view the OP and it's opposite as both logically sound in some way. But I wasn't looking at it correctly.

I made a decision never to drink again, and I have held to it for near 25 years. The decision was a choice, and has only a tangential relationship to logic. Logic is a set of rules for thinking. Decisions are behaviors, and fall outside the purview of pure thought.

Decisions can be good, bad, neither, or both, and they will always be one of those, but logic is a process that is applied (seldom enough of the time), before the decision is made. A decision is nothing more than a choice. It is always subject to change. It may be based on logic or no logic at all.

Once cravings become reduced to manageable levels (and they will be), we recognize that we now have a choice not to drink, where before the issue was already decided. We would drink, because not drinking was unavailable to us before.

So let's take logic requirement out of the equation at this point. In essence, we are only pledging to always make the no drink choice. This is a behavior. Logic is not required and seldom rules our behavior anyway, but this is a case where the behavior counts all or nothing.

The logic should have been done long ago, and now it's time to leave the heady but important process behind us, and rely on choices with known outcomes to guide us. Don't get me wrong, I love logic, but sometimes we must control our behavior. Logic doesn't control our behavior. I suppose this is disappointing, but I think it's true. Logic and behavior are separate things, but both are important.

dwtbd

Making a Big Plan in AVRT is the ultimate irrationality. Consciously deciding to pledge to oneself to commit to unconditional abstinence directly flies in the face of the Beast's rational plan of having its desire, its reason for being indulged.

Viewed as a rouge survival instinct the drive itself 'acts' consistently and rationally toward its goal of 'more'.

Before separation from It, our goals and ambitions are simpatico with Its , we are one with It. Active addiction is the state of being 'all Beast', any action counter to or acting against our own interests would be irrational.

The question than becomes are we all Beast? Does the Beast encompass all that we are or is It only a part or aspect of our total 'selves'?

As an internal drive the Beast , qua entity, only 'sees' itself and acts to fulfill its needs, the AV is the mechanism that drives our interpretation that the Beast is an inseparable aspect of self, that It is more than a discrete, isolatable desire.

Conscious recognition that the desire for alcohol is just of one countless desires that we are 'subject' to, goes along way toward understanding how a desire can be felt and yet left unindulged.

The same mechanisms that produce the feeling of thirst , the desire for hydration and when acted on result in gaining and or keeping our 'health' are operative in the Beast. The glitch in the matrix is that Its desire , if acted on, is a net negative to health and ultimate survival.

Take the totally irrational stance that you pledge to never again drink and arbitrarily assign a guaranteed 100% success rate to the outcome because , as crazy as it sounds( to the Beast) you Can !

freshstart57

Soberfitness, let me offer another take on the time frame aspect of forever as part of the BP.

When I was thinking about my own BP, I understood I could choose not to drink this minute. And this minute. And this minute too. Whenever I got anxious about the whole concept of never drinking again, I told myself I could not drink for a minute very very easily. This then became 'I vow to never drink in the present moment' or 'I will never now drink'. Well what about in the future? No matter, because if you choose, you can decide that all actions, all experience, all being, can only happen, can exist only in the present.

What sealed the deal when I made this big plan was the immense feeling of relief. The AV wanted the deep pleasure that alcohol brings with it, but the rest of me, the best of me, was so very tired of the hangovers, the nausea, the blackouts, the depression, anxiety, shame and self loathing. The relief that came from the deep knowing that these were done for good was almost a giddiness, a giggling happiness that touched every part of my life.

You can do forever, Soberfitness. That's where the joy lies. Onward!

DriGuy

I think this personal experience is pretty much mine alone, but maybe someone can relate to it. When I was sick of being a drunk, but not yet ready to commit because the idea of no alcohol at all was too overwhelming, one of the reasons I used to avoid commitment was the remote possibility that I would lose control of my body, and against my own will even though I promised never to drink again, my hand and arm would pour a drink and force it down my throat.

Silly, I know, and I'm the last person to believe in demonic possession, but I might go so far as to believe that I might lose control of my mind, and an alternate personality (WetGuy) would emerge and take over. OK, maybe that's like a possibility of less than a fraction of one tenth of a percent. But if it did happen, and I had resolved never to drink again, I would be a liar, right? Well, maybe not actually a liar, but at least a dumb ass. OK then, call me a dumb ass, or even a liar.

The point is that these were nonsense scenarios that I had set up. Very possibly they were excuses to avoid making a promise to myself. You can't predict the future, but you can make a promise, and while you can't predict the future, you CAN shape it. Some things about the future you CAN control, and you CAN choose not to drink ever again... unless of course you don't want to.

The second day in the program, I promised I would accept the total abstinence goal of AA. I just promised myself I would go for it, and the transparency of my nonsense reasons for avoiding that commitment fell away so that at two weeks into the program I KNEW I would never drink again. I KNEW because while I can't predict a lot about the future, I realized I would always have the choice not to drink. And I was sick and tired enough of drinking that I KNEW I never would again.

You know, I don't think about this bull$hit anymore. When I think about the time I wasted creating nonsense scenarios where I would lose my choice over drinking, it boggles my mind. You can choose not to drink. It's not as big a deal as you think and you don't have to be a mental Titan to do it.

fini

dunno. i do have concern about dementia....i saw my mom suffer with it, and how the "choices"she/her brain made were not hers as such.
my mom enjoyed half a glass of wine or so, usually (or one tiny brandy when much younger), and always found beer distasteful to her.
in dementia, at a family get-together, she eagerly accepted a tall lass of beer from my brother, proceeded to declare she really liked beer, always had, drank the whole thing in a few minutes......
this is the only scenario that concerns me. losing my mind. it concerns me in more ways than the one related to potential drinking, of course, but there it is.