Cerberus

I have no problems with AA, nor with people who find AA useful - my only problem is with evangelism. And even that I could handle if once I say, "thank you for your information, but it's not for me" that could be the end of that. It's the pushy evangelists that continue to preach and are intolerant of any other viewpoint that get me, and in my opinion, cause the drama. And this goes for zealots on either side of the argument.

Sharing of information, answering questions asked, that's awesome. trying to push your views as the only views - well there's no way I will stand for that because it's wrong and only my way is correct! (tongue firmly planted in cheek here, in case you couldn't tell)

So maybe the secular forum is just a very good way for us to lay low and have our discussions without drawing in the zealots. hopefully!

Cerberus

I'd be interested in more info on Jack himself, too. I am reading Rational Recovery and while I am agreeing with the methods, I get an odd squishy feeling from some of the commentary. Jack sometimes comes across as a bit of an extremist himself. For example some of the suggested "dos and don'ts" come across kinda like Mel Gibson in Conspiracy Theory. Which is not to say that they aren't true!

Terminally Unique

For a long time, Rational Recovery went to bat for many who were literally forced into addiction treatment, often from within the US prison system. The suggested "dos and don'ts" are a reflection of the experiences of such people. Much of this was covered in the Journal of Rational Recovery, no longer in print, but available in archive format. I don't know how things are in Canada, but speaking for myself, those suggested "do's and don'ts" allowed me to avoid many costly mistakes I might not have otherwise.

Cerberus

This does make sense, especially when you are talking about the US prison system. I think in Canada things are only, maybe, a bit less rigid - or maybe that is just an illusion too!

I do think labeling someone, just to have a label and put them into a box is an insane way to try to 'help' someone. The story in the beginning of the book about the man on probation who confessed to having had one drink after working 2 years towards getting his life back and getting put back in jail because of it by a social worker claiming to have his best interests at heart....THAT did stay with me. I mean, how dare you? How does that benefit anyone. I suppose that is the intent of those dos and don'ts. I was trying to relate it to my own situation, i suppose.

PS, AVRT - I sheepishly confess, at least until I started reading the book, to sometimes wondering if you are Jack here in disguise!

soberlicious

Morning Glory you all certainly have a challenging job. it must be a difficult job as i would imagine it difficult to walk the fine line between keeping the peace and censoring. I'm thankful there are people like you who want to do it because I think it would be really tough. Thanks for all you do. I'm glad you shared some bakground information. I have made my feelings known in earlier posts, and I hope that I have been able to convey my opinions in a manner that is in keeping with your definition of discussion. I did bring up Trimpey because I do find him reactive, dogmatic, and narrow-minded. Those things have no place in my life and could be a danger to my sobriety...if I let them be. HOWEVER, the tools of AVRT can be and are very useful for many and I'm glad they can be discussed. I do speak my mind and I always respect others when they do...even if I don't agree.

My AV also told me I was not outgoing, funny, smart, or attractive without her. Ha...I showed that b*&%$. I am all of those things. The beast lies.

Terminally Unique

LOL. I can assure you that I am not Jack Trimpey in disguise. I can say with a very high degree of certainty, though, that Trimpey has not personally been on the SoberRecovery forums. I can't speak to what he might think if he saw my posts on here, though. He might view it as (gasp!) a need for "support" on my part in order to stay sober. :-)

I'm still working out how to respond to the inquiry about SMART recovery and "The Small Book" from rreni4 without derailing this thread too much. Trimpey has declared the book obsolete, and while I would not use it as a primary resource, I don't view it as entirely obsolete myself. I think it still has some value.

onlythetruth

Indeed. I feel the same way. I have absolutely no issue with the existence of AA or any 12 step program. 12 step deserves a seat at the table of recovery options. It shouldn't have ALL the seats, though, while the rest of us have to sit on the floor, or leave the room entirely!

As far as RR goes, it's funny, when I quit drinking RR and AA were the only recovery programs I was aware of and Trimpey's extreme anti-AA stance really turned me off. I think there is a lot of value to the AVRT technique, but Trimpey--ai ai ai!--he came across as a vigilante, and I couldn't take it! So I ended up in AA, which was really not a good fit for me, because RR, which was probably a better fit, made itself unpalatable.

So it goes....

Terminally Unique

I don't particularly care what Trimpey thinks about other issues besides recovery from substance addiction. My dentist is a certifiable jackass, and I don't believe a word he says, but he does a bang-up job when I need him to do what he is there to do, so I use his services for that. Likewise, I believe that Jack Trimpey does know precisely what he is talking about when it comes to permanently quitting one's addiction to alcohol and other hedonic drugs, in spite of any other ideas he may have.

What's that old line? Principles, not personalities...

Cerberus

yes, i think that would have scared me at one point as well, before learning that the technique works that is. And while AVRT is right about Trimpey knowing:

precisely what he is talking about when it comes to permanently quitting one's addiction to alcohol and other hedonic drugs, in spite of any other ideas he may have


I wonder if the attitude scares a lot of folks of because of how "vigilante-ey" (is that a word?) he sounds at times. It may feel to some like, hmm, if he sounds crazy about that, maybe this idea is not so great...

but again we are talking more about Jack than AVRT here I suppose.

AVRT, I'm sure it says somewhere around here, but how long have you been using this method and how did you discover it?

soberlicious

I agree...I don't relying on my dentist's philosophies about life either...but often people in the throes of addiction are looking for answers, desperate for answers, not looking to get a tooth pulled. If can be confusing and mind boggling when you hear so many things defined as "the right way" or "the only way". That goes for RR, AA, any religion, politics, etc. That nonsense kept me in a place of being almost paralyzed to take any action at all toward my recovery. So fairly early on I just decided cut all the white noise and do what I needed to do that made me happy and able to function. Trimpey can't tell me what is right for me, Wilson can't tell me what is right for me, the church can't tell me what is right me me, and the aethists of america can't either. But I can glean much useful information from all of them and use all available resources to get what I need. On this journey, getting what I need continues to change because this goes far, far beyond "sobriety" for me...so I will continue to seek because it feels right and it works for me.

you guys are awesome.

rreni4

Thanks for the message and advice Dee74!! I'll try this again with your input!! (Now I know what PM means...)

If anyone wants to respond to my question of before, without posting here and getting the group off track, PLEASE private message me. Again, I'm just trying to understand what happened.

Here is my original post:

I was wondering if someone could give me some more history on the Rational Recovery/SMART Recovery/Jack Trimpey thing. I know they split because Jack wanted to go for profit. I'm reading The Small Book, as recommended by SMART, but found the Rational Recovery book kind of bizarre. It seems like Jack Trimpey kind of wigged out by his second book. I've also explored the RR website and Jack's persoanl website. Any help?

Zencat

Hi rreni4.

Welcome to SR and to the Secular Connections Forum.

Terminally Unique

I posted about this in another thread:

How did you find recovery?

I've been using AVRT for a few years now.

rreni4

Thanks Zencat and much thanks for the PM, AVRT. I would be VERY interested in the "debate" you mentioned...I couldn't PM you back till I had posted to the group 5 times....
Thanks again!!

Cerberus

yes! of course i remember reading that now. darn all those brain cells I destroyed previously. Thanks AVRT

Terminally Unique

The addiction treatment field, though highly profitable, is still largely unregulated. Furthermore, addicted people are highly vulnerable to manipulation, and they tend not to look very far for help. There are plenty of hucksters out there who will happily take advantage of this. This can be applied in all aspects of life, but my advice is to trust your instincts. If something doesn't make sense to you, don't attempt to believe it.

abc

So true. Desperate people are the best clientele. For a business *OR* a religion.

ElvisInASkirt

My AVRT is working exceptionally well this weather.

Still find it counting dates and creating a feeling of unease within. I just catch the breeze and let it die.

Still to read RR all the way through. I just pick it up and read random sections from it. I find it good for that. Will be reading it in a bar later on today. I'm going all out to break false associations.

onlythetruth

rreni: I hope the mods don't find it offensive for me to cut and paste here what the SMART Recovery website has to say about the split between RR and SMART:

Q. What is the history of the relationship between SMART Recovery® and Rational Recovery?

A. SMART Recovery, a non-profit corporation, was originally named the Rational Recovery Self-Help Network, and was affiliated with Rational Recovery Systems, a for-profit corporation owned by Jack Trimpey. In 1994 the non-profit changed its name to SMART Recovery, and ended all affiliation with Trimpey. This change occurred because of disagreements between Trimpey and the non-profit's board of directors about the program of recovery to be offered in the self-help groups.


Q. What are the differences between SMART Recovery® and Rational Recovery (RR)?

A. The ultimate organizational authority in SMART Recovery® is the Board of Directors. The ultimate program authority is scientific knowledge and rational thought, as interpreted by the Program Committee and Board of Directors. In RR, the ultimate authority for all issues is the owners. SMART Recovery® has a broad program that includes attention to motivation, urges, problem-solving and lifestyle balance. From the perspective of the SMART Recovery® Program, RR (as of 1997) appears to have a narrower focus, primarily on urge coping. Earlier RR (as expressed in The Small Book, which is on the SMART Recovery® Recommended Reading List) had a broader focus. SMART Recovery® offers groups, publications, and an Internet listserve discussion group. RR offers educational workshops and publications.

onlythetruth

Soberlicious, you are SO far ahead of where I was when I made the decision to quit drinking!!! You are absolutely right, of course. Perhaps my own viewpoints are colored because of my extreme naivety when I got sober. I never tried to quit before I actually quit, so I hadn't been through the recovery and relapse ringer or had a reason to think critically about different recovery pathways. I just showed up at a local rehab (picked out of the yellow pages!) and trusted the counselor they assigned to me, who was a long term AA member and who definitely tried to steer me away from RR. So in addition to thinking that Trimpey was a bit off the beam (and he was less so back in 1998 than he seems to be now), AA definitely had a leg up and was presented as definitely being the "best" way. It didn't hurt that at this rehab, the 12 steps were on the wall, the Father Martin Chalk Talks were played, AA meetings and sponsorship were a required part of all treatment plans, etc.

It is so absolutely true that there is no perfect path to recovery and that in the end the only thing people who "make it" have in common is a commitment to sobriety.