freethinking

Oh, I see - he meant dependence on the book or "the other program" or whatever method/program you are following.

Not sure I agree with that. I don't remember that from the other program....people seemed quite happy to follow the steps, etc and very grateful for the program itself. Granted, I have not read Trimpey's book from cover to cover, but I haven't felt yet that he suggests if you don't follow it 100% that you will fail. But again, I haven't read it closely admittedly. I guess I'm not following it as seriously as some others have though, so I could be wrong. At any rate, I am grateful for the concept itself - I just don't follow everything in the book. Simple as that.

Last Call

I am not getting this discussion I guess. I have only read through about 2/3 of the book, but I don't see RR trying to create any long term associations/dependencies. In fact what I read seems to indicate that once your thinking is "right" you become a normal person that doesn't drink. At that point you no longer need the book or anything else to stay sober. What am I missing?

freethinking

We were responding to what TU said - about how people sort of resist or fight or are contemptuous against what they are dependent on. So if the assertion is one is dependent on or employing AVRT, then I guess we are somewhat dependent on it? I wasn't entirely sure what he meant actually (see his above comment), so I could be wrong. I don't know, now I'm confused as to what we're talking about too...

Watcher

I believe the practice of reminding your beast of what it wants is to avoid falling complacent. When you get to the point that you can easily recognize and control the AV, it gets easy so to speak, like second nature. So by tempting your beast you can remind yourself how to exercise the control you already have over your AV so that it can't bite you in the ass when your not attentive to it.

Last Call

I think beast tempting is a separate discussion from long term dependency on a program, but maybe not. My 2 cents on this topic though is I have no need to artificially manufacture conditions that might tempt my beast, life in American society seems to do a fine job of that with no help from me.

DrivenHeart85

I agree Last Call. If I sit at home on my couch or drive my car, that's enough to get my AV riled up. I live in a heavy drinking culture, which is why I say I don't want to tempt my Beast because it is tempted enough. I live in WI and our grocery stores build their liquor departments like cathedrals, I could post pictures to prove this. lol

Terminally Unique

AVRT is just the lore of self-recovery in a brief educational format, and most people figure it out on their own, without ever hearing the magic words, Rational Recovery or AVRT. Jack Trimpey is just presenting his findings based on his experience with and observation of addicted and recovered people, but this doesn't mean that if you don't follow his recommendations exactly, that you will fail.

I have read RR: The New Cure, The Art of AVRT, much of the Journal of Rational Recovery, both "crash courses," and many threads from the original RR BBS. I posted many tips on here gleamed from my reading that I found useful, but to be honest, it took a while for AVRT to "click" with me. What I found useful may not necessarily be everything you need, just as some people who posted on the BBS had trouble with things I did not.

What, you think I don't know the feeling of waking up hungover and saying "never again!" and then doing it again that same evening? Or the times I quit for months and started up again? Or quitting smoking 157 times, once for over two years and then going back to it again? What makes this last time different? I can't explain it, but I just know it is.

Yes, at times, I read the material and thought "Trimpey, you ****head, what does this have to do with quitting?" and I don't agree with everything he writes. Ultimately, I believe his chief contribution is spelling out clearly that there really is no help for you, and that you have to figure out how your own Addictive Voice works.

Trimpey has often referred to AVRT as a seed idea, or a meme that grows on its own. Much of this is trial and error, and some learn slower than others. Once you do, though, you will know that you are free. In my case, the Beast is finally finished. I have ITs number, and I am a recognition machine on autopilot. In short, I am powerless to drink.

Terminally Unique

While addicted, the Beast held you for ransom, jerking you around every which way. It organized your life around ITs wishes and declared "Before me, you are powerless !!!" Jerking IT around is just a way to lift the illusion that you are powerless and put the SOB in ITs place. It can also be a way of grasping the I/IT split.

DH85 is correct, though that all self-doubt is the AV, and I posted an example of this somewhere. If you think "Wow! This AVRT is great! I can't wait to try it out at Joe's BBQ!" - that would be pure AV. Why? Because "trying it out" suggests that you might drink again.

I posted about this here:

Rational Recovery

Watcher

First time last night, while reading Trimpey's book was I able to actively identify the I/IT split. Previously I could always recognize the AV and exercise control over IT, but I never actively heard myself attribute the desires to the IT. Last night I had thoughts of drinking and IT said, "weren't those fun times?" I was able to identify that IT wanted to drink, not me.

Then followed the reminder to myself that I don't drink.

DrivenHeart85

I started reading Tame the Feast Beast and between that book and TU's statements, I'm starting to wonder what's up with all of this talk about dependency on things other than your actual DOC. I'm keeping the mods too busy today so I'm going to think of a better way to ask this.

Do you think taking your addiction to a recovery group breeds dependency? Do you think it could even be a switch from DOC dependency over to dependency on the group, therefore swapping one addiction for another?

FT

Hi DrivenHeart,

For me, the "group" issue is moot where self-determination-based recovery is concerned. Don't quote me on that, because I just made up that term and maybe it doesn't work for anybody else.

My take on AVRT is that it is the opposite of dependency, on anything. Including a book. All a book does is outline concepts. It's up to you do to the rest. In AVRT you have only yourself to "depend" on. No group. No book. No "other".

That said, I'm not going to give an opinion about whether belonging to a recovery group breeds dependency. I believe that is outside the parameters of AVRT based recovery and probably best asked on one of the threads that are about group-based recovery.

The above statements are my thoughts only, as I am not a spokesperson for AVRT.

FT

DrivenHeart85

I am always misunderstood on here. Always.

I just was curious if that's what separates AVRT from group recovery methods. Independence vs. dependence. If I ask on another thread, I'll be slapped over the head with a big book.

I spark conversation on here to grow my own insights into recovery and into this method and I'm slammed down for being off topic or not lovey dovey for AVRT even though I do use and appreciate the method.

So I'm sorry for stating my opinions, I'm sorry for asking questions, I'm sorry for being curious, I'm sorry for wanting to learn more, I'm sorry I don't like to sit still and wonder about things when there's a resource like this right at my finger tips.

FT

Hey DrivenHeart,

Before you come down so hard on my response, you might want to read back through some of these threads.

This thread almost got shut down awhile back when it veered too far off topic from AVRT. What happens when the topic veers over to the merits of AVRT versus groups or 12 step programs is that invariably any opinions strongly opposed to group or program-type recovery gets viewed as AA-bashing. AA-bashing is not going to happen on this thread. I'm not suggesting that is what you were trying to get started, but it goes there almost every time this happens.

So, probably that's why you haven't gotten much response to the topic. Most of us just respectfully submit that our choice of recovery methods works well for us, and we have nothing against the other programs. Even if we do.

FT

SunshineSally

I think any one of us can read RR with a different view or paradigm if you will. It's always a "whatever works" design we each have to discern for ourselves. I like RR because of the privacy and the tools it gave me to pay close attention to how my mind and heart works. When I wanted to stop but then drank after a period of time, I learned from it, continued to be resolute, and eventually I stopped. It was definitely in fits and starts for a while. Some people can stop overnight, but I wasn't one of those people. The way I view the Beast may be different from a lot of others, but that's OK. If it turns out I'm not a purist with AVRT in exactly the way Jack T. intended down to the last minutia, it's fine. The bottom line is simply closing that chapter of drinking for good. That's the bottom line for everyone with whatever works for them.

freethinking

I agree, SS!

DrivenHeart85

I hope this isn't going to offend anyone but I was looking at Eckhart Tolle's "A New Earth" online and found this about addictions:

"ADDICTIONS
A long*standing compulsive behavior pattern may be called an addiction, and an addiction lives inside you as a quasi*entity or sub* personality, an energy field that periodically takes you over completely. It even takes over your mind, the voice in your head, which then becomes the voice of the addiction. It may be saying, “You've had a rough day. You deserve a treat. Why deny yourself the only pleasure that is left in your life?” And so, if you are identified with the internal voice due to lack of awareness, you find yourself walking to the fridge and reaching for that rich chocolate cake. At other times, the addiction may bypass the thinking mind completely and you suddenly find yourself puffing on a cigarette or holding a drink. “How did that get into my hand?” Taking the cigarette out of the packet and lighting it, or pouring yourself a drink were actions performed in complete unconsciousness.
If you have a compulsive behavior pattern such as smoking, overeating, drinking, TV watching, Internet addiction, or whatever it may be, this is what you can do: When you notice the compulsive need arising in you, stop and take three conscious breaths. This generates awareness. Then for a few minutes be aware of the compulsive urge itself as an energy field inside you. Consciously feel that need to physically or mentally ingest or consume a certain substance or the desire to act out some form of compulsive behavior. Then take a few more conscious breaths. After that you may find that the compulsive urge has disappeared * for the time being. or you may find that it still overpowers you, and you cannot help but indulge or act it out again. Don't make it into a problem. Make the addiction part of your awareness practice in the way described above. As awareness grows, addictive patterns will weaken and eventually dissolve. Remember, however, to catch any thoughts that justify the addictive behavior, sometimes with clever arguments, as they arise in you mind. Ask yourself, Who is talking here? And you will realize the addiction is talking. As long as you know that,
as long as you are present as the observer of your mind, it is less likely to trick you into doing what it wants."


It's pretty much AVRT...kinda cool how everything is related to the general concept of recognizing your addictive voice.

Tippingpoint

I can really connect with Tolle. He's so good.

I've read Power Of Now about 4 times already but I get more out of it each time. Thanks for posting this.

Terminally Unique

This is good, and for a long time I couldn't get the I/IT separation thing, kept thinking there's no such thing as a Beast, etc. The separation is what will give you the ability to kick back and relax, as opposed to struggling against the Addictive Voice, though. You just observe the AV, detach, and move on. Keep at it, and eventually, this will become second nature, practically effortless, like riding a bicycle. Once you get the hang of it, even "slippery places" or "triggers" won't phase you.

lostbutterfly

have spent a few days reading part one, and intend to do the same with part two. But before i do, just wanted to say thank you. I felt like i "failed" at aa, and there was no other way. The people there were so great and even the atheists seem to get it. Understanding the base brain makes so much sense. I always thought i was arguing with an equal! What a relief! So far, has been effortless. In the past, i have had to take it one hour at a time, white knuckling all the way.

kanamit

Can animals get addicted according to the structural model of addiction? I must admit I don't understand the difference between a human brain and an animal one.