RobbyRobot

Awesome again, Dalek.

I'll add this:

Sometimes these truths are difficult to grasp when one dosen't remember that it is always in the 'now moment' with AVRT. So, saying -- I dont do this, or I dont do that -- or never this and never that -- or anything that is time-conditioned will get noticed by the Beast, and the AV kicks into action. This is why a Big Plan kicks the hell out of a Beast when we say we will never now drink again.

Dalek

It would certainly be fair to assume you are saying that you are more likely to make a typing mistake on your phone. We all know what a "mistake" might mean in the original context. AVRT is about perfection, and there is no room for mistakes ("slips"). You can play with words, but AVRT will slice right through the word play.

Also, my interpretation of this whole "easier" vs "harder" thing is not really that far-fetched, is it? When addicted people say that quitting is "not easy" or "too difficult", most of us intuitively know what they mean by that, even without AVRT.

Translation: "I can't do it, it's too hard, I wish it were easier, if only it were easier, then I could do it."

How many times have you heard someone say "quitting is so hard" (AV) on this site alone? It is usually followed by more AV from someone else trying to reassure them, in the form of "yes, quitting is hard, but..."

Recovery is only difficult for the Beast. For us, recovery is as easy or as difficult as we want it to be.

No separation here. Cravings suck for whom? You or the Beast?

Why not? By themselves, cravings and desires are harmless. They cannot fulfill themselves. Remember, the Beast (addictive desire) is not the cause of your addiction -- the Addictive Voice is. It is only through the AV that the Beast can get what it wants, and recognition (a passive, effortless act) neutralizes it.

Saskia

Dalek, thanks for your comments. You make some good points that I will think about further.

For a few items, I suspect I didn't make my statements clear enough. You quoted me as saying "I quit smoking almost 30 years ago. I used similar constructs and after a few months have had absolutely no cravings or interest in ever smoking again." And yes, I did say that but afterwards corrected myself and said that I almost automatically handled the cravings and so it felt like I didn't have cravings until I really thought about it. So I wasn't saying that I no longer have a beast. I certainly know that I do!

By "bad 'cravings'", I was referring to the initial first few days which are different for me than later. I did not mean to suggest that I didn't have cravings, only that the first few days are, for me, the worst.

Again, I feel you selectively quoted something I corrected.


Absolutely yes! I was not aware of AVRT prior to May of this year and so am still absorbing and trying to understand.

I appreciate your comments but would also ask you to consider that we all sometimes make a comment that, upon reflection, we realize does not truly represent what happened/is happening. So to go back to quoting the original statement multiple times is, imho, a clear and willful misrepresentation.

And finally, I don't believe that any method of dealing with addiction has the "final and only word" on how things work. I believe AVRT is a reasonable method to deal with addiction for me, but I don't believe in dogma -- and blanket statements (though I admit to sometimes making them - lol). Although I have limited experience with AVRT, I have extensively used self-hypnosis, mindfulness meditation and similar methods to calm my mind and separate parts of my mind that are not working in my best interests. When I use these practices on a regular basis, they are sufficient to maintain sobriety. However, I am not good about staying on track with a regular practice (beast activity, I suspect now) and I think the addition of AVRT to regular practice and using AVRT to keep to regular practice will enable me to better deal with the beast.

I do wonder if dogmatic devotion to AVRT is also beast activity...

ReadyAndAble

This is a great discussion! Dalek, you rock—I really appreciate your attention to detail, and unrelenting vigilance in looking for the AV.

No, it wouldn't. You are adding a layer of meaning that is simply not there. I do not enjoy typing on my phone. I don't like the way it feels pecking on the glass, I don't like the fact I have to slow down to avoid making mistakes (beyond my normal level of typos). But your assertion assumes that I would not take the extra time and care required to avoid making additional mistakes—and that is not what I said.

That's an accurate translation of many posts we see on SR. However I think I made it clear that my confidence level is at 100%, come hell or high water. Believe me, when the crap starts flying, in no way am I tempted to let the Beast out of the cage.

100% agreement. They cannot harm me or weaken my commitment. I'm running the show at all times. But that doesn't mean they are pleasant. Is it crippling? No. Does it frighten me? Not at all. I realize the Beast is the source of it, and it's a manifestation of its desire to drink. I will never drink. I accept that they will occur from time to time, probably forever, as you noted earlier. I don't expect the Beast to die; maybe slumber for long periods, but not die. I repeat, I will never drink.

To say something is easier and more enjoyable one way, is not the same as saying the other way is too difficult. At least it doesn't mean that when I say it.

I am worried about Jack Trimpey, though. Look carefully:

Hmmm. What if it doesn't? Why does Jack care if it falls silent?

Come on, Jack! Tighten up those bolts!!!

Lenina

For me, the hardest part was making the decision to quit drinking. Once I had committed to permanent abstinence, I don't feel a struggle. I acknowledge the impulse and move on. Does it not work the same way for you guys?

Love from Lenina

imaquitter

I'm the same way as I'm sure almost everybody is but I can usually get past that most painful part so thats why I'm using AVRT.

It's later that I slip up and my AV starts telling me that I can handle a few drinks or binge once a week or something. Before it was always a battle but now it's just NO, or HAHA, you really want one huh? lol It's good that you can separate the addiction because I'm always big on making fun of things anyway so this could turn into a game without me actually beating myself up over whether or not to drink all the time :rotfxko

Saskia

Yes, Lenina, I agree. That becomes so automatic for me that I become only semi-aware of it so that I don't dwell on it. And that works for me with cigarettes. With my prior sobriety, however, I don't think that I had committed as fully to it as I needed to so that's what I've done now.

ReadyAndAble

Hi, Lenina.

Most of the time, yes. I too have much less struggling thanks to my commitment to forever/never/now. My original point is that I think it's OK for me to acknowledge and be grateful for the smoother path, without anyone inferring that I am unable to cope with the occasional bump in the road.

I may have overstated the case against cravings in my earlier post. It's not like I'm sitting in a chair, fingers digging into the armrests, sweat on my forehead, battling my way through. When an AV thought comes, I see it, I become aware of the tension that rises within me, and I take a breath and wait for it to go. Like I said before, it's hardly crippling or painful. But I'm just being honest—if I had a choice, in that moment I would prefer to be thinking about something else. I'd rather be thinking about a funny joke or an interesting book or whatever. I only have so many minutes on this planet.

It's kind of like the "I'd rather be fishing" sticker you see on cars. That doesn't mean they can't drive, or that driving causes physical pain. It just means that if they had their druthers, they'd rather be fishing. And yeah, being stuck in traffic sucks.

(Did I just say druthers? Who says that?)

Kind of along the lines of what Saskia is saying, I just think it's possible to go too far in our quest to spot AV. Before you know it, we'll be burning innocent thoughts at the stake.

Also, while my Big Plan is permanent, my thoughts and feelings are not etched in stone. Catch me on another day and I might tell you I am grateful for the occasional craving, because it reminds me how far I've come.

I am one complicated mofo!

RobbyRobot

Interesting!

I still feel my sober living / sans-alcohol life struggles, although I don't struggle with desire for drinking alcohol, because my Beast owns those struggles. Its a very subjective level of experiences we are talking about here. It took some time for my alcoholic mind to change out, and as that process progressed, my struggles and my Beast's struggles are distinctly seperated. I no longer 'feel' alcoholic anxiety and obsessional forces, I'm not a prisoner or victim to my alcoholism, and I'm mindful with AVRT that my alcoholic desire is simply elsewhere, not extinct, or gone... just elsewhere.



This thread rocks.

RobbyRobot

Nicely said, Saskia. Interesting dynamics.

Dalek

Regarding all this discussion of what is Addictive Voice versus what is not Addictive Voice...

The definition of the Addictive Voice is very precise:

1. Any thinking or feeling that supports, or even suggests, your future use of alcohol or drugs.
   
   
2. An expression of the appetite for pleasure induced by alcohol or drugs, or the Beast.

Personally, I would also add a third variant:

Essentially, though, for the purpose of clearing up any possible confusion from these last few posts, to which I myself have contributed, the desire for any special condition in order to abstain is AV. To illustrate the difference between what would constitute AV and what would not, I'll use a scenario that I think is probably universal to anyone who quits habitual drug use, but with different interpretations.

Suppose you drank for eight hours a day, and then quit drinking. You now have eight hours of free time that were formerly taken up by drinking. Compare these similar, yet very different thoughts.

1. I need to find new activities in order to fill up the free time. (This is not AV)
   
   
2. I need to find new activities in order to not drink. (This is AV)
   
   
3. I need to find new activities in order to lessen the probability of drinking. (This is AV)

RobbyRobot

Yeah, no problemo with any of that definitive post, Dalek.

And for the record, I welcome your excellent efforts to detect AV in my posts, so speaking for myself, have no concern about my feelings or whatever, lol. We may not end up agreeing with each other all the time, but no matter, I absolutely respect your expertise, and I''m here to learn, and be helpful myself as well.



P.S. And of course, anyone else is welcome to AVRT with me too, no problemo.

Dalek

It would be ridiculous to say that AVRT it is the only way to recover from an addiction, since people have been doing it since before AVRT was ever set forth. Even RR acknowledges that people quit without using anything at all, including AVRT. However, AVRT is essentially a closed system which operates on the certainty principle, whereas most other addiction recovery models operate on the uncertainty principle.

In other words, most addiction recovery models say that you need to do "X, Y, and Z" in order to abstain. Problem is, AVRT will identify the idea that any special condition is necessary for abstaining (the X,Y,Z), including working other programs, as Addictive Voice. Even the idea that you need to continually practice AVRT in order to abstain is AV. Consequently, AVRT simply does not mix well with other addiction recovery models.

From the crash course on AVRT -- (flashcard 28):

RobbyRobot

Yes, Saskia had it figured correctly, and I agree too. AVRT is yet another adventure on a wonderfull journey!

Dalek

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I'm just not inclined to discuss other recovery models in this particular thread, because I know what will happen. Kind of like trying to mix democracy with totalitarian government. Yes, there are examples of both in this world, but...

It is not a personal dogma per se.

RobbyRobot

I hear that. I agree that AVRT dosen't play well with others, lol. The exclusion of other methods in this thread is no problem for me, and I welcome the distinctions AVRT demands. YAY!!

ReadyAndAble

I agree. I really like playing with others on SR, but I am incredibly grateful for the sharp focus of these threads. I feel a lasting gratitude to TU for starting it all. I had no idea about AVRT when I first quit; when I came across these threads, I was surprised how tightly it aligned with the mixture of Buddhist and Stoic thinking that formed the philosophical wing of my DIY recovery program. But it soon became a separate and distinct pillar. The great strength of AVRT for me is its laser focus, and the same goes for these threads.

I really do appreciate your insight and attitude, Dalek. And I absolutely, positively agree that any conditions on abstinence would be pure AV.

Or as I now like to call it, monkey pooh.

ReadyAndAble

Ha, just thought of something: I don't even need AVRT as a condition of my abstinence!

RobbyRobot

That's interesting then, yeah?

It reminds me of the implied paradox of 'back to the future'

Great entertainment, those movies, btw.

freshstart57

I am mulling over this paradox:
AVRT identifies even wanting the desire to be removed as AV, because it suggests self-doubt about abstinence in the presence of desire. Or, again, The desire to be free of cravings is AV. Stating a preference for no-desire over desire is AV. Really?

The Buddha said that all desire is suffering, but not even the most diligent scholar would struggle to teach that the desire to be free of suffering leads to suffering. Distinction is made between skillful and unskillful desire because without this distinction, there is no right effort, no right thought, no right act. The state of no-desire is the ultimate goal, and called Nirvana, the end of suffering. There is no self doubt in this desire at all.

More Zen:
If Ah had my druthers,
Ah druther have my druthers
Than anything else I know.

Ok, Ok, I'll say it. If Ah didn't have mah druthers, what then?