Purplecatlover

I'm on the relapse & nonsense chapter of RR.
I am amazed at how spot on this book is.
Like the parts about deciding to drink after having a bad/ upsetting day,then becoming happy once you decided to drink. By the time you drink you're not mad or upset anymore but you do it anyway.
I did that so many times. It would just keep holding on to any bad feeling, even if it was gone, to get me to drink. Amazing how It could sit in my mind for so long, going unnoticed. Putting ideas, images in my head & making me think they were my own.
I am loving this book way more than I thought I would!

GerandTwine

You've hit on a very important, simple, and inevitable process here that really blows the cover of the AV. It also puts into question the usefulness of helping people avoid bad thoughts, feelings, and experiences IN ORDER TO get them to not drink again.

Thrifty

GT, I'm not sure I get what you mean in your last post. I think it is important though to understand how we (or it) uses bad feelings. Can you elaborate?

GerandTwine

I used the critical sentence from PurpleCatLover's post as the subject. It's described in Figure 4. on p. 183 of Rational Recovery: The New Cure.

The proof that people don't drink to get rid of bad experiences, feelings, or thoughts, is made by looking closely at what takes place between DECIDING to drink and FEELING THE EFFECTS after taking the drink. Anyone can do this by recalling past episodes.

People inevitably discover that, yes, they were feeling rotten when the idea to drink came to mind and was decided upon. But, in reviewing in detail the process of obtaining, opening, pouring, swallowing the alcohol, and waiting for it to kick in - and recalling what thoughts and feelings were happening during those very deliberate (and often time consuming) steps - people also inevitably discover that the original bad feelings and thoughts were gone and they were already feeling quite OK in anticipation of what they were just about to experience, that great buzz from booze. Yet, their blood alcohol content was still zero at that point.

So, it's not the actual buzz from booze that gets rid of the negativity. It's simply a series of thoughts and beliefs that did it. Bringing this awareness into the forefront of consciousness is what blows the cover of the AV. It wants you to believe that the alcohol is required to get rid of the negativity, but you now know it's not. You did it simply through thoughts and beliefs.

As PCL said, "It would just keep holding on to any bad feeling, even if it was gone, to get me to drink." Now that she knows what was going on, it exposes the AV's grand bluff and IT can't do it again.

Now, to go beyond the scope of AVRT, if you want, it's quite possible to figure out some other thoughts and beliefs to get rid of negativity. Naturally, it's ridiculous to imagine the anticipation of drinking would be the ONLY thoughts and beliefs that could do it. Of course, your AV wants you to keep believing that. But to believe that you MUST figure out how to get rid of negative thoughts and experiences in order to not drink is also your AV.

soberlicious

Seriously, it took me so long to figure this out. I learned about this line of thinking from chewing on and disgesting some buddhist principals, but it's here...right here on these threads.

I am constantly amazed at the wisdom here.

soberlicious

LOL meant "principles", not "principals".

kanamit

This is very interesting stuff and yes, Jack Trimpey's diagram in RR is spot on. I did ask earlier in this series of threads how you could get those good feelings without going out and getting a drink. Any suggestions here?

Purplecatlover

I'm not sure if you can "make" those feelings at will. There are moments in time where I'm excited about going on vacation, seeing a loved one, etc
But those are genuine feelings caused by actual experiences.
I could be wrong but when the AV coerced you into drinking & you have that "arousal" feeling before hand(as described in RR) that anticipation is the Beast's excitement & joy of the upcoming intoxication.
You can feel what it feels & separate from it.
The actual feelings WHEN consuming alcohol are artificial. Chemically induced.
I don't think you can replicate "that" high feeling.
To want to do so would be AV trying to convince you that life is no good w/out "that" high feeling.
I can create positive feelings, naturally through exercise, sexual release, watching comedies, or indulging occasionally in death by chocolate cake

kanamit

Sorry I didn't mean replicate the drug-induced high. Rather, moving from the negative to positive feeling when you decide you're going to drink.

Purplecatlover

I'm not sure if that's possible. That "arousal" is the Beast. It's like It is exhilarated & triumphant b/c He won the battle against you/your mind. That's what it felt like to me when I look back in retrospect.
I don't know about you, but I am quite content & exhilarated about life in general now.
Now that the Beast is exposed, I have removed the option of drinking ever again & I have control of my life, freedom, serenity & peace. That is intoxicating in itself. To move freely through life, no chains on my mind & soul is all the arousal I need.
I find myself giddy somedays just because.
The war is over & I won!
From that point on, everyday is a celebration to me

GerandTwine

Words are important here, so it's good this is written down.

The best hope "When you decide you're going to drink", is that you enjoy the deep pleasure we all remember, nothing bad happens, and you come out the other end in as good a shape as possible.

Addicted people who decide to drink/use do not have a Big Plan, and are not using AVRT. I think it is meaningless to focus on "moving from negative to positive feeling when you decide you're going to drink" because all such human feeling is about to be overwhelmed by the tsunami of chemically enhanced stupidity.

Kanamit, your other question on "...how you could get those good feelings without going out and getting a drink" also has nothing to do with AVRT.

I believe there are a finite number of types of feelings people can have, but I also believe there are virtually an infinite number of ways that those feelings can be elicited. To me, one aspect of having a fulfilling life involves working to expand the number of ways I can experience good feelings, and it's become obvious to me only I can direct that expansion. So, you have a good question, but I don't think it makes sense to give it more coverage than this on the AVRT thread.

Kanamit, you posted the AVRT Matrix on this thread about two months ago (post #19).

That simple diagram is the AVRT tool to use to recognize the AV in real time as we get on with life, which may or may not include expanding (or concentrating) the ways we feel humanly good.

AVRT will plow the AV off any road you want to take anytime to anywhere.

kanamit

Good point. When you put it like that, it seems like a stupid question. I just found it interesting that this big inversion of feeling came from within.

Terminally Unique

It's certainly not like your typical recovery book from Hazelden publishing. I keep telling some people who have bought it to actually read it, but it's like talking to a brick wall. Then there are those who read it by picking sections at random, or while watching TV, during commercials, etc. I've actually gotten messages from some people asking if they have an audiobook available. I suppose that's why RR can sell those DVD sets.

It's certainly good to see some interesting discussion going on.

Purplecatlover

TU, these threads are great but you need to know the subject matter(read the book) to discuss it properly. I apologize for being thick headed & dragging my feet. It has taken me awhile to read b/c I only had 20 uninterrupted mins/night to devote to it.
Now that I am done, all I can say is WOW! It IS SO worth the time to read it. It made more sense than anything else I've read on addiction.

So you posted a question awhile back, that I was not adequately able to answer at that time.
Can you forget your Big Plan?
No. It would be like forgetting marriage vows.
It is an infinite decision not to be entered into lightly.

Terminally Unique

You are correct there. My intent when starting this thread was never to replace the book, but rather, to create an archive that would make it easier for people to grasp the concepts. In other words, to help people get up to speed faster than they might otherwise. Sometimes we can miss the obvious — I know I certainly did.

For someone just starting, I would recommend reading the book, reading through this thread from the beginning, posting any further questions they may have, and then reading the book a second time. Granted, knowledge without intent isn't going to get the job done, but if they actually want to quit, this will place them on very solid footing.

Peta

Public holiday here today

Anzac day which is to commemorate the New Zealand and Australian soliders who have fallen fighting (world wars, Vietnam etc).

Day of celebration and for many, bbqs and drinking!

The weather is fine and I've noticed a lot of AV activity today. Lots of suggestions RE buying a bottle of wine and drinking this afternoon.

You've earned it, you've packed up your whole apartment (husband and i are shifting) He would like you to drink with him tonight (my husband)

I recognised this for what it is - I'm not sick or deranged and I dont have a disease, in fact I'm quite well.

The fact the AV is so strong today is not good or bad and just illustrates that i'm healthy and well and enjoying life and my Beast wants the pure PLEASURE that alcohol that brings.

But I dont drink.

Rereading the book again and up to the bit about the Beast that comes back. How the Beast will never accept that I'm not going to drink.

It sure is squirming today

soberlicious

oh crap...I guess I should actually read the book in it's entirety lol

Having encountered AVRT after I quit, it resonated with me because I could see that a huge number of people use this paradigm to quit, not just a quiet few.

Indeed you are quite well.

Peta

Thanks Soberlicious

I also love how Jack talks about 'Get a life rather than just being a body'

I'm choosing what I want in my life and the person I want to be by being abstinent

Redjolt

Good evening, can anyone tell me if Rational Recover book is available in electronic form. I looked on the iTunes app store, but don't see it. Thanks.

Terminally Unique

Would be nice, but no e-book as of yet.