ReadyAndAble

Leave it to the Beast to latch onto an absurd statement. You have to drink so someone else doesn't drink alone? Is that person five years old? Or perhaps their relationship with alcohol is unhealthy; maybe they even have a beast of their own? The beast does not like it when others quit. It sets a very bad example....

In any event, great job, Peta. The big plan trumps everything, including dinner invitations that will come, go, and be forgotten in a week's time.

Dalek

This is incorrect, GeramdTwine. In AVRT, the Big Plan is not about quitting one substance at a time, but rather about quitting all hedonic substances at one time. Trimpey makes this clear in his AVRT Course, the RR forums, and in "The Art of AVRT", but even in "The New Cure", drink and use are synonymous. There is no "marijuana maintenance" quit drinking program in AVRT, for example. Done is done, and that means no alcohol or any other henonic, non-prescribed drugs.

There is no quitting one-drug-at-a-time with AVRT. Trimpey apparently makes an exception for caffeine and nicotine, categorizing them as "minor-league", but IMO, the latter is only because he himself kept on smoking after quitting alcohol and other drugs. Personally, I believe it is the very same Beast driving things, regardless of the substance, and I suspect that even Trimpey knows this, since RR now provides specific quit-smoking materials.

Yes, this does necessarily mean that I personally consider all those chain-smoking RGM members not-quite-sober.

ReadyAndAble

Back away from my coffee, Dalek.

I don't even want you looking at it...

Dalek

This is part of the cluster **** I inadvertently contributed to, but Trimpey was assuming that one has made a Big Plan when he made that statement, and he made this very clear at the onset of the post you are quoting. He states twice, to my knowledge, in The ART of AVRT, that without a Big Plan, there is no AVRT. He also states as much on the RR web site. Even in the "New Cure" book, there is this:

I'm interested in such a discussion as you propose, but rest assured I will chime in. I may have been ambiguous, but I will rectify that if need be.

harry101

Surely there's nothing wrong, in principle, with taking hedonic substances. A substance only becomes a problem to a person when they continue to take it against their better judgement.

Why should a smoker who wants to quit by using AVRT, also have to quit booze if they're a moderate drinker and it causes them no problems?

Doesn't Trimpey say that taking pleasure-inducing drugs is an individual liberty? If the effect of taking a particular drug is benign a person will more than likely carry on taking it. It's probably a good idea for many to make a clean break and quit all hedonic substances but I don't think it's absolutely necessary in all cases.

Dalek

There's nothing worst than a reformed smoker, R&A. Every smoker knows this. I know they were the biggest pain in the neck when I was smoking. I've never seen reformed coffee drinkers be anywhere near as annoying.

To Trimpey's credit, even back when he didn't want RR to focus specifically on smoking, he did say that AVRT would work the same way, and just as well, for smoking.

Dalek

No, there's nothing necessarily wrong, in principle, with getting high, but Trimpey has made it abundantly clear that AVRT is an across-the-board quit-getting-high approach. I remember several people on the RR forums looking for a loophole to this, and Trimpey basically told them that they can do whatever they want, but that it ain't AVRT.

That's on them, but the problem with getting drunk or high, even if it is not with your primary DOC, is that once under the influence, your judgement is impaired, and you will be more susceptible to returning to your DOC as soon as the AV chimes in and suggests getting the good stuff. This is why people often go back to their DOC when they are under the influence of some other drug. If someone really is a moderate drinker, though, then presumably, they won't be getting drunk, and they won't have that problem.

Nicotine and caffeine don't really affect your judgement this way, so that may also be why Jack refers to them as 'minor league', and why he makes an exception for them with regard to the across-the-board thing.

Dalek

To answer your question regarding this specific scenario, I don't personally believe that someone who quits smoking but has no problems with drinking needs to also quit drinking. I don't have a reference, but I'm fairly certain that RR recommends making separate Big Plans for nicotine and caffeine. That is, making a Big Plan for drinking/using, and separate ones for nicotine and caffeine (the 'minor league' drugs). The separate chapter on smoking in The Art of AVRT appears to me to imply this, since it makes no mention of quitting other drugs along with smoking, but if someone has a definitive reference, feel free to post it.

Dalek

That shift is not meant to downplay what happened, but it is certainly meant to snap someone out of the passive, detached onlooker role, and to put them back in the driver's seat. Some people, often in positions of authority, will actually tell you the same thing that your Addictive Voice is probably saying: "If you could have quit, you would have quit, but you didn't quit, which proves that you can't quit."

I once fell for this circular logic myself, which can be very discouraging, and in my case, deadly. For a while, I just gave up on the idea of ever being able to quit, and resigned myself to dying drunk, impaled on the horns of the Beast. It's complete nonsense, though, nothing more than pristine Addictive Voice, because the only thing drinking or using again "proves" is that you didn't quit, not that you can't quit.

Your Beast has a Big Plan for you, Peta, which is that you will definitely drink again. You probably know by now that the Beast's agenda will never change, so you need to be very clear on your agenda, and to never confuse one with the other.

Obladi

Good day, all.

I think too much.
Or maybe "it" thinks too much; after having read through Part I of this long and very interesting conversation, it seems that perhaps "it" feels and I am allowing "it" to feed my every thought.

Anyhow, I'm a novice at this and have been for quite some time. Tried to take shortcuts and that didn't work. Looked for the book yesterday in an actual bookstore (!) and will check another today. If I don't find it, will order online tonight.

Was starting to write you a book of my own and then thought better of it.
Just wanted to introduce myself and say thanks for being here.

ReadyAndAble

Why think better of it? That's one of the points of SR. You don't have to share any more than you want... and you never have to share any less, either.

Right back at ya.

freshstart57

Hi, Obladi. Glad to see you here. While you are digesting this monster of a thread, believe 100% in your own ability to get and stay sober. Next, tune your hearing to notice any doubt in your ability and assign it to you know what. Of course it isn't you. You don't drink any more, and you are not changing your mind.

Obladi

Because I have questions, but they come with explanations as to where they come from and I haven't digested the thread nor read the book and so it seems a little... premature? presumptuous? something... to jump right in.

But now you got me typing, so I do have one question. I'm thinking that my AV seems to listen to those of others. Does that make sense? And if so, is it wise or not so wise to hang out on SR at all? (Aside from perhaps reading this voluminous thread from beginning to end.)

Hi yourself, fresh. I have no doubt in my own ability to get and stay sober. And I am very in tune to that feeling right this moment that translates to *wth, you made it through Friday and Saturday, let's relax now!* Makes me very anxioius, that b****

I need to develop skills to anticipate and react to her calmly. Right now, it's like I'm pretending to be the alpha dog facing down a mastiff the same size as I am and she kinda scares me, really, but I'm trying not to let on. Fake it til you make it?

I guess that was two questions...

MrsKing

Obladi, I'm definitely nowhere near as informed as the guys on this thread, but I just thought I'd pop in to say that, at first, I was quite frightened by my AV - I sort of wished I didn't know anything about this strange AVRT thing because knowing about the AV sort of heightened it, in a way. I didn't really know what to do/think/say back. In the end I just thought "oh, I know what you are. I'm not listening" and basically, ignored it. Every time the thoughts came into my mind, I listened but did not react. Which I suppose is the whole point - just recognising the voice, which I did. Over time (and it was a short period of time, actually) the voice just got quieter and quieter until it barely spoke to me at all. I don't know HOW that happened or WHY it happened, but it works - all you really have to do is recognise that voice over a period of time and it gets bored of pestering you.

Also, when I first started coming to SR I had terrible difficulties with it, too... I found that it made me feel worse but I'm so glad I continued to come, though, because now I can't get enough of it! I think it was a hurdle because it made me analyse my behaviour when I drank, and I related to so much of what people were saying that it scared me, I guess. Now I'm totally at home here and my AV very rarely chatters whilst I'm on here now. It never really chatters at all any more!

ReadyAndAble

All available evidence points to the contrary, Mrs. King.

I will look forward to others chiming in on this, Obladi. Certainly, your AV will latch onto anything it can, and spin it in a way that supports future drinking. One of the tenets of AVRT is that it's possible—I suppose some might even argue it's preferable—to recover without any peer support whatsover. Excellent topic, even if a bit ironic given the venue.

Me, I feel the insights and support I received on SR were extremely helpful in the beginning. Now I come here more for the intellectual engagement, and because I like to cheer people on. Watching folks succeed is just plain fun. And I find some of the people here to be inspirational in ways that go well beyond recovery.

I guess I'm a soft touch in that regard. However, I am becoming a merciless hardass when it comes to my AV. If it wants to take a run at me while I'm on SR, fine. Bring. It. I'll send the beast scurrying back to its cage in the time it takes 2granddaughters to say "AA."

freshstart57

That is one scary proposition for sure, but there are other ways of looking at this. I start off by making sure that I am alive, and asking 'Am I breathing? How do I know?' I can feel the air coming in, cool and fresh, and leaving again feeling warm as it passes. My diaphragm moves up and down with each inhale and exhale. Then I take a look at this mastiff, bring it over into the light and look at it very carefully. I walk all the way around it, and stop to stare at its butt (makes it as nervous as heck, it gets all self-conscious and worries that there is some paper stuck there or something).

The more I look at it, the smaller it gets until it turns into this yappy little JR terrier that jumps when I say BOO, and then runs away and hides. Now that breathing gets deeper and more regular and I watch that miserable mutt disappear, leaving me in calm control once again.

That MrsKing is good, very good.

Ok, that's just funny right there.

Obladi

MrsKing, thank you. You give me hope. See, I like being helpful to other people and I really think am sometimes, but I think that at times I am too empathetic and it impacts my own internal workings. Even better is hoping that recognizing the AV, in and of itself, can be so helpful. I can do that (at least when she's real rambunctious, maybe not so much when she's sneaky, not sure).

ReadyandAble, I'm interested to hear what other people think as well. I also get a kick out of seeing people succeed, but watching people trip seems to engage this troublesome "me too" reaction. Very troublesome.

fresh, I've thought about this quite a lot since I posted it (of course!), and I'm not sure if that mastiff is the AV or if it's what I fear the AV is guarding. And I know AVRT makes no claims to do anything to help with what you find once you've tamed the beast. Sooooo. Perhaps that's AV telling me I can't handle it, but what if she's right?

Anyhow, I got the book yesterday. Score one for acting rather than simply having an "intention." Started reading, fell asleep, will read more this evening.

ReadyAndAble

I think you heard that wrong. I think your addiction actually said "you too". It just sounds like "me too"...

Ha, see that? You said:

And she added:

Remember, all self-doubt is, by definition, AV. That includes any fears that once you break free of this, you'll find a bigger, badder problem waiting for you on the other side of recovery. Whatever that mastiff represents, it's best handled with a clear mind and a positive attitude, right?

You're gonna tame that little beastie in no time. Pretty soon you'll be playing mind games on it, walking around it, staring at its butt (that's just plain mean, FS... lol).

Keep thinking about it, Obladi, keep reading and stay aware. Turn your confidence all the way up. You can do this. Recognize any thoughts to the contrary for what they are...

Obladi

Wow, I'd best be putting my nose in that book because this all seems like a riddle to me. Seriously.

Thank you very much, ReadyandAble.

I may need to spend some time reading and squinting to understand what you are trying to help me to see, but I will do my best. I saw it for a brief moment, but it's like those pictures where you need to let your mind change perspective to see the other view. You know, like the crone that's also a vase or vice versa...

Obladi

"That's AV telling me 'You can't handle it and you know I'm right.'"

?