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Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion Part 6

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Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion Part 6

Old 10-17-2016, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by WhatBeast View Post
I continue to hold the position that battle and alienation with the beast is unhealthy. I suggest we look more toward integration, self-esteem, and wholeness with the idea that ultimately the beast is a valued servant. Until we can do that we will be at war with ourselves. Right brains, feelers and healers, can I get some help up in here?
I know this is an old post, but I have trouble with the discussion that went on around this. I take the BEAST to be a malfunction in the midbrain activities. As in the desire for alcohol is a mistaken survival drive. Why would anyone want to intergrate a malfunction?
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Old 10-17-2016, 10:11 AM
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Plus, the midbrain isn't the "thinking" part of you, it's just urges, drives and the maintance of bodily vital functions. It would be like saying "I'm going to intergrate my breathing, or my heartrate" huh?
The BEAST is just there, a drive for a substance that hijacks the reward centres, brings on intensely pleasurable feelings and is incrediably poisonous to the body.
I would not think it was something to be loved or hated about yourself, it's just there, performing a misguided function, mechanically so to speak.
The things you do under the influence might lead you to hate yourself, or doing it when you know, with the thinking part of you, that you don't want to. But I understood the BEAST itself, to be an unconsious drive for pleasure, it doesn't have a personality for you to like or dislike?
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Old 10-17-2016, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by sainos View Post
I take the BEAST to be a malfunction in the midbrain activities. As in the desire for alcohol is a mistaken survival drive. Why would anyone want to integrate a malfunction?
The idea of integrating with the Beast is just new age "can't we all just get along" silliness, coupled with a misunderstanding of what the Beast of Rational Recovery is, or what AVRT is. The Beast is not the entire mid-brain, which has legitimate functions necessary for our survival.

If a car is coming at you at high speed, for example, the mid-brain will probably save your life by urging you to jump out of the way quickly. The Beast is only that new, rogue survival drive pointing south towards death, instead of north towards life.

In any case, the mid-brain really is distinct from the neo-cortex, and in civilized society, must usually be inhibited. The mid-brain routinely suggests doing things that we had better not do, unless we want to go back to living in a lawless, amoral jungle.

Originally Posted by sainos View Post
I understood the BEAST itself, to be an unconsious drive for pleasure, it doesn't have a personality for you to like or dislike?
The Beast gives rise to a new persona -- a rogue, amoral style of thinking that promotes, protects, and perpetuates the addiction. This, of course, is what we call the Addictive Voice, and one very vital function of the Addictive Voice is to conceal its own nature and identity. This is why, while addicted, the AV appears to be you.

The Big Plan forces a breakdown of this illusion. The Beast will try and defend itself against the Big Plan, but in doing so, it exposes itself. Against the backdrop of the BP, in which you return to being an abstainer from hedonic drugs, as you once were, the AV stands out for recognition as "not you", but rather, as the bark of the Beast.
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Old 10-17-2016, 12:33 PM
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Thank you Algorithm, thats basically what I thought it was, only you explained it much better.
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Old 10-19-2016, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Algorithm View Post
If a car is coming at you at high speed, for example, the mid-brain will probably save your life by urging you to jump out of the way quickly. The Beast is only that new, rogue survival drive pointing south towards death, instead of north towards life.
I was thinking about this, this morning, when I was watching a programme on the telly about a man, who had been stabbed and left in a burning house. His only way out was through a wall of flames. And he did it, he jumped through them, to escape, to live. A legitamite survival drive doing it's job, urging him through the flames, to live, instead of the normal avoidence of flames or die.
So, the midbrain commands the survival drives. The drive to drink/drug is a "rogue" drive that, in that the brain has produced this drive towards drink/drugs because they have hi-jacked the reward centres that are usually only triggered by legitamite survival drives.

When I was thinking about it this morning, once I had started drinking, I really think I would have chanced jumping through a wall of fire, if that was the only way I could get to a bottle of vodka, if it was the only bottle of vodka left I could get to, and I thought there was a chance of getting through without injury!
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Old 10-19-2016, 03:37 AM
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To clarify what I mean by
"A legitamite survival drive doing it's job, urging him through the flames, to live, instead of the normal avoidence of flames or die."
The one survival drive, "jump through the flames"...over rode the normal fear of running through fire, because it was what he needed at THAT time to survive.
So knowing all the consequences of your drinking, or what might happen in the future is not going to stop the urges to do it. The Beast (the urges) are timeless, exist in the NOW.
As alcohol sparks off the "rewards" in the brain centres usually afforded to doing things that your survival depends upon, to your Beast, when it wants alcohol, it will always want it NOW and it will override other needs, that are not so immediately pressing (to IT)
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Old 10-22-2016, 01:40 PM
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Very interesting thread. I'm on my second reading of the book, and I think it might be my best shot at staying sober.

I just need some clarification about the Big Plan.

Obviously, to just say: "I will never drink again" is not enough to achieve the task. Is the purpose of making a BP then, a tactic to reveal the split between the real "I", and the Beast?

Any thoughts much appreciated
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Old 10-22-2016, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack16 View Post
Very interesting thread. I'm on my second reading of the book, and I think it might be my best shot at staying sober.
The part above, underlined in red, is your Addictive Voice (AV). Remember the definition of the addictive voice:

Addictive Voice = Any thinking, imagery, or feeling that supports, or even suggests, your future use of alcohol or drugs.

"I think it might be my best shot at staying sober" obviously suggests more drinking may be in the cards, so it qualifies as AV, by definition. That is the Beast talking in your mind. You will be surprised at how much of your own thinking is actually AV.

Originally Posted by Jack16 View Post
I just need some clarification about the Big Plan.

Obviously, to just say: "I will never drink again" is not enough to achieve the task.
The part underlined in red is also your Addictive Voice, suggesting failure and more drinking. Are you seeing a pattern here? Any self-doubt about lifetime abstinence obviously supports more drinking, so it is therefore AV, by definition.

With AVRT, we set our confidence level for lifetime abstinence arbitrarily at 100%, and recognize all self-doubt as the AV -- as the Beast speaking in our mind's eye.

The Big Plan is a transcending personal commitment to unconditional, permanent abstinence. It is enough on its own, but AVRT makes the task much easier and/or less unpleasant.

Originally Posted by Jack16 View Post
Is the purpose of making a BP then, a tactic to reveal the split between the real "I", and the Beast?
The purpose of the Big Plan is to definitively end the constant inner debate about future drinking, the "to drink or not to drink, should I or shouldn't I?" back and forth discussions in our mind.

We can alternatively think of the BP as choosing once to remove the option of ever choosing to drink or not to drink. We remove the choice from the table. No more choosing not to drink.

One consequence of the Big Plan is that the Beast will not be happy at all, and it will probably go on the attack. It will be very scared of your BP, and in haste, will probably blow its cover when it does attack, though.

Before the BP, you may think 'I want a drink', but after the BP, you may hear 'you need a drink' or 'we need a drink', as if the Beast is talking to you or for both of you. This is called the I/It split in AVRT.

An alternative way to think of the Addictive Voice is as anything which contradicts your Big Plan. With a Big Plan in place, the AV will stand out clearly as the Beast talking, making it easy to recognize.

Originally Posted by Jack16 View Post
Any thoughts much appreciated
Remember that your Beast can read the book along with you, so it will be looking over your shoulder -- for loopholes. It may also try and tell you that there is some deep stuff, some deep secret that you haven't figured out yet about AVRT, and that until you do, you won't succeed.

I would encourage you to read the book alone, in silence, so that you can hear your own AV, and to read this thread from the very beginning afterwards. Many common questions have been answered before, and there are many "tips" throughout as well.
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Old 10-22-2016, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Algorithm View Post
I would encourage you to read the book alone, in silence, so that you can hear your own AV, and to read this thread from the very beginning afterwards. Many common questions have been answered before, and there are many "tips" throughout as well.
Thank you very much for your reply. That has clarified things a lot, well completely, actually. I will certainly re-read the threads from the 1st one.

You honestly could not have explained it better. Thank you
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Old 10-23-2016, 03:47 AM
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Was thinking more about the notion of the Big Plan since my previous post and your reply, Algorithm.

I had an insight: if I made a 'plan' to take my shoes off, of course, my confidence level in my ability to carry that out would be 100%. It would be completely within my control to do it.

What I realised last night was that a plan to never drink again is no different, no different whatsoever. I can choose not to physically put alcohol into my body (picking up a glass, bringing it to my lips, etc), and that's that.

The only difference between the two scenarios is that there is no AV attached to the plan to take my shoes off. But, apart from that both actions are equally within my power.

It feels like a significant penny dropping moment. I hope I have managed to articulate it.

Thanks again for your reply, Algorithm - very helpful.
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Old 10-23-2016, 05:49 AM
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Bravo, Jack.
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Old 10-23-2016, 06:32 AM
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"See a penny pick it up.."
The price of deserved badassery , congratulations !!
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Old 10-23-2016, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by WhatBeast
Right brains, feelers and healers, can I get some help up in here?
This quote is from an old post but I just want to respond to it because I am a right brainer, a feeler. I'm a very creative person who prefers to make decisions based on intuition. So the whole living for the moment and becoming one with myself idea is very appealing, however for the purposes of functional living, I have naturally identified thoughts that do not fit my morality and then not acted on them by dismissing them. For example, I've had moments of being so angry I felt I could hit someone, but in identifying that action as not in keeping with how want to live, I refrain. An interesting idea from Buddhist teachings about emotions and thoughts are that they come and they go, but we can observe them, sit with them, and let them pass without acting on them in any way. So people have been doing this form of separating for a very long time. It is a way to slow down the chain of immediately acting on thoughts, and to identify what drives are there, but not in keeping with how you want to live. I cannot make them *not be there*, but I do not have to act on them either.

Originally Posted by Jack16
I had an insight: if I made a 'plan' to take my shoes off, of course, my confidence level in my ability to carry that out would be 100%. It would be completely within my control to do it.
Yes, so true! Not only is it completely within your control, you do not worry for untold hours "Maybe I won't be able to take off my shoes. Maybe I will be stuck in these shoes forever. Maybe there are outside forces that will be trying to keep these shoes glued to my feet, despite my attempts to take them off."
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Old 10-23-2016, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Jack16 View Post
The only difference between the two scenarios is that there is no AV attached to the plan to take my shoes off. But, apart from that both actions are equally within my power.
That's precisely it. Your Beast wants what it wants, and your AV is the only thing standing in the way of quitting your addiction for good. This is why we consider the AV the sole cause of our addiction.

This was mentioned earlier in this long-running thread, but it bears repeating.

Originally Posted by Jack Trimpey
AVRT Axiom:
The function of the Addictive Voice is to grossly exaggerate the difficulty and suffering that discontinuing your vice will cause.

Corollary:
Ending your addiction is precisely as difficult as you decide it will be, and will take exactly as long as you permit.
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Old 10-23-2016, 12:19 PM
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well done, Jack! That's a powerful analogy!
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Old 11-18-2016, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Jack16 View Post
Was thinking more about the notion of the Big Plan since my previous post and your reply, Algorithm.

I had an insight: if I made a 'plan' to take my shoes off, of course, my confidence level in my ability to carry that out would be 100%. It would be completely within my control to do it.

What I realised last night was that a plan to never drink again is no different, no different whatsoever. I can choose not to physically put alcohol into my body (picking up a glass, bringing it to my lips, etc), and that's that.

The only difference between the two scenarios is that there is no AV attached to the plan to take my shoes off. But, apart from that both actions are equally within my power.

It feels like a significant penny dropping moment. I hope I have managed to articulate it.

Thanks again for your reply, Algorithm - very helpful.
Hi Jack,

Your recent concerns about using AVRT on another thread leads me to pick up the conversation on this thread.

By stating that you are now in your second period of using AVRT, I am going to assume that you did not make a Big Plan during your first practice of AVRT, and that you had some more to drink during the interim period. Please correct me if I am wrong.

You recently mentioned on the other thread that you started to engage in a huge series of time-consuming, complex, voluntary motor actions that would result in your swallowing more alcohol, but before you did the swallowing, you changed your mind a second time back to the don’t drink position and interrupted those complex motor activities. When, after changing your mind the first time, during that period of time in which you decided to drink some more, did the idea of the Big Plan come up? Is that what got you to interrupt your actions and decide don’t drink now?

Let me go back to what is in this thread. I find a huge difference between even the very simple ACTION of taking off my shoes and the very simple INACTION of not pouring alcohol into my mouth.

To me, this difference is the essential beauty of the Big Plan. Succeeding at the Big Plan requires DOING absolutely NOTHING. It requires ONLY one very specific thought. “Oh, there IT is, but, I will never drink again.” The only similarity with removing my shoes is that they both take about five seconds.

The beauty of the Big Plan is that it is only BIG regarding ONE aspect, it ends an addiction for the rest of all time, in other words it will be in effect for eternity, an infinite period that will never end. Nothing can be bigger than that. And, of course, it made a BIG positive difference in my life.

Further beauties of the Big Plan are that it is very, very small in many other aspects.

1 - It takes only about five seconds to pledge The Big Plan, “I will never drink again.”

2 - It is about an extremely tiny, tiny behavior within all the trillions of things I can do as a human being. It is ONLY about swallowing ethanol, the same stuff they add to gasoline. (or some other substance or specific behavior). A behavior that takes place three inches from my eyes, and one inch from my nose, and engulfs my tongue.

3 - It can be known only to one human being, the person who made it; and it MUST be known to that person because it is impossible for an adult human being to lie to him/herself. Try telling yourself a lie and see if it fools you.

4 - It costs exactly zero cents to accomplish, and zero cents to ‘maintain’ the Big Plan.

5 - The waiting period before being able to make such a plan is zero seconds.

6 - It requires that I expend about one tenth of a calorie while at rest for the five seconds it takes to make the Big Plan, and less than that for each time I recall that I made it.

7 - It appears to have zero interest to those serving addicted people with complex treatment to get them to not drink any more. (this last one is not a beauty of the Big Plan, but a recognition of the institutionalized Addictive Voice within our society.)

GT
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Old 11-18-2016, 01:08 AM
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Hi GerandTwine, thanks for taking the time to reply.

Yes, I got swept along reading the book, but if I think back I didn't actually make a BP. (I did make a BP when I first came across AVRT, maybe two years ago, but it did not hold)


Yes, as you suggest, basically, the BP cut through the noise of the AV very briefly, and I felt angry with the Beast and mentally swore at it. I think that was what snapped me out of it.

I see the simplicity of the technique, yet at the same time, those Beast attacks seem at times to swamp me so thoroughly that all separation between me and IT is lost. It feels like being 'possessed', although of course that is only in hindsight.

I can see now that it's all about pattern interruption. It's like in Zen meditation. The zen master would walk around the room with a big stick, and whenever they sensed a meditator was drifting off (being swamped by involuntary thoughts), they would whack them with the stick. It seems that is what AVRT is - it's a way of snapping out of those thoughts before they gain a stranglehold, right?



Thanks again
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Old 11-18-2016, 03:39 AM
  # 178 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Jack16 View Post
Hi GerandTwine, thanks for taking the time to reply.

Yes, I got swept along reading the book, but if I think back I didn't actually make a BP.
I believe you have every capacity to make a Big Plan for alcohol right now. Making a Big Plan is a very important and necessary logical consequence of using AVRT to end an addiction.

Originally Posted by Jack16 View Post
(I did make a BP when I first came across AVRT, maybe two years ago, but it did not hold)
There's a good section in the book "RR: The New Cure" about how to get out of your Big Plan, but Trimpey ends up discovering that he cannot find a way to get out of his Big Plan and neither can I. So, I'm very curious to hear how you got out of your Big Plan two years ago. What was going on in those minutes just before you got the booze and drank some more? What were your thoughts and feelings, and what were you actually doing? Did the idea of the Big Plan come up as you went to get the alcohol?

Originally Posted by Jack16 View Post
Yes, as you suggest, basically, the BP cut through the noise of the AV very briefly, and I felt angry with the Beast and mentally swore at it. I think that was what snapped me out of it.

I see the simplicity of the technique, yet at the same time, those Beast attacks seem at times to swamp me so thoroughly that all separation between me and IT is lost. It feels like being 'possessed', although of course that is only in hindsight.

I can see now that it's all about pattern interruption. It's like in Zen meditation. The zen master would walk around the room with a big stick, and whenever they sensed a meditator was drifting off (being swamped by involuntary thoughts), they would whack them with the stick. It seems that is what AVRT is - it's a way of snapping out of those thoughts before they gain a stranglehold, right?



Thanks again
In AVRT there is no need to "snap out of those thoughts" because thoughts are totally harmless. Shifting is an exercise in AVRT wherein a person actually practices "snapping" in and out of "those thoughts" intentionally.

Alcohol is not necessary like oxygen, so it is very easy to quickly understand that I am not suffocating from a "stranglehold" of a sense of urgency to drink some more. My Beast, though, will try to convince me that not drinking is like not breathing - pure balderdash.

GT
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Old 11-19-2016, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
I believe you have every capacity to make a Big Plan for alcohol right now. Making a Big Plan is a very important and necessary logical consequence of using AVRT to end an addiction.



There's a good section in the book "RR: The New Cure" about how to get out of your Big Plan, but Trimpey ends up discovering that he cannot find a way to get out of his Big Plan and neither can I. So, I'm very curious to hear how you got out of your Big Plan two years ago. What was going on in those minutes just before you got the booze and drank some more? What were your thoughts and feelings, and what were you actually doing? Did the idea of the Big Plan come up as you went to get the alcohol?

GT
Hey,

My first attempt with AVRT was a while back so I cannot remember what happened totally clearly, but - basically, while I had made a BP, and meant it, my grasp on the actual AVRT techniques was not fully there, I think.

So when the AV piped up, I suppose I recognised it at first, then kind of allowed it to take over. I reminded myself of my BP, then gave in to the AV saying: "Oh come on, you know this isn't really gonna work, you know there isn't really any division between 'you' and 'it', etc. I let it take over, I didn't use any AVRT, and that was that.

Basically, it was exactly like Trimpey says in the book.

I've been re-reading the book very carefully, and working through the wealth of info in Sec Recovery, and it is clicking with me constantly.
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Old 11-19-2016, 06:57 AM
  # 180 (permalink)  
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As Algorithm mentioned earlier , the AV is reading too, even more carefully identifying loopholes and trying to either convince that the idea as a whole is untenable, or to sow seeds of doubt.
Adopting a BP pulls the string taunt and closes all loopholes. Making a BP happens even in the presence of AV. It seems counterintuitive, but if the AV had no influence what would be the need or utility of a BP,yeah? Any doubt that a BP can 'work' is by definition AV. I don't think that the presence (feeling) the AV is something that can be ignored or that it is ' supposed' to be nonexistent when making a Big Plan to ensure it 'sticking' , but I do understand that separation from It is possible. For me that was the leap of faith I needed to take, excepting the idea that I could make a BP in spite of the presence of doubt, and as counterintuitive as it 'feels' , I don't see how it occurs otherwise.
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