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Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion Part 6

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Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion Part 6

Old 03-11-2015, 09:43 AM
  # 61 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by JeffreyAK View Post
Symptom of what, character defects or something?
When someone persists in drinking when they know that it makes them a menace to everyone they encounter; when it diverts family resources; when it leads to violence and incapacitation; when it robs spouses of companionship and employers of a fair deal:

It is immoral, a character defect, the ultimate selfish self indulgence.

But it can be fixed instantly with permanent abstinence.

Ascribing chronic drunkeness to illness rationalizes the act and removes the responsibility for the destructive behavior from the drunk, which is precisely where it belongs.
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Old 03-11-2015, 12:14 PM
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I do not believe enjoying a drink or drinks every now and then is inherently immoral. But I do feel that it is immoral to continue drinking when one knows that consuming alcohol will with almost 100% certainty cause harm to oneself and others.

Knowing one has a problem with alcohol and then not working to address the problem in some way is IMO profoundly immoral.
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Old 03-11-2015, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Greenwood618 View Post
When someone persists in drinking when they know that it makes them a menace to everyone they encounter; when it diverts family resources; when it leads to violence and incapacitation; when it robs spouses of companionship and employers of a fair deal:

It is immoral, a character defect, the ultimate selfish self indulgence.

But it can be fixed instantly with permanent abstinence.

Ascribing chronic drunkeness to illness rationalizes the act and removes the responsibility for the destructive behavior from the drunk, which is precisely where it belongs.
All in your opinion of course. Moral arguments smell like 12-step shaming, and if I could have figured out how to stop the madness before causing (fortunately reversible) harm to friends and family, I would have. You suggesting I'm immoral just firms up my increasing belief that there is little significant difference between RR and AA - both seem populated by a great many zealots who don't really understand the nature of addiction.
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Old 03-11-2015, 01:11 PM
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Did you obtain money for your drinks? Did you use an Atm or a debit card? Did you drive to a store or bar? Did you order from a bartender? Did you park your car outside the store and walk in to the place, you know, the alcohol selling place?

All of these are deliberate acts, conscious behaviors taken before the first drink.

However, without a working knowledge of the structural model of addiction, some people performing these immoral acts apparently believe they are powerless victims, perhaps in a bid to innoculate themselves from blame for the mayhem they cause.
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Old 03-11-2015, 01:25 PM
  # 65 (permalink)  
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Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion

Please keep the topic off of AA.
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Old 03-11-2015, 01:30 PM
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For me, I MADE drinking into a question of personal morality. I can't, won't and don't speak to the morality of others' alcohol consumption. On the other hand, I chose to close the door forever on my drinking by coming to consider it as an immoral act. For me. I don't think that it had anything to do with my decision to quit drinking, but it has sure made the question of ever drinking again a very simple one to answer for me.
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Old 03-11-2015, 01:30 PM
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Old 03-11-2015, 05:27 PM
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The way I drank in the end was against my moral code is all I was saying. AVRT gave me the bullets to shoot that beast for good. I actually enjoyed a lot of my drinking but not having to drink to feel normal which eventually made me very sick. Glad I found SR and AVRT when I came here to journal my taper.
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Old 03-11-2015, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Greenwood618 View Post
When someone persists in drinking when they know that it makes them a menace to everyone they encounter; when it diverts family resources; when it leads to violence and incapacitation; when it robs spouses of companionship and employers of a fair deal:
It took me a long time before I knew bad things were going to happen every time I drank. Longer than it should have. Longer than I wish it would have. I was in the self-deluded world many alcoholics find themselves in - next time will be different. I wasn't immoral during this period of time. I was a dumbass.
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Old 03-12-2015, 05:28 AM
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Professing dumbassery throws me into the realm of morality , now
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Old 03-12-2015, 06:17 AM
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I tend to agree.

Now that I know I was a dumbass with respect to my recognition of the problems my drinking was causing; now that I know unintended consequences are going to happen if I drink; I am comfortable with it being labeled a moral choice. I am comfortable with the loose definition of immoral being understanding right from wrong and knowingly choosing wrong.
However...

My observations of posts on this forum lead me to believe I am more comfortable with labels than most of the posters here. Many frequent contributors to the Secular Connections forum rankle at the labels of being an alcoholic, being addicted, in recovery, etc.

It doesn't strike me as unusual that some people would rankle at the notion of being labeled immoral for drinking. Not everyone appreciates a good labeling.
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Old 03-12-2015, 06:31 AM
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Labels are only as good as the glue the holds them on, and even then, if you don't like 'em scrape'em off .
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Old 03-12-2015, 06:40 AM
  # 73 (permalink)  
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I didn't understand what was happening to me. It wasn't until l saw my hands shaking one morning and my only thought was to finish off that bottle that I knew. It was not real until then.
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Old 03-14-2015, 01:03 AM
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My issue with the term 'alcoholic' is that it implies you might drink again.

If you're never going to drink again, how can you be an alcoholic?

I would say that calling yourself an alcoholic despite the fact you never consume alcohol is the AV in it's purest form, the Beast doesn't want You to lose Your identity as a 'drinker'

---

There was a fascinating post in newcomers earlier where someone claimed that they had started drinking again as an 'experiment', I find it kind of scary hearing the AV in other peoples words sometimes.
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Old 03-14-2015, 05:36 AM
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Thankfully martyrdom is self imposed, you can always opt-out and get out your label scraper.
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Old 03-14-2015, 07:07 AM
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I would not identify myself as an alcoholic anymore. At first it was helpful because I needed to get what was going on and that is a great way to communicate it. Now it is just another time I let delusion get the better of me. Fool me once. ..
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Old 03-14-2015, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by anattaboy View Post
The way I drank in the end was against my moral code is all I was saying.
True there, I acted in ways that are against my core principles - lying, sneaking, hiding things, ditching responsibility. Does that make me immoral? Obviously not since my core principles abhor this behavior. Does it mean that addiction changes our brains in medically testable ways, and to some extent changes us into different people with different values and characters? Yup. Does it mean we're powerless to change it? No, but it can be really really hard since the thinking rational parts of our brains, **us**, get increasingly clouded by all this other stuff revolving around feeding the reptile.

Originally Posted by silentrun View Post
I would not identify myself as an alcoholic anymore. At first it was helpful because I needed to get what was going on and that is a great way to communicate it. Now it is just another time I let delusion get the better of me. Fool me once. ..
I don't either, because I haven't drank a drop in years and there isn't even any PAWS left in me.
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Old 03-14-2015, 08:38 AM
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Perhaps I dont quite understand what is meant by the use of immoral , but lying, cheating, ducking are immoral acts, kinda makes the doer of such things immoral by definition. Though I agree acting morally is always a choice and sometimes it takes a Lot of conscious effort to act morally and even more perhaps when faced with the consequences of our past immoral actions.
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Old 03-14-2015, 08:48 AM
  # 79 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by dwtbd View Post
Perhaps I don't quite understand what is meant by the use of immoral ...
I take it as the difference between internally defined principles and actions. Demonstrated by: I am not immoral even though some of my actions may be. I would not want to get too hung up on the distinctions though. If my actions are not consistent with my morals, then I am acting morally. For me, it is important that both my morals are defined by me and that my actions are consistent with those morals.
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Old 03-14-2015, 08:53 AM
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Me? I drank money that could have gone to better causes, was obtuse to say the least, and basically ignorant to a lot of my family's needs for most of the day because even evening binge drinking takes up the better part of one's day (and all of the evening). Again these are my personal limits. My 24 yr old son recently forgave me for being absent for the latter half of his life but "I" still feel the sting. True repentance is doing something different. Not drinking no-matter-what is key to my forward movement and frees up gads of time to spend with my 3 daughters. Very much a moral choice for me.
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