I know that exercise GT, what I was saying is that in making the choice to drink Zenchaser has given away the power he was alluding to in his comment

"you can only give away your power if you choose to"

I was pointing out that it is not possible to give that power away.

Thanks for expanding upon your statement a little more GT.
I still find it remarkable to me, as I still remember the state clearly....but I by no means doubt your veracity or your sincerity.

Another example of the different roads we all take :)

D

Ahh, I see now.

I'd be inclined to agree

I can't either. But I sure as hell can remember all the negative consequences.

The R in AVRT
 

I think I've finally got it. R is for recognition and that's it. It's not for rationalizing, relapse or reasoning. Simply recognize and move on.

Hi beast! Don't you look stupid today. I see you. Now F-off.

Now, THAT'S the Fn Spirit!-)

-----

Can you see what you just did there, you didn't "recognize and move on" you recognized and ridiculed. Your whole energy "for want of a better word" towards a AV is never to simply recognize. This can be evidenced by peoples verbal attacks, disgust or put downs BUT in my opinion the more subtle error "linguistically" is to give shape and form to an imaginary being and calling it a Beast in the first place. As much as many people demand that these descriptions are purely metaphoric, most attitudinal expressions of the AVRT are decidedly unmetaphoric. What tends to happen to many is a kind of Anthropomorphism and strange idea Addiction and an AV resides in a certain part of the brain, that this AV has a kind of "ghost in the machine" quality with its own motivations, desires and evil intent.

My dictionary says anthropomorphism is the attribution of human characteristics or behavior to a god, animal, or object. Well, as I see it, AVRT actually does the opposite of anthropomorphisation. It de-anthropomorphizes a particular appetite, wanting to get drunk;

an appetite that I permanently resist and didn't want any more;

an appetite based upon healthy survival based pleasure seeking, but unfortunately set upon drinking more alcohol. Fortunately, though, alcohol is not necessary for survival. My human competence easily understood that permanent abstinence would eliminate problems of drunkenness.

So why did I have so much ambivalence about just quitting for good? Well, because that animal-based pleasure seeking couldn't flip 180 degrees from "Yes, figure out how to drink some more and not get in trouble" to "Nope, drinking is absolutely wrong for me, ever again!" as fast as my humanness had flipped. That biological slowness to change is part of pleasure based habits, but that slowness can be beaten with AVRT.

I did go through a lot of agony before making the flip, but when I flipped 180 degrees, I also realized it had been that animal-based pleasure seeking that had held me back from making that flip for so long.

Rational Recovery teaches how to easily strip away from my humanness the animal-based desire to drink some more.

Without AVRT, my first cognizance of a rising desire to drink some more is that it is ME.
With AVRT, my REcognizance of the desire to drink some more is that it is IT - The Beast;

and IT is ONLY the desire to drink some more and NOT any other appetite. The Beast is singlemindedly stupid by definition. The Beast is just, and only, as exacting as the problem - alcohol going into my mouth.

This dissociative technique works wonderfully in partnership with The Big Plan. AVRT makes clear that the Big Plan is a requirement for the easiest and least intrusive recovery. And the Big Plan makes the ongoing use of AVRT so much more obvious.

Something I decided to do that RR doesn't specifically teach is to swear at my Beast. I did it early on because I think swearwords have a significantly stronger effect in my midbrain than other words. I didn't consider it "recognize and ridicule". It was closer to a variation of "Shifting." For me today, swearing at my Beast would be like beating a dead horse.

I don't hear voices - yet. But when my AV 'speaks' to me I listen. Then I reason for a minute. Then I dismiss it. My AV comes in the way of thinking. "It's such a nice evening, a cold would beer would be nice." Or a month or so ago, "I am so f#@%$g mad right now I just want to get drunk and say eff it!"
I've encountered both of those scenarios over the past year. My method is to acknowledge the thought. Isolate the thought. Then dismiss the thought.
Acknowledge -A, Isolate - I, Dismiss - D. A-I-D. It's my AID to staying sober.
Sometimes I will just think to myself, what a stupid idea. I make no big deal out of it.
Then I remind myself that I don't drink. Period. End of story.

I agree there is a difference between simple recognition of IT, and swearing back at IT. But I can't imagine where the idea came from that someone learning and using AVRT would have a goal of "never to simply recognize" the AV. When learning and using Addictive Voice Recognition Technique, one cannot help but fall into a pattern of simple recognition. It's happened to me without deliberate conscious intent on all three substances I made a Big Plan for.

Simple recognition is the condition of stable equilibrium that puts recovery behind me instead of struggling one day at a time with other sobriety seekers who clearly have a goal of "never to simply recognize" or even begin to separate the Beast of their addiction from themselves.

"Our liquor was but a symptom." The Big Book

AV.

Symptom of what, character defects or something? :thinking:

"Wanting to be drunk" is indeed a character flaw, sinful and just plain "less than one's potential" and yes, that thought can and will infect the whole organism. By plucking the seed thought/act the rest of the organism follows. Not without some effort mind you--one needs to get out of bed and actually DO something but waiting for a celestial lobotomy while prostrating daily is not "doing" anything.

We humans are a complicated lot. I gained a new perspective on my understanding of addiction , when I reached the point of enough is enough and finding out about RR/AVRT. Quitting for real lead me to looking back and trying to figure out what my drinking was and how I could have lived as a drinker for so long.

The two step approach I adopted #1 Stop , #2 Don't would have, for alot of reasons, seemed impossible when I identified as a drinker, that self identification was also dependent on alot of reasons/justifications/rationalizations. One of the biggest impediments to adopting a mindset that would allow trying a two step approach was accepting ideas that catered to the notion that the choice was beyond my reach, or that the cause was not entirely my doing and so therefore the cure would not come from within. Once I 'tried' to believe that I had power of the choice, Idid.

Humans have enjoyed alcohol since the earliest written history and undoubtedly back into the neolithic stone age. Humans enjoy sex and nice dinners too. All these tens of billions of normal people can't all be flawed and defective, and sinful only makes sense in the context of religion. Some of us become addicted to alcohol after drinking enough, often enough, but that is a medical issue, not a moral issue, and can be fixed by abstinence.

Is the act of self intoxication a medical or moral issue?( Aside from withdrawl mediation )

If it wasn't pleasant at some level, billions of people across the world wouldn't drink alcohol. Is it immoral to do things that are pleasurable? I don't think so.

I would say it's not black and white,

Becoming intoxicated is a personal choice, many people can do it without causing harm to themselves or others, in which case there's no medical or moral issue. If however your self-intoxication is causing harm to yourself and other, then I would say it becomes both a medical and a moral issue.

I'd also add that if you have become aware that your self-intoxication is very likely to cause harm to yourself and to others, it becomes much more of a moral issue and becomes your responsibility to knock it off. What I like about AVRT is the fact that you take this moral responsibility on yourself.

I don't murder. I don't steal. I don't rape. I don't drink. Hmmm.