soberlicious

"Native beliefs" to me aren't just things that are taught. They can be instinctual-from your gut. I think of my mother, who is 77 now, raised in the deep south during segregation. She tells me she remembers sitting in places as a small child, like the doctor's waiting room in a comfy chair, while black families waited outside. She saw this all day every day everywhere and never felt comfortable with it. Even as a young child, on some level she recognized that her privilege based only on skin color was wrong. That belief certainly wasn't encouraged or taught...where did it come from? Perhaps it was a native belief?

Algorithm

You're not doing anyone any favors by conflating Jack Trimpey's personal beliefs with AVRT itself. Although Jack synthesized AVRT from the input of the self-recovered population, and he owns the trademarks to it, AVRT is not dependent on Jack Trimpey. It is simply a body of knowledge.

Your sentiments are largely a rehash of the very same ones raised early on in the original AVRT discussion thread, and which were wisely addressed at the onset. I view it largely as a diversion, personally.

Even Jon Heller, who founded Sober Recovery, despite his disagreements with Jack's ideas, nevertheless stated in his posts on the RR forums that Jack was onto something with AVRT. I would have to search through the RR forum archives to find it, but it is in there somewhere.

That may be so, but you have nonetheless internalized many of their ideas -- such as abstinence being inferior to sobriety -- and are espousing them.

Jack believes in G-d devoutly, from what he's written, yet his method does not place finding G-d as an obstacle to recovery, or encourage atheists to convert in order to recover. That's more than can be said for many ardent secularists or ardent religionists.

He has his personal beliefs, certainly, but OTOH, he's far more reasonable than many would make him out to be. Conversely, without his 'dogmatic' approach, I'm not certain that the space for the 'alternatives' would even exist. Someone had to do what he did in order to make change possible.

Something to consider.

MindfulMan

I never said that AVRT was without value.

I do believe that. I also disagree with the 12 Step insistence that sobriety is defined by working the steps and finding "spiritual growth" that way. That can work for some, for sure.

I don't intrinsically value any recovery method over any other. Different approaches work for different people. A synthesis of many approaches is what works for me.

If there are things I disagree with about any particular approach I'm pretty sure I'm free to espouse them. Every organization has its share of BS.

The more I hear about Tripley, the more he seems to leader of a cult of personality, and the more similarities I see between him and Bill W.

He is also not singularly responsible for the secular recovery movement, although he certainly had an influence in the late 80s through the mid-90s. 12 Step is only half the "recovery" game in Europe and Australia, unlike here in the US. There are many other approaches to recovery that aren't based on 12 Step. Or God, for that matter.

So he's not "ardent." So what.

Morning Glory

I think we should avoid the personal Trimpey subject.
I might get triggered.

Algorithm

It has to do with item #12 in GerandTwine's original informed consent post that started this thread:

And with your question earlier:

He is saying that you don't need to find a new design for living, or a new way of life, in order to recover from substance addiction. You can stay who you are, and recover nonetheless.