naz111

Hello!

Rational Recovery and AVRT make sense to men on a deep level. I want to be done with this permanently. I was in 12 step for 13 years, quite devoted and had periods of sobriety. I've been out of it for 2 years attempting to apply AVRT and the Big Plan. While I have had periods of sobriety, it is just that. Periods of abstaining between drinks. I somehow fool myself into thinking this is it, I am done for good, and then the AV creeps up into my head (I am aware that it is AV) and slowly believe it is me speaking and go along - after that, I spiral and feel all those same feelings of powerlessness, hopelessness, again aware that it is my AV, but also aware that I don't know how to do anything different.

I want this addiction, the behavior, OUT of my life. In the past, when I got sober in 12 step programs, I would do ANYTHING to not think. I knew that the beginning part was where I was most vulnerable, and even though I was unaware of the AV, I knew that if that dark mentality took hold I was going to take a drink. So I avoided thinking as much as possible and kept my mind occupied.

I don't know what approach to take to make this stick. Welcome the AV and allow it into my thought process (easy) and not act on it (impossible??). Or stay on defense and at the first sign of AV speaking, mentally block it out. How do I actually make a Big Plan that is a REAL Big Plan!? No matter what mentality takes over, how can I always be awake enough to never act on it.

I feel like I am not even at a place to white knuckle because that would mean that there is some gap between me and It.

I thought it wouldn't hurt to get some feedback. So thanks for reading!

Colin1

Hi naz, you're facing the same problem I did a few weeks ago when I was trying to figure out a way to get myself to believe my soon to be created Big Plan. Full disclosure, I'm 45 days AF and this is the first time I'm working with the RR system, so I have very little experience behind me. Having said that, I did get myself to the point where I truly believe I will never have a drink again and that I will never change my mind. It took me three or four days to get myself in that 'headspace' and it's been solid since. Since then I've found it easy to stay on top of my AV. It does sneak up on me sometimes and surprise me, but it's become second nature for me to remember my Big Plan and end any thoughts of drinking immediately. It's just not a big deal anymore.

Here's how it went for me. I am a very logical person and I knew full well that every time I've ever decided to quit drinking in the past I failed eventually even though when I made the decision I was convinced that was it for me. I couldn't get past that, but I really wanted to because I felt that if I could it could well be the end of my drinking problem. So I worked on it. With gusto

At the time I was a couple of weeks into the 30 day Alcohol Experiment at This Naked Mind and all their information about what alcohol actually does to us as opposed to what people generally assumed it did was still fresh in my mind. Then there was that I had started drinking at 17 and I'm 64 now and I really was living on borrowed time. Plus all the other obvious reasons that getting drunk every day isn't such a good idea. That still didn't convince me though. Ya, I'm a hard case, lol. So I wrote down a list of the positives and negatives I got from drinking. The only positive was that I liked the feeling of being drunk. The list of negatives was pretty long though and this was what finally got through to me. It was an aha moment for me, like the switch flipped finally.

As I said, it took me a few days to work through it all. There were times I thought it was hopeless and I would simply not get there. One thing I think helped me was knowing how malleable the human mind is. Our memories and our ways of thinking can change through outside inputs (for example crowd mentality kicking in, propaganda, mass psychosis, etc) so why not from my own inputs.

So that was my experience with getting myself there, but that's me. My bet is this process will be different for everyone, but I'm hoping something I've said might help you out a bit. Take it easy on yourself naz and I wish you all the best with it!

advbike

When I got sober for over 3 years in 2013 I did it with support from SR. Being in a class really helped, for support. But so did my commitment, which was basically that drinking "was no longer an option". I knew nothing about AVRT at that time, or Big Plans, but it was that decision to take it off the table that made it possible. As such, I also did not negotiate with my AV because I believe that is inviting trouble. Just dismiss the thought immediately. After a couple months the AV turns into a whimper. I have had many incredible adventures - international travel, dining out, a new relationship, living overseas, moving, etc - without a drop of alcohol, and never missed it.

I did pick up again in 2017 when I became complacent, hadn't been on SR in months, and had an immense amount of personal stress in my life - I knew it would provide relief, and it did for a while. But after realizing that "moderate" drinking was also forestalling progress on the main issue - my codependency, I made the decision to quit again. Problem was I would "quit", then I would slip up every month or two . So I have gone back to my original method. Drinking is simply "not an option". That's as permanent as I can make it. I did the list of pluses and minuses and it became clear that was my only choice. So I dismiss drinking thoughts immediately, I never negotiate with the AV and I have learned ANY thought of future drinking is coming from my AV. I feel great again and never even think about alcohol anymore.

Free2bme888

Welcome!

BTW, once You realize WE control our arms, legs, hands, feet and mouth, it’s totally doable. Easy? Oh God, no!

impossible you say, I disagree.

the hardest part is figuring out YOUR recipe for success. The common thread is that WE are in control BEFORE we take that first drink, not after. So no first drinks.

So whether it’s AA, SMART, SR, just yourself, AVRT, a combo of all the above, idk. Some people feel comfortable believing that their addiction is a disease, others feel addiction is just that-addiction to an addictive substance.

When I quit smoking cigs in 1987, I just new that I wanted to be a non smoker, and there were happy former smokers and happy never smokers. I really wanted that freedom from the chains more than I wanted to cave to my lizard brain. I believed in myself.

For me, alcohol is a little more complicated, but I WILL NOT CAVE OR BELIEVE THE LIES THE BEAST TELLS ME IN MY OWN VOICE.

i wish you the best 🤓❤️

Colin1

I totally agree with you Free, we all need to discover what will work for each of us. What I find really neat now is there are so many alternatives for us to investigate, it certainly was not always like this.

dwtbd

Permanent abstinence has always , for time immemorial, been a personal option and the ultimate goal. Millions and millions of people have self recovered by making a sincere self pledge to refrain from future drinking. It’s the inter webs are new ! Lol
Congratulations on your decision !

naz111

Thank you for your response!

I completely agree that we control our actions. I think I struggle with the idea of being able to control my thoughts. Or reactions to my thoughts. Obviously I cannot eliminate the AV nor do I want to. I want to be immune to it. However, I feel like there is a level of thinking, or rather a belief, a truth, necessary to see the AV for what it is and not engage in it. I see it, It shows me "not a big deal" or whatever flavor it is playing that day, and I follow along.

I really want AVRT to work because I do not want any dependencies on a program or fellowship. It hasn't worked for me in the past and I don't see it working in the future.

I am also aware that I haven't been able to make a REAL BP because of this underlying problem with my thinking and simply NOT believing that this can work for me on a deep level.

I WILL SUCCEED!

dwtbd

Do you believe that you honestly don’t want to be a drunk ever again?

I believed I honestly didn’t want to be a drunk anymore, and then I realized the only way to do it. No matter what, I had to quit , so as crazy as my AV thought it was , I quit , no matter what . I decided to quit forever , unbelievably to my AV , and then I realized I didn’t ‘have’ to do forever all at once , I just don’t ever drink Now, I can handle any literal Now , any one of them , all of them ,(they get ‘easier’), Now is more than just manageable, my AV focuses on the forever , that is Its job, mine is only Now and all the other ones , the joke is on It , Nows are easy comparatively.

Forever just refers to the fact I decided to never change mind , it’s not an actual ‘thing’ I need to ‘endure’ , it’s just the rest of the living Nows , I’ll have.

Take the leap of faith that you can make the decision in the face of unbelief , mind games are/can be counterintuitive and you are embroiled in one right now , time for different tactics , take the leap, you got this, Rootin for ya

DriGuy

I see this as the critical part of your post:

Like you, I was intensely aware of how near I was to a drink and how strong those cravings were in the "beginning part," but the "following part" is where the real vulnerability lies. It's why so many alcoholics cave after periods of sobriety. When you start to feel recovered in "the following part," is when you're guard comes down as you begin to feel invulnerable. And that makes the following part the most vulnerable. As alcoholics, we are always vulnerable, for now and forever. It's sadly the hand we are dealt. We can never let our guard down. That doesn't mean we go around scared to death worrying. It means we must make vigilance a permanent part of our life. For me that became something that is always there, but playing in the background. Recognizing your AV immediately brings up the vigilance and shuts the AV down. But like any skill, recognizing the AV quickly and staying vigilant needs lots of practice, and after you have perfected it, you need to revisit it and brush up now and then. Musicians can't stop practicing if they want to maintain their skills. Alcoholics can stop practicing recognition of the AV and vigilance if they expect to keep these skills in top working order.

naz111

Do I really want to stop? Yes. But (AV) I want to feel like it doesn’t bother me. I want neutrality around it.



I’ve had experiences in the past where being around my DOC gave me no feelings or thoughts. And then of course when the desire comes back strong enough for long enough I acted. I thought because I had the desire I was doing something wrong.



The definition of the AV is extremely important!!!! Any thought feeling or sensation and remotely suggests drinking is the AV. Only objective: get me to drink.



My AV no longer jumps into craving mode explicitly. What is does is character assassination. Shows me all of my failures, all the reasons I can’t keep this up, even though I may want it so bad. Always always do I decide to act before I do. Well in advance. It is then that it makes me believe it is me.



The ironic thing, since learning avrt and my half hearted attempts at applying it, my drinking intensity and frequency have lessened. Which of course it uses to its advantage. That’s why I do believe that a decision to quit must stand alone and not be based in any rational thinking that could have a counter argument. Last time my AV said it isn’t that bad, I’m not that bad, etc etc. no one is getting hurt, just me. Blah blah blah.



I believe the difference between my first approach (suppression and avoidance of the thoughts) and using AVRT to work for me is to embrace the AV. Learn to walk into it rather than away from it. And see it for what it is. A quadriplegic whose only aim is for me to drink. If I continue to fear it I don’t think I will be able to succeed long term. It has been alpha now I have to be.



Feel its feeling and attribute it to my Beast. Disassociation on steroids. The AV is going to be strong (in its hidden ways) why not take advantage of it and use it for massive practice to separating from it.



So rather than wanting neutrality around alcohol, why not work towards the realistic aim of wanting to feel separate from it.



I can always NOW never drink. And let my thoughts be whatever they want to be. Just not do it NOW. and NOW. And NOW.



Yeah, all of this isn’t going to work if I don’t permanently quit. Always NOW not drink. Which is ultimately what I want.

dwtbd

Doubt in your ability or the efficacy of using AVRT is also AV.

naz111

Yes - this was recently something I was unaware of. Feels like a relief to know that the doubt is not me.

There are times in the past where I feel "overtaken" by the AV. I have awareness of these experiences being the AV, but not much I can do about it. Saying this was vertigo or any other disassociation techniques often times do not take the feeling and thoughts away. Has anyone who has successfully implemented their Big Plan experience this? Do I just take it minute by minute at those times? Fighting it makes it worse.

These are the situations that I always cave. I know it is not me, but I don't want to sit in the unknown amount of discomfort that feels overwhelming. I am thinking the only way to overcome these situations is to simply say something like "not me!" and just tolerate it. Maybe attempt to implement the disassociation techniques regardless of if it feels effective or not. The NOT ME is important. It is not me. It never has been me. It has ALWAYS been my AV. I wanted this addiction done a decade ago.

dwtbd

The thing is it has always been you , an AV is a part of You , and as a 'part' identifying all positive thinking about drinking or negative thoughts about Your ability to decide and remain abstinent as It, allows You to separate from that part of you , from IT.
Every time you decide to drink , it is you deciding to do so, so in a sense You are the AV , all of Its tenets are accepted by You , active addiction is 'being all Beast'.
A Big Plan is the decision to separate and isolate that 'part'. Utilizing Addictive Voice Recognition Technique , You scan your thoughts and identify those that if acted on will mean future alcohol consumption. If the most rational or true self, the You in you decides to never again be a drunk , the only way to guarantee that outcome is to embrace abstinence. No booze in, no drunk get. The rub is the deep pleasure of self intoxication can no longer be an option, for the part of you that is defined by the mechanism and urge for future alcohol this decision is a death knell, and any such mechanism worth its salt is going to fight tooth and nail to indulge Its raison d etre .
But the thing is, not ever being a drunk again is worth so much more than all the 'missed' deep pleasure of more booze , all of them. Sometimes the meaning between the experience of that pleasure and continued existence , yeah ?
There is a seemingly irrational strategy that one can employ to guarantee never being a drunkard , it is 100 % doable , and I bet you know it, so identify that which is stopping You and separate from IT, rootin for ya

naz111

AMAZING! Thank you!

I read somewhere AVRT gives the tool to stick to a decision to abstain for life comfortably. And I believe because of my 12 step background, it gives me the option period.

I never was willing to take responsibility for my years of drinking or years of abstaining. I used to believe that something would overcome me (desire ha) and I would eventually fall down into this uncontrollable pit where I did not have a say in what happened (alllll Beast). It is so twisted the years that I felt powerless over this thing.

I've been interested for some time to see what happens on the other side of a Big Plan. To see how my AV kicks in and attempts to survive, pulling all the tricks and throwing in some new one. This thing (AV) that has kept me down for so long, I almost want to study it.

Thanks dwtbd - super helpful.

I will update!

naz111

I think it is very important for me to note too, that abstaining one day at a time, keeping the option open, in my opinion is still ALL BEAST.

Translation: I'll abstain for now and try to get my life in order, rid myself of the consequences, but if the desire becomes too strong, I will pull the trigger, drink, and not know when I am going to stop. Because my addiction is my god as long as that option is possible.

dustyfox

Yep, that's the truth of it.
Tough to say and tough to hear, but that's what it is.

msl999

naz, I too tried and failed to achieve abstinence with AA. I’m glad you found us!

I learned about Rational Recovery on this site and am going on 5 years happily alcohol-free. It saved my life.

Have you read the book “Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction”? It’s essential in learning about AVRT. Also, iI would suggest reading all 6 parts of the AVRT thread pinned at the top of this forum

Here’s the link: https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...-part-1-a.html (Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion-Part 1)

Obladi

Hi naz,

This stuff was all so difficult for me - the rituals and incantations of both AA and RR seemed to offer opposing methods for getting and staying sober. For sure, those of Rational Recovery are much fewer. I will never drink again and I will never change my mind is a whole lot more rational than progressing through the 12-steps of AA in a manner determined by one's sponsor. Where both approaches converge is in the conviction to never drink. In AA it's one day at a time (forever). In AVRT it's forever (now).

I worked the AVRT approach to the best of my ability, but it always felt like I was whistling in the dark - not feeling it, you know? I worked the AA approach to the best of my ability, but it required an awful lot of tolerance for a person such as myself, what with people having all of their different interpretations and rules about the program. In any case, what was overwhelming me was thought/feelings, not a (conscious) craving for alcohol. Unlike my friend dwtbd, I didn't decide I never wanted to be drunk again, but instead I came to that "jumping off point" we hear about in AA. There was no way out but to stop drinking. And I couldn't do it, so I went to rehab. That is a story in and of itself, but the bottom line is that it took a very long time after rehab to internalize the thought/feeling that I was never going to drink again and never change my mind. To be honest with you, two years on, that little flame of future drinking is still not completely extinguished; it's as if there is still a pilot light glowing - which, of course there is. That is the beast, the addiction. It's a part of me that will never go away.

Getting to the point - my Addictive Voice got so sophisticated in the end there that it didn't need to say a word - it just let the beast take over. The last couple of times I drank, I had no awareness whatsoever of what was happening within me, had no forewarning that the drinking was going to 'happen.' As a scholar of AVRT, I know this is not possible - after all, I am the person who procured and drank the stuff. The AA perspective is that I "must have missed something" because if I was doing it right, I would have done any number of prescribed steps to not drink. While we could argue both points and have a good long intellectual discussion about them, the point is that - for me, neither mattered - I needed to condition myself to never drink now, full stop. Knowing about the beast and the AV and powerlessness and neural pathways and triggers all of the other Things wasn't going to do me any good until I never drank now. Once I did that, I was able to start identifying my thoughts/feelings at the get-go. Before I never drank now, there was no chance I was going to be able to do that. My brain was too well conditioned to compartmentalize, diminish, transmute, and ignore the things that troubled me.

I always thought (because I was told) that looking at my thoughts/feelings was a form of deflection and also beside the point. And it is, in regard to never drinking now. It was only by learning to live through the enormous discomfort of my feelings without the buffering effect of alcohol that I was able to get curious about the origin - the root origin - of those feelings/thoughts/beliefs. Browse your internet for "RAIN." Interestingly enough, the first two components of this approach are Recognizing (AVRT) and Acceptance (AA).

It wasn't easy to go through all of this. In fact, it was the hardest thing I've ever done in six decades of living. But it's also my biggest accomplishment. My never drinking again is maintained by a series of "now" moments in which I never drink. Consequently, my life has become much more expansive than the constant drink-not drink debate that previously occupied a large part of my brain activity.

I hope sharing my experience might help trigger something for you, if only that there is someone who may understand your struggle.

O

DriGuy

One day at a time never made sense to me either. When I committed to "forever" I wanted forever, not just one day. That worked, and it was a pivotal moment in my recovery when made that choice. Like you, "one day at a time" sounds to me like my AV talking. RR's big plan is so basic and simple, that my first reaction when I later heard it was, "Duh?? Of course! We know this is what we have to do."

MesaMan

.
I found there's a lot of Language obfuscating the simple.

When I just up and quit because I had to, even that is mislabeled as 'White Knuckling'. A Method somewhat-dismissed as an inferior way to do what untold Addicts have had to do prior to ~1 Century ago. I was generally aware of the drawbacks, but was extremely desperate. I was about 3 Months in before I searched for, and found, SR. I wanted only to scaffold some structure around my 'Big Quit'. And, hang on line - in real time - with like-minded Addicts.

Many Years ago on some Weekend Morning TV Show, an older Gent with a Brain Injury was interviewed. He had no Short Term Memory to speak of. So, when told about his deceased Wife, he went through the intense grieving process all over again. As though it had never happened prior. This seemed like some cruel Hell On Earth to me.

In a like, though less-cruel manner, having to decide every Day that I would stay Sober struck me as a low key version of going through some awful scenario yet again.No thanks. I think we all know the AV will seize upon the smallest crack in ones resolve to get that first Drink. I found that only an unforgiving Mental Firewall would work. For me. I don't care much care about what works for others, since I'm the only Person trying to sober up here. Further, relying on others to remain Sober struck me as very Quicksand-like, and negatively conditional. Co-dependent Sobriety, if you will. I wanted to be able to be anywhere in the World, and in any situation, with my Sobriety intact. That meant my Mental Firewall had to be welded down, and concreted in, without any conditional terms tolerated. Ironically, I found this approach to be the 'easy' way out: no negotiations entertained, or allowed. I am forever grateful for comprehesive SR Resources, and the Community here.

'Where The Mind Goes The Body Will Follow'