Jo43

[QUOTE=DriGuy;7771315]The argument with the AV is not there anymore for me either, and I think this is the way recovery is supposed to be. The argument needs to be absent. Arguing with your AV just keeps you engaged with the problem, rather than the solution. But it's hard to pass on to someone else how to get to that point. In retrospect for me, it was all about commitment and resolve. Yeah? So OK, how do you pass on to others how to get to commitment and resolve? That of course, is exactly the problem they are up against. I guess all we can share is telling others about it. It's up to them to find it. Maybe it works different for others, but I think there is one universal truth for all of us. "We can't be half-way about any of this."[/QUOTE

Totally agree! All I can do is let them know how it was for me. I agree that we definitely can't be half way about any of it

Mummyto2

Thanks, i just looked that up AVRT, i have saved it and i will go through that tomorrow.

Colin1

I agree DriGuy. I read first about AVRT and RR here on SR after I joined. It was new to me. After reading the thread 'AVRT Explained (long)' here I bought the Rational Recovery book by Trimpey. That process, simple as it is, made a lot of sense to me. I had a really good feeling about it. I knew I could only commit to a big plan once, that if I drank once after that it would likely never be an option for me again. Spent three days getting my mind around it and made the commitment. A couple of months later, it's been a very good experience for me.

But I've failed at getting sober many times already, I really wanted this one to stick or I wouldn't live much longer, and although I'm an old fart I know I can handle internal change. If that sounds like me bragging, I don't mean it that way, that was my thought process at the time.

I really think this won't work for everyone. It's a very good tool for people who it 'calls to', but I have no idea what percentage of people that is. I quit smoking ten years ago by switching to vaping, but I've seen that fail with other people numerous times since too. This stuff is personal, we all have to find a way that works for us.

But if it is a good fit for someone it can be a very good experience

SimplySue

You had two drinks but you are back and that’s the main thing. You are fully aware of what’s happening to you, so draw strength from that! I’m going to look up AVRT now too. There is so much help on here and you are definitely in the right place.
Hang in there!

DriGuy

SR is where I heard about it too, but I already had years of sobriety under my belt. AVRT just resonated with me, because without knowing about it, it was my method, although I never articulated it in the same way Trimpey did. I've read his book too, but just to see how closely Trimpey's views mirror mine. And like any program, it's not a perfect match, but it comes closer to my strategy than any other.

It can be a bumpy road, and I failed many times, until I formulated my Big Plan, although not in Trimpey's words. But with the full force of my commitment behind that plan, it's been mostly smooth sailing since then

It's not bragging, and even if it was, so what? But one thing to think about is how much of recovery is internal (as in mental) and how much is external (as in behavioral). One of my insights along the way was how much of recovery from addiction is behavioral, which is what I call the external part of me.

I agree. No program works for everyone, but every program has something, if only one little thing that can be part of someone's toolbox. And my personal toolbox was my strongest asset in recovery. It just happens that AVRT comes closer to that strategy than any other, but it's still not a perfect match. It doesn't have to be, because essentially, we all work out of our own toolbox. Recovery is personal.

Steely

I'm sorry.

You know what to do. It's just a matter of doing it.

What else is there?

Choose life.

SoberLeigh

Just checking in with you, Quitorelse.

Hope you stay close to us.

Colin1

IMO our behavior is driven by our conscious and subconscious (the beast) mind. Unless I'm missing something here

Yup, I agree totally DriGuy. My toolbox has a lot more in it than just my Big Plan, specially so soon in my sobriety. My confidence in being able to withstand any 'AV moment' is just not solid enough for me to put all my faith in that alone. So I have a backup plan b and a backup to the backup plan c ready just in case. Ya, I take this pretty seriously

Definitely Steely, it's just proven really hard for me to stick to 'just doing it' in the past. Gave it some thought and changed my plan to a way I think is better for me. So far so good.

DriGuy

True, but not completely. Recovery is about changing this mix of conscious and subconscious driven behavior, by adding more thought out control (conscious thought), thereby changing errant behavior, especially in later recovery. In early recovery, say before 3 months of abstinence and while we were drinking, it's true that our behavior is driven by thoughts, emotions, and a combination of cockamamie conscious and subconscious drives, and even external factors. In recovery we can change our behavior first, and that's what I did.

What I discovered many years ago is that we can fix our behavior, and even our minds. At first, I believed it had to be done through introspection, meditation, or counseling to gain insight and more accurate perspectives, which can lead to natural changes in how we behave. But then I discovered that we can achieve the same results by doing it backwards; Change our behavior first, and experience the insights that come from that later without spending time talking to counselors and ourselves about our problems. My predisposed default state was to think my way through problems, and that may be true for many of us. But both approaches work, and depending on the problem, one can work better than the other to achieve the same desired outcomes. This is a continuum where we can mix the two with one end being all thought, and the other all behavior. But both ends come into play.

Your response to me "behavior is driven by our conscious and subconscious (the beast) mind. Unless I'm missing something here" is saying "thoughts influence our behavior." And they certainly can. The part you ARE missing is that it also goes the other way around; Our behavior influences our thoughts. And this is dramatically demonstrated when we finally "get it" and quit (change our behavior) and then we experience massive gains in self confidence, pride, and how we see ourselves as whole persons.

Now back to my earlier point. What I found was that recovery from alcoholism is a classic example of where the behavior approach is leaps and bounds more effective than the humanistic approach in personal growth. Of course, this is me. It may be different for others, and I am starting to accept that as I know there are some people here who see in terms of thinking their way to personal growth first. Also, I am currently reading a book by an author who is selling a totally psychiatric point of view. He makes a fair case of pressing this classic viewpoint, but it's clear that he is at the Humanist end of the continuum and disregards Behaviorism completely. And it reads to me like he's possibly trying to sell his own product. But I have an obvious bias, because I found that it was definitely not true in my case, a former humanist, who came to see my original idea was the less effective way for me to deal with my alcoholism.

Yes, this is a very serious undertaking, and we need to cover all the bases. While I'm a big fan of AVRT, as I mentioned before, as with other programs, it's not a perfect fit for me, and my issue is specifically with the Big Plan, which Trimpey presents as a pledge ("I will not take another drink again.. ever!"), a pledge that solves all future issues. And it will, but only if you carry it through, which is a caveat that hangs completely on behavior. If I understand correctly, Trimpey is from the Behaviorist Camp too. My problem is that pledges and oaths are often hollow gestures. You can't pledge your way to success. I made pledges in Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, and along with millions of other alcoholics have sworn off alcohol, only to drink again. In elementary school, I pledged allegiance to a colored piece of cloth in the corner of the room.

As I said before, when I first heard of AVRT, it resonated because I saw that it was what I had already done on my own. Maybe this is an inconsequential point, but I never viewed the Big Plan as Trimpey describes it. I never made a formal pledge. I never really even promised that I would never drink again. I just decided I never would. It was more like I recognized what I had to do, and boiled the AA slogan, "Keep it Simple," down to its most simple essence, and I recognized that drinking was now off the table. Sure, there was some thought in that, but the action was purely conscious directed behavior, and the Beast, along with my AV, be damned.

One more supportive thought. It's understood that most alcoholics who achieve recovery do it on their own. We don't really know who these people are. They don't hang out in forums, they didn't go to recovery groups or AA, or assemble a library of literature about alcohol, talk to counselors, or go to rehab. They just quit. I've met but a handful of these people, and have asked them how they did it on their own, and I have gotten the the same answer from of all of them, "I just decided to quit."

Can it be that simple? Yes, it can be for some, and their answer comes in the form of the simplest recovery plan possible. My hat is off to them. We should all be that lucky and just get on with our lives. The one positive in all this for me is that I have enjoyed the journey so much that I probably wouldn't change much if I had to do it over, which of course, I refuse to do because I never want to put myself in that position again.

Colin1

I've never studied phsychology Driguy and have never encountered the concepts of humanism and behaviorism in this context. I just read up a bit on them and it's very interesting. Thanks for getting me started on this

DriGuy

I'm happy you looked it up because that would explain it better than I could here. Back when I studied it, humanists sometimes referred to the behaviorists as "rat psychologists" who trained animals to press the red button, but not the blue one. I pictured guys that ran re-education camps and were experts at brainwashing. The movie, A Clockwork Orange didn't help the behaviorist cause either. Each camp smeared the other unfairly. But some psychologists saw merit in each, and began to meld them, some becoming quite prominent in the field (Albert Ellis: Rational Emotive Behavior Theory).

The way I see it, if you voluntarily force changes in your own behavior, it's a helpful tool, and from my own experience, all the elements of self understanding are still there. I still default to thinking through my own issues, because it feels so natural, but there are situations such as breaking the cycle of addiction, when the best fix is to simply to stop acting as you are. One of the pitfalls of thinking through our issues is forgetting to test our perceptions against reality and logic, in which case, what feels like thinking is little more than spinning our wheels and going nowhere. As an alcoholic, I got trapped in that for much longer than I should have, and I think many alcoholics do.

Jim1958

As somebody that relapsed many times, all I can offer is to try again. That is really the main thing, keep trying. You can do it!