DriGuy

Jupiter, I think you've got a good attitude. Just keep taking your sobriety seriously, and much of the rest will fall in place. But it takes time.

Jupiter11

Hi Driguy

Yes, I might kid around at times, but I take my sobriety deadly serious.
I am enjoying the times now when I feel light-hearted (been so long).
Sometimes my obsessive thoughts come (I have OCD) sometimes anxiety. But I can banish them using methods I have picked up over the years.
And therapy I had helped immensely with being able to control my own thoughts.

I know I can't undo the toll all the years of drinking has taken instantly.
And can't pretend that I'm not addicted to alcohol so wouldn't be back where I started in a flash if I ever drank even one again.

​​​​​​I did try and force things in past attempts, giving up. Perfect diet, perfect exercise regimen, perfect relaxation, giving up cigarettes, sugar, processed food all at the same time, being a "perfect person" as if!

This time I'm more going with the flow. But deadly serious when it comes to alcohol.
As you say, it takes time. I plan to ease myself into the rest of my life this time.
Thanks for your encouraging post 🙂

Jupiter11

I'm absolutely knackered!
I have had zero to no energy for 3 days now
As if dragging myself into town wasn't bad enough, I forgot I had a cleaning job on this afternoon.
I felt so feeble I could hardly lift the duster (ok that was a bit of an exaggeration, but not much lol)
At least I didn't have to balance on a 6ft ladder washing a ceiling.
I was planning on flopping about on the sofa all afternoon. But at least I got paid 😃

I hope my grandson doesn't want to play monopoly when I babysit tonight, I don't think I have the energy to cheat 😞

Obladi

You have absolutely had energy, my dear!
You met up with your daughter, you went to dinner with your son, you worked today and you went to town!

I know you don't like the term "recovery," but it is important to be kind to yourself while your body and mind heal from the effects of addiction. It takes time - like a broken toe, let's say.

Jupiter11

How is the toe O?
Hope you are not in too much pain with it. It's awful having to hobble about!

Yes, I might have to concede that although I don't like the term "recovery" as in being still in recovery 100 years after you stop drinking. That in the short term at least, I have done some damage and it is going to take time to put right.
And that I am still vulnerable to strong "beast" attacks. I won't succumb to them, but they are still strong and long when they come.

Thanks for pointing out the things I have done O , I was like a deflated balloon doing them lol But they did get done, even though I didn't feel like doing anything yesterday apart from sleeping
I fell asleep in my sons when I was babysitting last night, I couldn't even be bothered to play monopoly!
At least I made it until my grandson went to bed at 8
It's now Day16
Well over a year since the last time I made it a week

Jupiter11

I have decided the holiday is over
I have been eating what I liked, it's no wonder I feel lethargic and like crap
Mostly refined carbohydrates ( which is just sugar or sugar with a middle man)
Not to mention all the fat in these junk foods.

So I'm compiling myself a healthy diet.
I used to grow micro greens in sprouting jars to make green smoothies. So I have dug all those out and have some seeds soaking now.
Some mung beans, broocolli sprouts and alfalfa

I also found a big bag of nuts which I like and some chia seeds.
I have found some packets of cacao powder, spirulina and wheatgrass in the cupboard.
I have plenty of veg and fruit I froze (instead of eating) Fruit is nice in soaked chia seeds.

Its enough to make a start at least. And see if it makes a difference.

Jupiter11

Nearly 7pm time for my bed!
Had a good afternoon. Lay about watching Netflix lol
They had a new season of Love on The Spectrum, yey. I fell asleep for an hour or so, but will watch BNT in bed for a bit now

Tomorrow I will start my new routine
Have been too tired to do anything but flop around most of the day, did input data this morning but that was just moving my fingers and eyes.

My beast has been quiet since Thursday.
No doubt it will kick off again tomorrow night as Wednesday night was always the start of the bender that lasted until Sunday or Monday.

I do get a perverse pleasure in denying IT Well it's bloody tortured me for long enough. About time I retaliated, starving IT seems reasonable

FlyingDutchMan

Love the attitude and a big congratulations on your sober time.

Jupiter11

FDM
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Obladi

You may wish to strangle me for saying so, but seeing as I'm at least an ocean away from you, try this one on for size:
Predicting beast visits is AV.

Did I just blow your mind? I know, like 'whoa, man.'

Now I'm not saying there aren't predictable times for the beast to make an appearance, because I know and you know that It is likely to make at least a token gesture at those expected times. What I am saying is that the times the beast 'got' me was when there was no way on this green earth that I could have predicted it. At least that's how it felt at the time. I was all like, "Wait, what? But I was doing all of the right things! That vodka bottle just jumped out of the bushes and dragged me under the hedges with no warning whatsoever!"

It does that. Rather, it used to do that. Now that I know there's pretty much no predicting it, I'm better equipped to handle surprise attacks such as the one I had a couple of weeks ago. Don't like it, but at least now I know what it is. I've pretty much convinced myself that the beast will make it's tiresome appearances, rattling chains and giving me the heebie-jeebies. Which sort of eliminates the need to watch for it. If I always know what It looks like (pretty easy tell that it's shaped like a liquor store), then I will always recognize it. Like I notice... I dunno, cat poop that's not in properly in the litter box. I don't plan for it, but it doesn't necessarily surprise me when I come across it, especially if I haven't cleaned the box lately.

It's nice to see you getting your health nut on. That makes a body feel so much better - just eating regular meals of regular foods. Tomorrow sounds like the perfect day to start up again. You can make some lovely wheat germ green tea chia sprout yeast carob cookies or something.

Jupiter11

You gave me such a chuckle this morning O 😆
But you are spot on though. You made me think (very hard achievement). The Wednesday night/ Thursday predictions I make are not just "I know it will come" I actually FEAR these times. And that is AV intimidation is it not?
Wednesday nights, after my money goes in, I only have an hour to wait until 10pm and the shop closes, the beast tends to sleep when the shop is shut.
But last Thursday it was unrelenting ALL day

I haven't had any surprise attacks yet. I did have one after the wedding. All weekend at the do and staying in a house where everyone brought loads of booze, not a peep!
Came home, IT unleashed a nuclear attack
And I just went along.

IT did have a niggle at my son's house when I was babysitting after grandson went to bed, because my son and his wife have a massive wine stock, but that was expected. Plus I was so tired sleep overtook me.

When I think again (twice in 1 morning ? ) you are right again, you cannot predict it and the best defence is to recognise IT as soon as it pops up, at anytime!
Thanks for these insights O. I know in RR book it says constant vigilance for the beast is AV in itself. But, recognising it when it pops up is different as you say.

Yes, the health food sounds lovely doesn't it, which is why it's been in the cupboard all this time
My son's girlfriend made me a traditional Bangladeshi drink on Sunday. I have never tasted anything so disgusting in my life ( not even my green smoothies)
My one pet hate is mint. I have to wash my mouth out if I accidentally eat some. Don't even like the smell of it.
In the drink was yogurt (I'm lactose intolerant and had already drank a pint of milk over the chilli experience). I tasted mint , chilli's, salt AND sugar. It was very refreshing, but just, just urgh!!
I drank it out of politeness, said how lovely it was and when she took my glass and went into the kitchen, had a silent fit incase she was going to refill it ..but she didn't
My lactose intolerant digestive system took all night to calm down lol
Thanks for your input O, you always give me food for thought 😃
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Jupiter11

Oh forgot
Day 17

Obladi

Yes, it's fear - of course it's fear. In the school of Rational Recovery, the entire shtick goes, "Any desire or thought or action that promotes drinking is AV. That happens because you are addicted." True enough and also a useful way to think about craving when one can't think about Any Other Thing at all. This is where a mantra or pledge or what-have-you comes in extra handy. In my case, it was some variation on a theme - "It's a good thing I Never drink Now" or "This is a time when I would have wanted to drink in the past, but I Never drink Now" or "Sure I want to drink, but I Never drink Now." Nowadays, I mostly just Never drink Now.

In other schools of recovery, one examines what lies behind and before beast activity. When I talk about staying at least two steps away from the first drink, that's kind of what I mean. I want to be in a position where I'm 'in constant vigilance' for whatever it is that leads up to the beast making its appearance. But to get there, I needed to reach some sort of baseline stability. You're doing that by recognizing the AV, Not Drinking, and (tentatively) recognizing and starting to 'own' your feelings. That's good enough for now in my book. In fact, that's awesome.

You're awesome.
Keepa go!

Next time your son's gf offers you a yogurt concoction, perhaps try saying, "Oh thank you dear, I am just stuffed to the gills - I don't think even water would fit in my stomach!"

Jupiter11

Thanks for this O

I read in AVRT that any thought or feeling that will lead to future drinking is AV.
So I have absolutely been staying away from feeling guilty about any past actions. This always without exception lead me to drinking. Even if I didn't have an urge to drink before the self-hatred started, I did after I had been doing it for a few hours.
Therefore I put any self-defeating thoughts down now to AV and don't indulge in them. They serve no useful purpose anyway to ME or the people I hurt (they serve a purpose to my AV this thinking always procured alcohol for ITs beast master)

Is that what you mean by 2 steps ahead?

I think in AVRT it advises against "constant vigilance" because this can also be AV, in that your thoughts are never far away from guarding against drinking which can be wearing and automatically brings to mind drinking. Just being able to recognise the AV when it is active is the skill taught I think.

I am in the very beginnings of separating out genuine emotion from subconsciously desiring a drink (my beast) emotion. Usually the AV indulges in right over the top emotion. Angst, worry (taken to the extreme) guilt, obsessive thoughts about ..anything. And over the top positive emotions, manic happiness leading to over confidence and the thought "everything is under control in your life, you can easily control your drinking and just have a couple"

But you are soo right, sometimes all I can muster when the beast attack is strong is to think "I don't drink now"

Thanks for this again Hope your day is good and your toe is less painful

DriGuy

I can't remember reading this in Rational Recover (the book), although it's quite possible I missed it. The big question for me would be whether it's true, and it was NOT TRUE FOR ME. As in so many parts of recovery, what is true for one is not always true for another, so I would advise caution against blowing off vigilance.

This specific skill taught is the definition of vigilance, isn't it? It's easy to get caught up in semantics, I suppose, but this is a case where we must have a clear grasp of what we need to do no matter how we define the words. I know that vigilance has never failed me, and has saved my ass more than once early on.

Alcoholics so often attribute their latest relapse to a lack of vigilance, whether they recognize what they are saying or not. The often used phrase, "It seemed like I could safely take one drink this time, but I ended up in another 6 months of drinking," seems to me to be precisely a total lack of vigilance, as the speaker was not vigilant enough to recognize that he was reacting to his AV. The AV dies in the presence of vigilance, but flourishes in its absence.

Eventually, I dropped my guard a bit, but my vigilance still operates in my conscious background all the time. Can anyone make a case against too much vigilance? I suppose there may be such an argument, but I would be very cautious about buying it whole.

Jupiter11

I see what you mean. I didn't get over what I meant very well.
I'll have to find it in the book.
It wasn't have no vigilance in keeping an eye on recognising what is AV.
It wasn't let your guard down with drink.
More, don't go around constantly expecting it to be around every corner. Don't go looking for it when it's not bothering you or be expecting it to ambush you.
Basically don't obsess over it.

Actually I don't know if it was in the book or something Terminally Unique said in one of the early AVRT threads in the forum on here.
I'll have a look
Good points

Jupiter11

Basically don't do what I am doing, anticipating the AV will try to dominate my thoughts until Friday

DriGuy

It may not be that you didn't explain it right, or maybe the book didn't, or maybe I just disagree with the book on that issue. I won't try to find it in the book to confirm it. I don't need to read it again, and obviously my program works for me, so I don't have a need to fix anything about my sobriety at this time. I can tell from your response, that "you get it," which is another way of saying I'm confident in your ability to stay sober.

I generally agree with and like RR, and many of the things it advocates were things I learned and adopted before I ever heard of the program. But I'm cautious about accepting everything about any program, but willing to consider anything before deciding whether or not to internalize it into my plan. Obviously, vigilance is a big part of my plan. But as you point out, I don't obsess on it. It's more like a mental virus detection software that operates in the background, at least at this point in my sobriety.

DriGuy

If it were possible to eradicate the AV from the human mind, we could solve most of our problems in recovery, along with half of what's wrong with humanity. But we can't. Among alcoholics, the AV is almost universally recognized as one of our biggest problems we face, even if some of us have never heard its name. And it doesn't matter if it's seen as a demon or just part of our own psychological imperfections. It's always there trying to assert itself, at least in the beginning. Eventually it does die, but after 25 years mine is still there, but only able to make feeble gasps from its deathbed.

Jupiter11

Yeah basically the "beast"of AVRT is a desire for drink generated in the limbic system ( lizard brain/beast brain) where all the urges needed for survival are generated ( I know you will know this) It has gotten there by artificial means IE the massive reward of dopamine any addictive drug gives, which outweighs even the reward given for a true survival urge.
I find this a plausible (if simple) explanation for my insane continued use of alcohol in the face of all the destruction it causes.

I am not surprised that it is similar to what you did yourself, because Trimpey based it on research he did asking people how they gave up the drink themselves!

I understand this rogue drive can never die off, once created it's there for life.
I find AVRT makes it easier for me not to act upon an urge, because I just know why it is there and I just ignore it.
I am still susceptible to the AV because I dread the thoughts of craving and falling more than the actual urge (that I can deal with).
Which is the AV setting up this dread!

As Obladi said to me, every method has the same basic thing at its core, DON'T DRINK.
And I suppose my ignoring feelings and thoughts (like my guilt and seeing it as pointless) as AV because it always leads to a drink. Is the same as AAs "stinkin thinkin" and in Smart Recovery they would tell you to do a CBA or an ABC to realise how irrational your thoughts are that lead to drinking.

I totally agree that sticking dogmatically to one method is not for everyone. A lot of people mix and match I have noticed.

I tried every method, but I didn't seriously try not drinking!! So sort of missed the point of them all.

You have given a lot of food for thought in your posts. Thanks for the encouragement too 🙂
You are obviously doing something right to have all those years sober
I will definitely bare in mind everything you have said, because I need all the help I can get ATM