Honesty
Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,163
Not to quibble brighterday, but I beg to differ. I think being honest is important mainly cause it keeps us from doing things we would want to lie about. But I feel pretty recovered and still used to tell small lies a lot (but not any more.....)
Member
Join Date: May 2021
Location: England
Posts: 1,850
I am grateful for Dee's reminder - and I find myself in an odd situation - for the fist time in over 30 years I am on the other side of the fence - reading the dishonesty, disingenuousness, self deluding BS that others have written ( no offence!) and I get it, as like everyone else I was the liar, self deceiver, manipulator, full of BS who did everything in my power to make it 'alright' for me to drink -
Over 2 weeks ago I have pledged to myself never to drink alcohol again , I have not drunk it for over 3 weeks, - and I know someone like GT could pull this apart and find my AV possibly lurking in this post, but I am committed to following through .
I feel for people who relapse, screw it up, get in a total psychological tangle about it - because I have been there many, many, many times. But of all places this is a good place to be honest in our intentions and our confessions - because I cant think of anywhere else that will understand it BUT not 'accept it' instead listen and encourage more progress to move forward into sobriety - because that is why we are all here.
Over 2 weeks ago I have pledged to myself never to drink alcohol again , I have not drunk it for over 3 weeks, - and I know someone like GT could pull this apart and find my AV possibly lurking in this post, but I am committed to following through .
I feel for people who relapse, screw it up, get in a total psychological tangle about it - because I have been there many, many, many times. But of all places this is a good place to be honest in our intentions and our confessions - because I cant think of anywhere else that will understand it BUT not 'accept it' instead listen and encourage more progress to move forward into sobriety - because that is why we are all here.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
I really believe the desire (sometimes very strong, often obsessional) to "save" or correct someone struggling is driven by a phenomenon many psychologists describe as transference, especially narcissistic transference (look up explanations online, huge interesting literature).
Why does someone feel so driven, committed, even obsessed, to relate to and "save" someone specific? Or certain types of addicts? I don't know... personally, for me, it usually occurs when I sense (correctly or via projection) in someone else that I am also just as guilty of, struggle with just as much, and often denying other important truths. Think of the situation that are very similar to what's usually described in the Friends and Family forums. Why do people keep holding onto abusers, hopeless cases, on and on and on? Isn't it because we often see ourselves (at least parts) in them and in their patterns? Sometimes want them to be so honest and work on everything effectively, as a projected desire for ourselves more?
I think it's useful to ask the question "why them", when we support particular people, even sometimes beyond what seems reasonable, helpful, useful, or even seen. I think exploring these internal motives, interpersonal relations and preferences can lead to at least some insight and development, even if the biggest elephant in the room (actual drinking/drugging) is not yet resolved. I think it's possible to work on both, or all of that, simultaneously... work on various and all domains of honesty, not focusing on someone else to change primarily, more on why I want them to change so much?
Why does someone feel so driven, committed, even obsessed, to relate to and "save" someone specific? Or certain types of addicts? I don't know... personally, for me, it usually occurs when I sense (correctly or via projection) in someone else that I am also just as guilty of, struggle with just as much, and often denying other important truths. Think of the situation that are very similar to what's usually described in the Friends and Family forums. Why do people keep holding onto abusers, hopeless cases, on and on and on? Isn't it because we often see ourselves (at least parts) in them and in their patterns? Sometimes want them to be so honest and work on everything effectively, as a projected desire for ourselves more?
I think it's useful to ask the question "why them", when we support particular people, even sometimes beyond what seems reasonable, helpful, useful, or even seen. I think exploring these internal motives, interpersonal relations and preferences can lead to at least some insight and development, even if the biggest elephant in the room (actual drinking/drugging) is not yet resolved. I think it's possible to work on both, or all of that, simultaneously... work on various and all domains of honesty, not focusing on someone else to change primarily, more on why I want them to change so much?
Life Goes On
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 6,069
When I went to rehab 16 months ago, it was in large part because I came here to be honest. Not just to report it like I was a little kid going to confession, but to bare my soul and get the support that I desperately needed during that crisis. People here rallied around me, understood where I was, virtually wiped my tears, showed up at all hours to virtually hold my hand, and prodded me gently to get help. I was honest, you all were compassionate, caring, and 100% in alignment in your mission to help me. At least how that's how I remember it, and for that I will be eternally grateful.
I think that honesty is absolutely the best thing for the person who suffers.
It's perception that's the trick, right?
I think there's an awful lot tied up in how or whether a person who is actively drinking can be honest here. It's not like people posting on a sober website are here to get away with their addictions, right? (Well, I guess there may be some, but nothing is going to help those folks until they change their minds.) Maybe I can't be honest because I can't stand the shame I will feel in telling you I screwed up again. Maybe I can't be honest because I am afraid you will confirm that I am as much of a loser as I fear I am. Maybe I'm literally being as honest as I can be right now. Maybe I'm so twisted around that I don't even know if I'm being honest with myself.
There was another site where I participated quite a number of years back. On that site, there was a separate thread for people with less than a week sober. Some folks would report again and again that they'd "slipped" again. And people would rally round, "It's ok! I know your life is tough, pookie. Just dust yourself off and give it another go!" I got to the point where I realized this approach wasn't helping me at all -it was just giving me a safe place where I could report that I drank again. That mollycoddling was not the type of reinforcement I needed, but perhaps it was helpful to others.
On the other hand, "tough love" such as I experienced here and in many other places from time-to-time isn't helpful to me either. That feels like an assault. To me. Maybe that type of reinforcement is helpful to others who are outfitted with skin that's much thicker than mine.
I believe the best support we can provide is to encourage honesty and to discourage rationalizations, excuses, or back doors. That can be done with compassion and understanding, I think. Well, I know because I've seen it from the likes of Dee and many others here. And I thank you for it.
O
I think that honesty is absolutely the best thing for the person who suffers.
It's perception that's the trick, right?
I think there's an awful lot tied up in how or whether a person who is actively drinking can be honest here. It's not like people posting on a sober website are here to get away with their addictions, right? (Well, I guess there may be some, but nothing is going to help those folks until they change their minds.) Maybe I can't be honest because I can't stand the shame I will feel in telling you I screwed up again. Maybe I can't be honest because I am afraid you will confirm that I am as much of a loser as I fear I am. Maybe I'm literally being as honest as I can be right now. Maybe I'm so twisted around that I don't even know if I'm being honest with myself.
There was another site where I participated quite a number of years back. On that site, there was a separate thread for people with less than a week sober. Some folks would report again and again that they'd "slipped" again. And people would rally round, "It's ok! I know your life is tough, pookie. Just dust yourself off and give it another go!" I got to the point where I realized this approach wasn't helping me at all -it was just giving me a safe place where I could report that I drank again. That mollycoddling was not the type of reinforcement I needed, but perhaps it was helpful to others.
On the other hand, "tough love" such as I experienced here and in many other places from time-to-time isn't helpful to me either. That feels like an assault. To me. Maybe that type of reinforcement is helpful to others who are outfitted with skin that's much thicker than mine.
I believe the best support we can provide is to encourage honesty and to discourage rationalizations, excuses, or back doors. That can be done with compassion and understanding, I think. Well, I know because I've seen it from the likes of Dee and many others here. And I thank you for it.
O
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,429
I understand the “mission” of SR as something that used to be stated quite often—to share “experience, strength, hope” and in that way, we both support others and support ourselves. I remember several threads where posters were encouraged not to tell another drinker what to do, or how to solve their problem, but to share their own experience with a common issue and how it harmed / resolved / or whatever outcome in their own situation, so a kind of indirect map was collaboratively built on a thread to allow the OP a sense of the landscape of choices they had in their own situation.
I am not the best at this—I often overstep and do give advice or suggestions. I really try to frame such advice within the context of my own experience, but I often “tell” instead of “show”. I do try to be honest when I feel someone is using BS or in denial, but I don’t like to do so unkindly—not everyone responds to tough love, as O states, and since we only get such limited input from people who are often in crisis, hardazz can do more harm than good.
I have posted in the past when drinking and not confessed to it at the time, but I no longer do so, and I now also no longer fail to tell the truth when I have relapsed instead of just not mentioning it. That has been a very important step in my recovery toolbox, and I know it has helped me do better and also to get excellent input from many people here who respond to my truth instead of my cover-up.
SR is a recovery website, and stopping drinking is the mission statement. Many are in various stages on that journey, and moving backwards and forwards in that goal as I have over the years. I love that this is the purpose—I would not stay in a virtual community that talked about moderation or getting back “in control” of drinking because I know from my own experience this isn’t possible for people in our stage of addiction—to encourage anything but abstinence or keep telling someone it is OK if they keep relapsing not helpful either. However, you can speak with firmness and strength without using shame, aggression, fear, or personal attacks. That only discourages honesty, especially from the many lurkers who read but fear to share their own struggles.
I think Dee’s original point was honesty about drinking, as “confessed” here on SR, may be a helpful stage in the journey but it sometimes can stall some of us in our addiction. I have been a serial relapser and have stalled myself many times, and it seems that beyond telling on yourself, you need to do a careful forensic analysis on why it happened, and how you can sharpen your tools, add more, and do better. Listening to the input of others in this community has been an essential source of insight in making a better plan, being more aware, and accepting when another addict calls you on your BS. Done with compassion, it helps the teller, the hearer, the active community, and the huge silent community who recognize themselves in our spoken stories.
I think in closing this novella, I want to emphasize that the time we take to post and support others helps us grow in our own recovery. It feels good when we see another person get a handle on recovery and soar. I feel less alone when I see a poster’s experience that is resonant to my own, and I feel downright happy when something I have shared is acknowledged as helpful by someone—often not the original OP.
I receive far more than I give, and treating members’ time and focus with respect, when they take the time to try and help me in my posted struggle, is how I can say thank you, though it doesn’t begin to cover all the benefits I have accrued from our SR community. . .
I am not the best at this—I often overstep and do give advice or suggestions. I really try to frame such advice within the context of my own experience, but I often “tell” instead of “show”. I do try to be honest when I feel someone is using BS or in denial, but I don’t like to do so unkindly—not everyone responds to tough love, as O states, and since we only get such limited input from people who are often in crisis, hardazz can do more harm than good.
I have posted in the past when drinking and not confessed to it at the time, but I no longer do so, and I now also no longer fail to tell the truth when I have relapsed instead of just not mentioning it. That has been a very important step in my recovery toolbox, and I know it has helped me do better and also to get excellent input from many people here who respond to my truth instead of my cover-up.
SR is a recovery website, and stopping drinking is the mission statement. Many are in various stages on that journey, and moving backwards and forwards in that goal as I have over the years. I love that this is the purpose—I would not stay in a virtual community that talked about moderation or getting back “in control” of drinking because I know from my own experience this isn’t possible for people in our stage of addiction—to encourage anything but abstinence or keep telling someone it is OK if they keep relapsing not helpful either. However, you can speak with firmness and strength without using shame, aggression, fear, or personal attacks. That only discourages honesty, especially from the many lurkers who read but fear to share their own struggles.
I think Dee’s original point was honesty about drinking, as “confessed” here on SR, may be a helpful stage in the journey but it sometimes can stall some of us in our addiction. I have been a serial relapser and have stalled myself many times, and it seems that beyond telling on yourself, you need to do a careful forensic analysis on why it happened, and how you can sharpen your tools, add more, and do better. Listening to the input of others in this community has been an essential source of insight in making a better plan, being more aware, and accepting when another addict calls you on your BS. Done with compassion, it helps the teller, the hearer, the active community, and the huge silent community who recognize themselves in our spoken stories.
I think in closing this novella, I want to emphasize that the time we take to post and support others helps us grow in our own recovery. It feels good when we see another person get a handle on recovery and soar. I feel less alone when I see a poster’s experience that is resonant to my own, and I feel downright happy when something I have shared is acknowledged as helpful by someone—often not the original OP.
I receive far more than I give, and treating members’ time and focus with respect, when they take the time to try and help me in my posted struggle, is how I can say thank you, though it doesn’t begin to cover all the benefits I have accrued from our SR community. . .
Life Goes On
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 6,069
Originally Posted by Aellyce 
I really believe the desire (sometimes very strong, often obsessional) to "save" or correct someone struggling is driven by a phenomenon many psychologists describe as transference, especially narcissistic transference (look up explanations online, huge interesting literature).
I think it's useful to ask the question "why them", when we support particular people, even sometimes beyond what seems reasonable, helpful, useful, or even seen. I think exploring these internal motives, interpersonal relations and preferences can lead to at least some insight and development, even if the biggest elephant in the room (actual drinking/drugging) is not yet resolved. I think it's possible to work on both, or all of that, simultaneously... work on various and all domains of honesty, not focusing on someone else to change primarily, more on why I want them to change so much?
I think it's useful to ask the question "why them", when we support particular people, even sometimes beyond what seems reasonable, helpful, useful, or even seen. I think exploring these internal motives, interpersonal relations and preferences can lead to at least some insight and development, even if the biggest elephant in the room (actual drinking/drugging) is not yet resolved. I think it's possible to work on both, or all of that, simultaneously... work on various and all domains of honesty, not focusing on someone else to change primarily, more on why I want them to change so much?
You may think I'm obsessed with you (I don't think you do, but just for argument's sake), but in fact my reason for keeping up with you (the generic 'you') might be that something within you resonates with me. Maybe I think I "see" something in you that reminds me of myself, and having successfully stopped, really wants to help you too. Not to stroke my own ego or pin another badge on my wall, but because I sincerely feel an affinity to you as a person that is suffering. (And I do. Feel an affinity and want to help particular people.)
Another person can't determine whether I am or am not obsessed. What they can determine is that they feel attacked, uncomfortable, offended. It is not honest (authentic) to respond to what feels bad by tossing about general terms that sound scientific but only serve to counterattack (counter-transfer?). To me, honesty means I talk/reflect/write about how it feels to be singled out, why that is so troubling - what dis-ease is that bringing up for me? Why do I have to fight this thing that's bothering me so?
Who determines what seems reasonable? Certainly, we can understand what seems helpful or maybe completely over the line and say so - I've done it plenty of times! At some point, though, I came to understand that it is much more fulfilling and useful to me to understand what is happening inside of me in relation to others - other people, other habitats, other sounds, other cicadas!
Once I understood that not everything was about me (mostly it's not), I was able to develop tolerance and acceptance for myself. And that in turn changed my relationships in a meaningful way. One of the best gifts of all of this sobriety jazz is that it is so much easier for me to just be honest and work out from there.
O
Administrator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,442
I’m glad I got my meaning across in the end
My post was an open letter if you like.
I think Dusty and Dropsie, among others, teased out what I really wanted to say - this is a place where people should feel safe to be *fully* honest, not just about drinking but about what should come next for permanent recovery....
I don’t think the average SR member is a manipulative psychopath...quite the opposite. But I was pretty skilled at controlling the narrative so that I could drink more. Sometime I was aware of that and other times not.
I agree a focus on the confession rather than Part B is not helpful, Aellyce.
Definitely one size does not fit all too...I still try to respond to each poster in a way I think will be most effective.
I have always said tough love without the love is pretty much some random person on the internet ranting at you.
You need a relationship with people before you can work out what is the right approach.
I was so scared when I got here I would have bolted at the first hint of challenge, so I remember that and post accordingly....but I also needed a place where people would call me on my BS.
It’s a really delicate dance sometimes.
Sometimes hugs sometimes steel, sometimes, eventually, a little of both...but If I ever challenged anyone and it was too soon or the wrong tack, I will apologise for that.
Like Hawkeye suggests we can tell or show and I try to go for the latter but have done the former.
Finally, I’d like not to focus on individual posters here - to my mind that’s not productive... for me, this was not meant to be the thread equivalent of putting ppl in the stocks, or a discussion centered on particular posters.
like I said I’m not about shaming anyone. Personally I’ll continue to post to and support anyone who wants my help.
I remember the shame of drinking again week after week for 15 years in my case. I’m all about others avoiding that if they can, with the help of this website and other places and helpmates.
Thanks for this discussion guys - it’s morphed a little from honesty but it’s none the worse for that...in fact I prefer the what can we do focus
D
My post was an open letter if you like.
I think Dusty and Dropsie, among others, teased out what I really wanted to say - this is a place where people should feel safe to be *fully* honest, not just about drinking but about what should come next for permanent recovery....
I don’t think the average SR member is a manipulative psychopath...quite the opposite. But I was pretty skilled at controlling the narrative so that I could drink more. Sometime I was aware of that and other times not.
I agree a focus on the confession rather than Part B is not helpful, Aellyce.
Definitely one size does not fit all too...I still try to respond to each poster in a way I think will be most effective.
I have always said tough love without the love is pretty much some random person on the internet ranting at you.
You need a relationship with people before you can work out what is the right approach.
I was so scared when I got here I would have bolted at the first hint of challenge, so I remember that and post accordingly....but I also needed a place where people would call me on my BS.
It’s a really delicate dance sometimes.
Sometimes hugs sometimes steel, sometimes, eventually, a little of both...but If I ever challenged anyone and it was too soon or the wrong tack, I will apologise for that.
Like Hawkeye suggests we can tell or show and I try to go for the latter but have done the former.
Finally, I’d like not to focus on individual posters here - to my mind that’s not productive... for me, this was not meant to be the thread equivalent of putting ppl in the stocks, or a discussion centered on particular posters.
like I said I’m not about shaming anyone. Personally I’ll continue to post to and support anyone who wants my help.
I remember the shame of drinking again week after week for 15 years in my case. I’m all about others avoiding that if they can, with the help of this website and other places and helpmates.
Thanks for this discussion guys - it’s morphed a little from honesty but it’s none the worse for that...in fact I prefer the what can we do focus
D
Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,645
When I drank, I drank for every reason in the world and no reason at all. And there were always terrible consequences.
It only got better when I stopped drinking and 100% committed my most inner self to never touching alcohol again.
It never got better when I was satisfied with "I'll quit tomorrow" or "There, at least I admitted it." So this is the message I share with others.
It only got better when I stopped drinking and 100% committed my most inner self to never touching alcohol again.
It never got better when I was satisfied with "I'll quit tomorrow" or "There, at least I admitted it." So this is the message I share with others.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Big City
Posts: 3,895
Illuminating as per usual on this website. That you Dee for the thread.
Reading through responses, I am struck by just how intelligent, insightful and self-aware everyone is, in all different ways. We all sound smart and interesting, reflective, sensitive, wise AND YET we are all blubbering fools in the face of our addictions. (At least at times, I know many of us have slayed the beast/are slaying the beast/will slay the beast). It's remarkable, although it's certainly been said, how the brightest of us can succumb to wasting our lives, our potential, our time, everything on the altar of our chosen poison. It's really kind of amazing.
Reading through responses, I am struck by just how intelligent, insightful and self-aware everyone is, in all different ways. We all sound smart and interesting, reflective, sensitive, wise AND YET we are all blubbering fools in the face of our addictions. (At least at times, I know many of us have slayed the beast/are slaying the beast/will slay the beast). It's remarkable, although it's certainly been said, how the brightest of us can succumb to wasting our lives, our potential, our time, everything on the altar of our chosen poison. It's really kind of amazing.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
Originally Posted by Dropsie
Aellyce, Is it beyond the realm of your possible that maybe we just want to help. Imagine that.
Administrator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,442
Thats one of the reasons I encourage people to go back to the boards.
I don't mind PMs - they certainly have their place...but I'm under no illusions my one on one wisdom or intelligence is better than the collected wisdom and intelligence of this community.
Having said that, people can and do have all kinds of valid reasons, reasons unconnected with you, why they might appear to drop off or back away.
I've seen it in my University career, my musical career, and other places too.
We sometimes mistake the sliver of lives we see here for the entirely - and that can be a error.
D
I don't mind PMs - they certainly have their place...but I'm under no illusions my one on one wisdom or intelligence is better than the collected wisdom and intelligence of this community.
Having said that, people can and do have all kinds of valid reasons, reasons unconnected with you, why they might appear to drop off or back away.
I've seen it in my University career, my musical career, and other places too.
We sometimes mistake the sliver of lives we see here for the entirely - and that can be a error.
D
Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 172
Originally Posted by Boondock
It is perplexing I think of myself as a well rounded intelligent person with talents but when it comes to alcohol I'm a complete buffoon!!! A total numbskull !!! LOL .....
that.massive cringe feeling in the morning ("what did I do or say again? Too scared to look at phone etc) is a killer.....LOL
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