Honesty
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
I can comment on this because I'm definitely one of the offenders and glad to see such a relevant discussion for me. I can elaborate from the point of view of the dishonest person trying to get out of both the dishonesty and the drinking problem, at the pace of some sick, old turtle 
.
I've had three rounds of long threads in the last 6 or so months, typically starting very dishonest, with an evasive, misleading topic, then becoming suspicious so some people would take the plunge and call me out straight... I think I usually respond to that very well, that's when my intentions take a turn and I realize what's truly the point of what I'm doing and being here... either we talk about what is truly going on and try to come up with possible new ways of looking at it, better motivations and strategies to change, or it's totally useless and becomes just another one of the hundreds of cycles before. Sometimes I continue the distractions in a few more posts if I still drink, sometimes just feel a bit lost and go in circles for a while even when I'm sobered up, trying to find what could be better next steps. But in the end, those long threads of mine have always led to people offering new and, at least, some practical ways of looking at the larger picture, tailored to the kind of situation I am in, and a bunch of (at least small) new tweaks to try. There is, of course, always some projection-based "advice", which is not so relevant to my specific situation, but everyone just means well, shares their experiences, and tries to help. I feel that sometimes the self honesty fails at that point, when people consider the feedback as attack - this is not a problem for me personally, but very common I think. Anyway, at that point, I have usually stopped drinking and can re-read with more accurate perception, and pretty easily extract and synthesize what is the most relevant, useful and forward-looking for me from the pool of feedback I get. Then come up with a newer plan, or an adjusted one. From then on, the implementation becomes the most important and it's really down to me whether it succeeds, fails, or falters.
So I absolutely second challenging, and it works for me not only here but also in any area of my life. I always like support and advice that challenges my current views and methods, and people who are not afraid to do that. What I personally don't find helpful (especially when I'm stuck in an acute self-sabotaging cycle) is pure compassion or "you got this" type feedback with a tone suggesting I'm already on a good track when I have not even made the first step. It does not offer anything useful that I can try either to think or do differently, can even feel enabling. I also personally don't like when people say I should not be critical of myself (is the lying/rationalization better?), although this is a bit more complex/individual, because too direct criticism (either from self or others) can be further damaging for someone who has a lot of deep-seated, paralyzing self-esteem issues that are part of the main culprits perpetuating the addiction. It's not for me, I think this is part of why constructive criticism and challenge works for me. But when I try to give it to others, it often goes nowhere. Recently though, I have finally been getting a good dose of that here on SR, guess that's the advantage of having been here on SR for so long, people get a sense of my style even if not my actual reality. Even just comments when people openly say I'm utterly confusing and they just don't know what else to say and are not interested anymore, are very helpful. It gives me instant sense of some of the social consequences of my addiction and how I "manage" it, without having to experience it in more important domains of my real life again.
I don't think the challenging is effective for everyone though, and I personally see more cases here on the forum where it does not seem to go anywhere because people keep blaming their active addiction on others or circumstances/events, are not honest about those being triggers and not causes, become defensive when that is questioned, focus primarily on shame and hurt, then most others soften up because no one wants to destroy anyone else here. Then it never gets to a point to reach a more solution-oriented focus/discussion. It's hard to give any further direct suggestions to someone who does not express any openness and appreciation for it, I think in part even because it's not rewarding for the advisor. Not sure what you think about this Dee, and others.
The "confession" threads also often end in a lot of comments that continue digressing all over the map, focus more on relating to the rationalizations and circumstances, external events etc etc and not on what the person who is confessing the problem could do next to tackle it. Sometimes becomes more like a cafe conversation and pure venting. Then the initial honesty and intent gets buried and kind of lost. I personally think the confession-type honesty is important, but it's only a first, very small step. I now do that relatively easily when I want and am given even a tiny push, but still get stuck later and get back into some of the old, dishonest and distraction habits. The implementation of any recovery strategy requires the strongest and most consistent honesty for the addict to truly evaluate progress IMO, whether they do it on their own primarily, involve others in details, and everything in-between. I think the focus is often placed on the initial confession-type honesty and the most important kind does not develop or not far enough. Is this closer to what you tried to bring across Dee? Sorry about it being this long-winded, just give me a hint that an abstract discussion is welcomed...
.I've had three rounds of long threads in the last 6 or so months, typically starting very dishonest, with an evasive, misleading topic, then becoming suspicious so some people would take the plunge and call me out straight... I think I usually respond to that very well, that's when my intentions take a turn and I realize what's truly the point of what I'm doing and being here... either we talk about what is truly going on and try to come up with possible new ways of looking at it, better motivations and strategies to change, or it's totally useless and becomes just another one of the hundreds of cycles before. Sometimes I continue the distractions in a few more posts if I still drink, sometimes just feel a bit lost and go in circles for a while even when I'm sobered up, trying to find what could be better next steps. But in the end, those long threads of mine have always led to people offering new and, at least, some practical ways of looking at the larger picture, tailored to the kind of situation I am in, and a bunch of (at least small) new tweaks to try. There is, of course, always some projection-based "advice", which is not so relevant to my specific situation, but everyone just means well, shares their experiences, and tries to help. I feel that sometimes the self honesty fails at that point, when people consider the feedback as attack - this is not a problem for me personally, but very common I think. Anyway, at that point, I have usually stopped drinking and can re-read with more accurate perception, and pretty easily extract and synthesize what is the most relevant, useful and forward-looking for me from the pool of feedback I get. Then come up with a newer plan, or an adjusted one. From then on, the implementation becomes the most important and it's really down to me whether it succeeds, fails, or falters.
So I absolutely second challenging, and it works for me not only here but also in any area of my life. I always like support and advice that challenges my current views and methods, and people who are not afraid to do that. What I personally don't find helpful (especially when I'm stuck in an acute self-sabotaging cycle) is pure compassion or "you got this" type feedback with a tone suggesting I'm already on a good track when I have not even made the first step. It does not offer anything useful that I can try either to think or do differently, can even feel enabling. I also personally don't like when people say I should not be critical of myself (is the lying/rationalization better?), although this is a bit more complex/individual, because too direct criticism (either from self or others) can be further damaging for someone who has a lot of deep-seated, paralyzing self-esteem issues that are part of the main culprits perpetuating the addiction. It's not for me, I think this is part of why constructive criticism and challenge works for me. But when I try to give it to others, it often goes nowhere. Recently though, I have finally been getting a good dose of that here on SR, guess that's the advantage of having been here on SR for so long, people get a sense of my style even if not my actual reality. Even just comments when people openly say I'm utterly confusing and they just don't know what else to say and are not interested anymore, are very helpful. It gives me instant sense of some of the social consequences of my addiction and how I "manage" it, without having to experience it in more important domains of my real life again.
I don't think the challenging is effective for everyone though, and I personally see more cases here on the forum where it does not seem to go anywhere because people keep blaming their active addiction on others or circumstances/events, are not honest about those being triggers and not causes, become defensive when that is questioned, focus primarily on shame and hurt, then most others soften up because no one wants to destroy anyone else here. Then it never gets to a point to reach a more solution-oriented focus/discussion. It's hard to give any further direct suggestions to someone who does not express any openness and appreciation for it, I think in part even because it's not rewarding for the advisor. Not sure what you think about this Dee, and others.
The "confession" threads also often end in a lot of comments that continue digressing all over the map, focus more on relating to the rationalizations and circumstances, external events etc etc and not on what the person who is confessing the problem could do next to tackle it. Sometimes becomes more like a cafe conversation and pure venting. Then the initial honesty and intent gets buried and kind of lost. I personally think the confession-type honesty is important, but it's only a first, very small step. I now do that relatively easily when I want and am given even a tiny push, but still get stuck later and get back into some of the old, dishonest and distraction habits. The implementation of any recovery strategy requires the strongest and most consistent honesty for the addict to truly evaluate progress IMO, whether they do it on their own primarily, involve others in details, and everything in-between. I think the focus is often placed on the initial confession-type honesty and the most important kind does not develop or not far enough. Is this closer to what you tried to bring across Dee? Sorry about it being this long-winded, just give me a hint that an abstract discussion is welcomed...
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,748
Getting sober is real hard work.
When we are honest with ourselves about any situation we can then reach out in hopes to find a solution to the problem that is ailing us. We cannot find answers if we are lying to ourselves and then subsequently lying to others. I think people are as honest as they can be at any given moment.
Alcoholism/ addiction has so many layers to it and unraveling those layers seems daunting. It is the unraveling that takes us into recovery. Honestly, from my perspective, it was easy to stop using alcohol. When I say easy, I mean the initial phase of not using and getting through the physical withdrawal was a lot easier than the road ahead. The Mt. Everest climb with cinder blocks strapped to my back came next. That mountain contained all of the steps I had to take to get to a place of feeling freedom from my addiction. Those steps and the honesty I had to have with myself were monumental. Sometimes I had to stop and take a breather and say " Hey Guys, this is epically BRUTAL!" No exaggeration. It was a hard fought battle. The road of recovery is very interesting and it has its ups and downs. Its a beautiful road with lots of tools to utilize but we first have to be honest with who and what and how....... The nuts and bolts of it all!
When we are honest with ourselves about any situation we can then reach out in hopes to find a solution to the problem that is ailing us. We cannot find answers if we are lying to ourselves and then subsequently lying to others. I think people are as honest as they can be at any given moment.
Alcoholism/ addiction has so many layers to it and unraveling those layers seems daunting. It is the unraveling that takes us into recovery. Honestly, from my perspective, it was easy to stop using alcohol. When I say easy, I mean the initial phase of not using and getting through the physical withdrawal was a lot easier than the road ahead. The Mt. Everest climb with cinder blocks strapped to my back came next. That mountain contained all of the steps I had to take to get to a place of feeling freedom from my addiction. Those steps and the honesty I had to have with myself were monumental. Sometimes I had to stop and take a breather and say " Hey Guys, this is epically BRUTAL!" No exaggeration. It was a hard fought battle. The road of recovery is very interesting and it has its ups and downs. Its a beautiful road with lots of tools to utilize but we first have to be honest with who and what and how....... The nuts and bolts of it all!
Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,163
Thanks for raising this topic Dee. I am always amazed at how fundamentally dishonest addicts are -- whether we became dishonest to hide our addiction or whether the type of person who becomes addicted is more likely to also be dishonest is an open question. Even after so many years after stopping drinking, I myself find that I am often dishonest even when I don't need to be. -- its a habit. And a bad one.
Not The Way way, Just the way
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,413
Originally Posted by Aellyce 
I can comment on this because I'm definitely one of the offenders and glad to see such a relevant discussion for me. I can elaborate from the point of view of the dishonest person trying to get out of both the dishonesty and the drinking problem, at the pace of some sick, old turtle .
.Ok, so right after your “I am one of the…”, It’s “I CAN ELABORATE FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF …”.
So, “some sick, old turtle.” is still acting like “some sick old turtle.” Or as I would call it, still acting like an amoral detached talking automaton.
I've had three rounds of long threads in the last 6 or so months, typically starting very dishonest, with an evasive, misleading topic, then becoming suspicious so some people would take the plunge,,,
and call me out straight...
I think I usually respond to that very well,
that's when my intentions take a turn and I realize what's truly the point of what I'm doing and being here... either we talk about what is truly going on and try to come up with possible new ways of looking at it, better motivations and strategies to change, or it's totally useless and becomes just another one of the hundreds of cycles before. Sometimes I continue the distractions in a few more posts if I still drink, sometimes just feel a bit lost and go in circles for a while even when I'm sobered up, trying to find what could be better next steps. But in the end, those long threads of mine have always led to people offering new and, at least, some practical ways of looking at the larger picture, tailored to the kind of situation I am in, and a bunch of (at least small) new tweaks to try. There is, of course, always some projection-based "advice", which is not so relevant to my specific situation, but everyone just means well, shares their experiences, and tries to help. I feel that sometimes the self honesty fails at that point, when people consider the feedback as attack - this is not a problem for me personally, but very common I think. Anyway, at that point, I have usually stopped drinking and can re-read with more accurate perception, and pretty easily extract and synthesize what is the most relevant, useful and forward-looking for me from the pool of feedback I get. Then come up with a newer plan, or an adjusted one. From then on, the implementation becomes the most important and it's really down to me whether it succeeds, fails, or falters.
So I absolutely second challenging, and it works for me not only here but also in any area of my life. I always like support and advice that challenges my current views and methods, and people who are not afraid to do that. What I personally don't find helpful (especially when I'm stuck in an acute self-sabotaging cycle) is pure compassion or "you got this" type feedback with a tone suggesting I'm already on a good track when I have not even made the first step. It does not offer anything useful that I can try either to think or do differently, can even feel enabling. I also personally don't like when people say I should not be critical of myself (is the lying/rationalization better?), although this is a bit more complex/individual, because too direct criticism (either from self or others) can be further damaging for someone who has a lot of deep-seated, paralyzing self-esteem issues that are part of the main culprits perpetuating the addiction. It's not for me, I think this is part of why constructive criticism and challenge works for me. But when I try to give it to others, it often goes nowhere. Recently though, I have finally been getting a good dose of that here on SR, guess that's the advantage of having been here on SR for so long, people get a sense of my style even if not my actual reality. Even just comments when people openly say I'm utterly confusing and they just don't know what else to say and are not interested anymore, are very helpful. It gives me instant sense of some of the social consequences of my addiction and how I "manage" it, without having to experience it in more important domains of my real life again.
I don't think the challenging is effective for everyone though, and I personally see more cases here on the forum where it does not seem to go anywhere because people keep blaming their active addiction on others or circumstances/events, are not honest about those being triggers and not causes, become defensive when that is questioned, focus primarily on shame and hurt, then most others soften up because no one wants to destroy anyone else here. Then it never gets to a point to reach a more solution-oriented focus/discussion. It's hard to give any further direct suggestions to someone who does not express any openness and appreciation for it, I think in part even because it's not rewarding for the advisor. Not sure what you think about this Dee, and others.
The "confession" threads also often end in a lot of comments that continue digressing all over the map, focus more on relating to the rationalizations and circumstances, external events etc etc and not on what the person who is confessing the problem could do next to tackle it. Sometimes becomes more like a cafe conversation and pure venting. Then the initial honesty and intent gets buried and kind of lost. I personally think the confession-type honesty is important, but it's only a first, very small step. I now do that relatively easily when I want and am given even a tiny push, but still get stuck later and get back into some of the old, dishonest and distraction habits. The implementation of any recovery strategy requires the strongest and most consistent honesty for the addict to truly evaluate progress IMO, whether they do it on their own primarily, involve others in details, and everything in-between. I think the focus is often placed on the initial confession-type honesty and the most important kind does not develop or not far enough. Is this closer to what you tried to bring across Dee? Sorry about it being this long-winded, just give me a hint that an abstract discussion is welcomed...
So I absolutely second challenging, and it works for me not only here but also in any area of my life. I always like support and advice that challenges my current views and methods, and people who are not afraid to do that. What I personally don't find helpful (especially when I'm stuck in an acute self-sabotaging cycle) is pure compassion or "you got this" type feedback with a tone suggesting I'm already on a good track when I have not even made the first step. It does not offer anything useful that I can try either to think or do differently, can even feel enabling. I also personally don't like when people say I should not be critical of myself (is the lying/rationalization better?), although this is a bit more complex/individual, because too direct criticism (either from self or others) can be further damaging for someone who has a lot of deep-seated, paralyzing self-esteem issues that are part of the main culprits perpetuating the addiction. It's not for me, I think this is part of why constructive criticism and challenge works for me. But when I try to give it to others, it often goes nowhere. Recently though, I have finally been getting a good dose of that here on SR, guess that's the advantage of having been here on SR for so long, people get a sense of my style even if not my actual reality. Even just comments when people openly say I'm utterly confusing and they just don't know what else to say and are not interested anymore, are very helpful. It gives me instant sense of some of the social consequences of my addiction and how I "manage" it, without having to experience it in more important domains of my real life again.
I don't think the challenging is effective for everyone though, and I personally see more cases here on the forum where it does not seem to go anywhere because people keep blaming their active addiction on others or circumstances/events, are not honest about those being triggers and not causes, become defensive when that is questioned, focus primarily on shame and hurt, then most others soften up because no one wants to destroy anyone else here. Then it never gets to a point to reach a more solution-oriented focus/discussion. It's hard to give any further direct suggestions to someone who does not express any openness and appreciation for it, I think in part even because it's not rewarding for the advisor. Not sure what you think about this Dee, and others.
The "confession" threads also often end in a lot of comments that continue digressing all over the map, focus more on relating to the rationalizations and circumstances, external events etc etc and not on what the person who is confessing the problem could do next to tackle it. Sometimes becomes more like a cafe conversation and pure venting. Then the initial honesty and intent gets buried and kind of lost. I personally think the confession-type honesty is important, but it's only a first, very small step. I now do that relatively easily when I want and am given even a tiny push, but still get stuck later and get back into some of the old, dishonest and distraction habits. The implementation of any recovery strategy requires the strongest and most consistent honesty for the addict to truly evaluate progress IMO, whether they do it on their own primarily, involve others in details, and everything in-between. I think the focus is often placed on the initial confession-type honesty and the most important kind does not develop or not far enough. Is this closer to what you tried to bring across Dee? Sorry about it being this long-winded, just give me a hint that an abstract discussion is welcomed...
GT
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
Originally Posted by Dropsie
Thanks for raising this topic Dee. I am always amazed at how fundamentally dishonest addicts are -- whether we became dishonest to hide our addiction or whether the type of person who becomes addicted is more likely to also be dishonest is an open question. Even after so many years after stopping drinking, I myself find that I am often dishonest even when I don't need to be. -- its a habit. And a bad one.
So, in my case at least, it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem, but there was definitely a lot of dishonesty, hiding, all sorts of secrecy and "strategy to get what I want" before I even tasted alcohol for the first time. Ironically, I've found very early on domains in my life (mostly professional) where the game-playing really pays off and plenty of others even praise me for doing it well, seek my advice on how to do it well, even pay me for such "strategical" advice (in consulting). So it's a bit hard to break the cycle in this way and often very challenging to separate those professional strategies leading to success from similar "strategies" in my personal life that keeps leading to failures and running in circles, even this dead-end race with the addiction. For anyone who relates and wants to do some deep psychological exploration once they have sobered up, I think this area is very worthwhile both to investigate and to improve. I've looked at this about myself before but obviously not enough, and not in ways that would lead to much better outcomes.
GT - thanks for your response as always. The discussion on this thread is not meant to be about me though, I am just one example and wanted to use it as an example, one version. I think there are many versions of it. I was trying to highlight that simply being honest about drinking or not drinking, even if it's 100% truthful at any given time, leads nowhere if there is no further, truthful action to follow up the recovery from both dishonesty and drinking, in a consistent manner. In any case, I think I've said what I wanted and will get out of this thread because I have enough experience on how I can lead a bunch of others into the woods that become completely irrelevant and useless cycles (what I said earlier), and not my intention now.
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Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,077
I think on this site as it is an aide to maintaining sobriety. If someone slips yet has a genuine desire to stop they should be honest about it. But if your blatantly using and being an impossible nuisance that's a whole different ballgame.
Not The Way way, Just the way
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,413
Originally Posted by Aellyce
Very much relate to this, Dropsie. For me, it started way before the addiction (in childhood). As an adult, I'm always generally much more honest while in a good phase of life, especially with some abstinence that feels satisfying, and it's (was) absolutely the worst while in a bender, or planning (so, your planning on planning them?) one. I think it's so unfortunate that many people in society sees alcohol as some kind of truth serum, and people saying things under the influence as especially open and honest. That's not honesty by any means IMO, it's just twisted, often irrelevant and useless disinhibition.
So, in my case at least, it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem, but there was definitely a lot of dishonesty, hiding, all sorts of secrecy and "strategy to get what I want" before I even tasted alcohol for the first time. Ironically, I've found very early on domains in my life (mostly professional) where the game-playing really pays off and plenty of others even praise me for doing it well, seek my advice on how to do it well, even pay me for such "strategical" advice (in consulting). So it's a bit hard to break the cycle in this way and often very challenging to separate those professional strategies leading to success from similar "strategies" in my personal life that keeps leading to failures and running in circles, even this dead-end race with the addiction. For anyone who relates and wants to do some deep psychological exploration once they have sobered up, I think this area is very worthwhile both to investigate and to improve. I've looked at this about myself before but obviously not enough, and not in ways that would lead to much better outcomes.
So, in my case at least, it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem, but there was definitely a lot of dishonesty, hiding, all sorts of secrecy and "strategy to get what I want" before I even tasted alcohol for the first time. Ironically, I've found very early on domains in my life (mostly professional) where the game-playing really pays off and plenty of others even praise me for doing it well, seek my advice on how to do it well, even pay me for such "strategical" advice (in consulting). So it's a bit hard to break the cycle in this way and often very challenging to separate those professional strategies leading to success from similar "strategies" in my personal life that keeps leading to failures and running in circles, even this dead-end race with the addiction. For anyone who relates and wants to do some deep psychological exploration once they have sobered up, I think this area is very worthwhile both to investigate and to improve. I've looked at this about myself before but obviously not enough, and not in ways that would lead to much better outcomes.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
GT - this particular thread is not about me in depth, let's please keep decent boundaries and give room to everything and everyone else, okay? If you want to obsess more and continue the discussion about me specifically, please post that on my thread, I will look at it and respond if I think it's helpful for me to do so. Thanks!
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Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 2,426
"I wondered whether an honesty that extended to confessions of drinking - but *doesn’t seem to go any further than that* - i.e. into actively seeking solutions - was entirely a good thing or not."
My opinion is that is definitely not a good thing. Challenging people who are actively using on SR or in any other live or online forum is delicate sometimes. I often hesitate to do that because I do want people to tell us where they are at, and in the past I have challenged people in ways that turn out to be not helpful and supportive. That is totally on me though, and nobody else. One person on SR a few months back said I was the reason she drank again for a month and that kept me up for a few nights.
I think you are spot on Dee, as you usually are. The best thing we can do for anyone is to move them towards sobriety and a healthy recovery. My only hesitation to carry out the very best mission we can possibly carry out here on SR is down to my own inadequacies in communicating, nothing more. If my sense tells me that a person just needs some company right now, I might be ok with leaving it at that if I think my dunder-headed words might make things worse.
My opinion is that is definitely not a good thing. Challenging people who are actively using on SR or in any other live or online forum is delicate sometimes. I often hesitate to do that because I do want people to tell us where they are at, and in the past I have challenged people in ways that turn out to be not helpful and supportive. That is totally on me though, and nobody else. One person on SR a few months back said I was the reason she drank again for a month and that kept me up for a few nights.
I think you are spot on Dee, as you usually are. The best thing we can do for anyone is to move them towards sobriety and a healthy recovery. My only hesitation to carry out the very best mission we can possibly carry out here on SR is down to my own inadequacies in communicating, nothing more. If my sense tells me that a person just needs some company right now, I might be ok with leaving it at that if I think my dunder-headed words might make things worse.
Hangovers Suck!
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Southeastern U.S.
Posts: 176
Originally Posted by Dee74
Honesty's important. Its fundamental. I couldn't get sober until I was honest with myself and stopped lying to everyone else. D
Originally Posted by Rar
Speaking for myself, i was always ashamed to return and report another failure.
I came here 13 years ago after making the choice to drink again after 3.5+ years sober. Didn't come back after I decided yet again to resume drinking. Stayed gone for 13 years until I finally decided I was done drinking for good. I didn't want to waste anyone's time who might try to help me when I knew I wasn't ready.
Not The Way way, Just the way
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,413
Originally Posted by Aellyce
GT - this particular thread is not about me in depth, let's please keep decent boundaries and give room to everything and everyone else, okay? If you want to obsess more and continue the discussion about me specifically, please post that on my thread, I will look at it and respond if I think it's helpful for me to do so. Thanks!
Can you understand how what I have said might NOT be outside “decent boundaries”; and NOT “obsess”ing?
GT
PS, There is a “remove thanks” button in case you do not want to appear confusing.
Edit: I see you found it.
Not The Way way, Just the way
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,413
Here’s an admission of drinking again that showed up yesterday in an OP.
“I will mention, that I relapsed yesterday (alcohol) and it…”
This, to me, indicates no desire to abuse the SR forums and what their purpose is regarding drinking/drugging some more. But I also realize anyone in the world with internet access here can join and post, so, of course there will be many various motivations for what and why people post - motivations that may never be discoverable.
I appreciate Dee’s desire to make a point of honesty about drinking/drugging while posting at this time. Maybe it should be emphasized on a more regular basis. Thanks.
“I will mention, that I relapsed yesterday (alcohol) and it…”
This, to me, indicates no desire to abuse the SR forums and what their purpose is regarding drinking/drugging some more. But I also realize anyone in the world with internet access here can join and post, so, of course there will be many various motivations for what and why people post - motivations that may never be discoverable.
I appreciate Dee’s desire to make a point of honesty about drinking/drugging while posting at this time. Maybe it should be emphasized on a more regular basis. Thanks.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,654
Originally Posted by GerandTwine
Your never drinking again is not an “outcome” that happens to you. It is a “willful pledge of permanent abstinence.” For two that are still here, Obladi and Fusion (finally) have professed to have done it without any evidence of dishonesty. Why don’t you do it, too?
Instead, I have reframed my current abstinence as 'I never drink now'. Which shortens the time-frame and feels more doable, like a mini 'I won't drink today'. Words are important to me and my current belief system. And I support that mindset through self-development, taking steps to revise core-beliefs that no longer serve me, delving into and reversing rationalisations, listening to my Authentic Self instead of my knee-jerk ego/inner-child, making gratitude lists and self-care - because I couldn't care less for myself when I drank.
Hope I haven't derailed Dee's wise OP, but your PM isn't accessible, Aellyce. You were honest when you mentioned you'd drank, Aellyce, and then you went on to explore the issue of regaining abstinence, and that's meritorious.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 25,373
Here's my take...worth what you pay for it:
If people aren't ready to quit drinking there is nothing I can say from a keyboard to change that.
However, when I do post and try to support or encourage someone who says they want to quit but then they continue month after month and year after year to keep drinking and keep posting - I don't see the point any more. I'd rather (like AA points out) help and support those who are ready. That's where I feel I can actually be of service, not servicing someone's delusions.
If people aren't ready to quit drinking there is nothing I can say from a keyboard to change that.
However, when I do post and try to support or encourage someone who says they want to quit but then they continue month after month and year after year to keep drinking and keep posting - I don't see the point any more. I'd rather (like AA points out) help and support those who are ready. That's where I feel I can actually be of service, not servicing someone's delusions.
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Florida., USA
Posts: 3,252
Originally Posted by biminiblue
Here's my take...worth what you pay for it:
If people aren't ready to quit drinking there is nothing I can say from a keyboard to change that.
However, when I do post and try to support or encourage someone who does want to quit and then they continue month after month and year after year to keep drinking and keep posting - I don't see the point any more. I'd rather (like AA points out) help and support those who are ready. That's where I feel I can actually be of service, not servicing someone's delusions.
If people aren't ready to quit drinking there is nothing I can say from a keyboard to change that.
However, when I do post and try to support or encourage someone who does want to quit and then they continue month after month and year after year to keep drinking and keep posting - I don't see the point any more. I'd rather (like AA points out) help and support those who are ready. That's where I feel I can actually be of service, not servicing someone's delusions.
‘Month after month, year after year’, sounds like me. (Sigh). I’ve been around since 2014.
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Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,163
Ok, so another 2 cents from me on the general topic.
Many people lie because they would rather lie than be vulnerable, shame makes this worse. At some point the lying becomes a habit.
For me, when I was little I hated being vulnerable and if needed I lied to avoid that. The shame of drinking compounded that and lying became second nature including to myself.
Now I do not drink, but I still hate being vulnerable and lying is a habit, not big lies mind you, but the little ones get you too, because they lead to guilt, which leads to shame and it becomes a cycle.
Never really thought this through before. So, in the same way I stopped drinking and will never change my mind - today I stop lying and I will never change my mind. Wow, that feels like when I really decided to stop drinking, that nervous feeling when I say and I will never change my mind -- must be the right thing to do.
Thanks Dee.
Many people lie because they would rather lie than be vulnerable, shame makes this worse. At some point the lying becomes a habit.
For me, when I was little I hated being vulnerable and if needed I lied to avoid that. The shame of drinking compounded that and lying became second nature including to myself.
Now I do not drink, but I still hate being vulnerable and lying is a habit, not big lies mind you, but the little ones get you too, because they lead to guilt, which leads to shame and it becomes a cycle.
Never really thought this through before. So, in the same way I stopped drinking and will never change my mind - today I stop lying and I will never change my mind. Wow, that feels like when I really decided to stop drinking, that nervous feeling when I say and I will never change my mind -- must be the right thing to do.
Thanks Dee.
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Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: London
Posts: 333
You are right, until we get honest with ourselves we won't be able to gain much ground. Unfortunately there is no measuring stick to tell us when an individual will, if ever, make the switch though and until they do i would rather they look after themselves and get some support no matter if they are drinking all day everyday! I have seen many people come into AA stinking of booze for weeks on end until one day they come in and they don't, it does happen and a lot of people in the rooms don't like it as they complain it triggers them etc. We are in the business of helping the fellow addict/alcoholic whilst he is suffering so we can expect some dishonesty and active addiction.
It's the same as stopping any addiction, bad habit etc. Until you get serious about really changing the problem, it is pretty much paying lip service. I know I did it all my life. I don't know how many times, at the end of the night, i poured the remaining alcohol down the sink and crushed up the packets of cigarettes, swearing that i would never do it again lol. It must be 1000s seriously, and it's proper nuts, and people told me that it was nuts, but i knew better!
It's the same as stopping any addiction, bad habit etc. Until you get serious about really changing the problem, it is pretty much paying lip service. I know I did it all my life. I don't know how many times, at the end of the night, i poured the remaining alcohol down the sink and crushed up the packets of cigarettes, swearing that i would never do it again lol. It must be 1000s seriously, and it's proper nuts, and people told me that it was nuts, but i knew better!
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