My permanent sobriety is unshakeable, and yet
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Originally Posted by ScottFromWI 
While I do understand where you are coming from and did feel the same way to some extent early on LG, I would respectfully disagree with the statement above. I was a "Man in my 40's" for 10 years - 3 of them actively drinking and 7 of them sober. Over those 10 years I can honestly say that I built much better and long-lasting relationships with other men ( and women ) in the sober years. I think the main reason is because now I'm actually engaging in activities that stimulate my mind to learn more about myself and those around me, vs using alcohol as an "ice breaker" or as the main reason for being someplace. Yes, the mystique and fun of hanging out with all my buddies at the microbrew pub do still pop up from time to time, and certainly I can still go there and hang out if I wanted to, but if I am being totally honest with myself the reason I was there was the alcohol - not the people.
I would say that it is indeed HARDER to build relationships sober though - mostly because you have to face everything head on and accept all of your own insecurities and those of other people. Take a work relationship for example - it's certainly sometimes effective to go take a customer out golfing, get them drunk and buy them a great meal and then close the deal, but how does that frame the client relationship moving forward?
In any case, I do understand that this started off as basically a rant, and we all need to do that from time to time. But I would also look back at your statement above and think about how you are framing things. And remember that the majority of people do indeed to about their daily lives happily and successfully without drinking to excess, sometimes not at all.
I would say that it is indeed HARDER to build relationships sober though - mostly because you have to face everything head on and accept all of your own insecurities and those of other people. Take a work relationship for example - it's certainly sometimes effective to go take a customer out golfing, get them drunk and buy them a great meal and then close the deal, but how does that frame the client relationship moving forward?
In any case, I do understand that this started off as basically a rant, and we all need to do that from time to time. But I would also look back at your statement above and think about how you are framing things. And remember that the majority of people do indeed to about their daily lives happily and successfully without drinking to excess, sometimes not at all.
I don't know what you mean by "mystique" or your suggestion that I was saying at people don't go about their lives happily and successfully without drinking to excess. It's such a straw man argument to put words in my mouth or completely misconstrue what I said. In fact I am an example of a happy and successful sober person - I am happier and more successful sober than I ever was when I was drinking.
I'm merely saying that it is somewhat difficult to make male friends in my social circles as someone who doesn't drink. This conversation has determined me to go to a couple AA meetings - not for the support in not drinking, but to meet some people who are in my shoes. I suppose that's a nice remedy to this situation.
I'm not sure what it was in my post that struck a nerve. My post was expressing what some, not all, of us go through. Social pressures, social life, the norms around alcohol, the feeling of being left out - it's not the end of the world to experience this, though it does have merit and has been on my mind. And the worst thing to me is to downplay it, to suggest that because I feel this way somehow I'm misconstruing how the majority of people live their lives. I'm not misframing this. It's my experience. Perhaps rather than me looking at my post, you should examine your reaction to mine.
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Originally Posted by Scd619x
There is quite a famous guy here in the UK called Frank Skinner, he's well known for quitting drinking decades ago. I saw a documentary a couple of months ago, which i wish i had seen years ago where Frank said that after stopping drinking his social life has never recovered. If someone had just put it that simply i might have stopped banging that drum in sobriety and got a hobby or two earlier!
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Wow, lessgravity. That was a serious over-reaction to Scott's post.
Is something else going on with you right now? I didn't take his post that way at all, I took it as speaking from a place of caring and concern and offering an alternate way to look at your post/feelings. Some of us feel like you're spinning this in a concerning way, and that last post of yours kind of confirms that even if you don't see it.
Problem is, this type of thread from you and the whole FOMO thing is a pattern from the past but this time seems like there's some mounting pressure you feel to drink.
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
(yes, I know you're a man)
Don't shoot the messenger, takes one to know one.
Is something else going on with you right now? I didn't take his post that way at all, I took it as speaking from a place of caring and concern and offering an alternate way to look at your post/feelings. Some of us feel like you're spinning this in a concerning way, and that last post of yours kind of confirms that even if you don't see it.
Problem is, this type of thread from you and the whole FOMO thing is a pattern from the past but this time seems like there's some mounting pressure you feel to drink.
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
(yes, I know you're a man)
Don't shoot the messenger, takes one to know one.
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Less, I was wondering about the "big city" and just saw in a post of yours from last year where you live, I didn't remember before I checked the old thread where I also posted... is it still the same? If yes, oh my... you can socialize in any way you want here (I live in the same city), find and do anything and anyone your imagination is able to come up with, if you make just a little effort and are open to trying new things. Okay, not so much during the past year or so, but things are opening up more and more and will continue. I can't imagine any place that would offer more opportunities to have any kind of social life one can imagine. We also just have the most beautiful spring, I personally can't get enough of simply going out to walk, including watching people, and can very easy strike up a random conversation whenever, just need to be open to it or initiate. It's hard to imagine why one would believe drinking is necessary in this environment to have a satisfying social life and any kind of friends, male or whatever gender... unless drinking is indeed what you desire to do deep down for yourself, and this social thing is somehow a mental cover, like some others speculate?
It reminds me a bit of a post I made a few days ago about Euphoric Recall... check it out if you haven't seen it yet, people said many interesting things. If that is what you are experiencing by any chance, it's always good to recognize that the conscious thought process and feelings associated with it in the moment might be quite distorted and/or lacking some very important parts of the whole reality. I think people experience that even with many years or decades of sobriety, and it can indeed be a dangerous thing to entertain and seek validation for.
It reminds me a bit of a post I made a few days ago about Euphoric Recall... check it out if you haven't seen it yet, people said many interesting things. If that is what you are experiencing by any chance, it's always good to recognize that the conscious thought process and feelings associated with it in the moment might be quite distorted and/or lacking some very important parts of the whole reality. I think people experience that even with many years or decades of sobriety, and it can indeed be a dangerous thing to entertain and seek validation for.
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I too am wondering is there’s something else going on, cos you’ve reacted a few times in this thread like you’re being personally attacked Less - like the quality of your recovery is being attacked or something.
Scott’s post seemed quite reasonable to me. We don’t always go by dictionaries. Rant or vent are words used interchangeably these days on message boards, surely?
I’m not worried about you logging off and drinking LG - but I am worried about you being miserable angry and maybe even bitter in years to come.
We all know ex drinkers like that.
I have relationships with other men that are not predicated on a shared consumption of alcohol. Those are the only deep male friendships I have these days. The rest are acquaintances...ships in the night.
Like Scott and others here intimated, It’s possible to build solid sober friendships.
I dare say it’s possible to schmooze with clients etc sober too as it’s a statistical impossibility that all lawyers drink.
If the life you’re living has a recurring sense of loss in it, however transient, you owe it to yourself to work through those feelings.
If on the other hand you’re happy with life and you’re justventing brain-dumping here that’s great..., but ease up on those of us up in the peanut gallery, man.
We’re just trying to help
D
Scott’s post seemed quite reasonable to me. We don’t always go by dictionaries. Rant or vent are words used interchangeably these days on message boards, surely?
I’m not worried about you logging off and drinking LG - but I am worried about you being miserable angry and maybe even bitter in years to come.
We all know ex drinkers like that.
I have relationships with other men that are not predicated on a shared consumption of alcohol. Those are the only deep male friendships I have these days. The rest are acquaintances...ships in the night.
Like Scott and others here intimated, It’s possible to build solid sober friendships.
I dare say it’s possible to schmooze with clients etc sober too as it’s a statistical impossibility that all lawyers drink.
If the life you’re living has a recurring sense of loss in it, however transient, you owe it to yourself to work through those feelings.
If on the other hand you’re happy with life and you’re just
We’re just trying to help
D
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Originally Posted by lessgravity
Let me clarify something for you. I was and am not ranting. A rant is to speak or shout at length in a wild, impassioned way. I was expressing something that is an aspect of my sobriety that I find disheartening. I was "processing" in an open forum where I expected, and received, insightful, intelligent and through-provoking responses.
I don't know what you mean by "mystique" or your suggestion that I was saying at people don't go about their lives happily and successfully without drinking to excess. It's such a straw man argument to put words in my mouth or completely misconstrue what I said. In fact I am an example of a happy and successful sober person - I am happier and more successful sober than I ever was when I was drinking.
I'm merely saying that it is somewhat difficult to make male friends in my social circles as someone who doesn't drink. This conversation has determined me to go to a couple AA meetings - not for the support in not drinking, but to meet some people who are in my shoes. I suppose that's a nice remedy to this situation.
I'm not sure what it was in my post that struck a nerve. My post was expressing what some, not all, of us go through. Social pressures, social life, the norms around alcohol, the feeling of being left out - it's not the end of the world to experience this, though it does have merit and has been on my mind. And the worst thing to me is to downplay it, to suggest that because I feel this way somehow I'm misconstruing how the majority of people live their lives. I'm not misframing this. It's my experience. Perhaps rather than me looking at my post, you should examine your reaction to mine.
I don't know what you mean by "mystique" or your suggestion that I was saying at people don't go about their lives happily and successfully without drinking to excess. It's such a straw man argument to put words in my mouth or completely misconstrue what I said. In fact I am an example of a happy and successful sober person - I am happier and more successful sober than I ever was when I was drinking.
I'm merely saying that it is somewhat difficult to make male friends in my social circles as someone who doesn't drink. This conversation has determined me to go to a couple AA meetings - not for the support in not drinking, but to meet some people who are in my shoes. I suppose that's a nice remedy to this situation.
I'm not sure what it was in my post that struck a nerve. My post was expressing what some, not all, of us go through. Social pressures, social life, the norms around alcohol, the feeling of being left out - it's not the end of the world to experience this, though it does have merit and has been on my mind. And the worst thing to me is to downplay it, to suggest that because I feel this way somehow I'm misconstruing how the majority of people live their lives. I'm not misframing this. It's my experience. Perhaps rather than me looking at my post, you should examine your reaction to mine.
My contradiction was based on your statement that I quoted - I do not believe that alcohol is required for 40 year olds ( or any age ) to go about their lives - even their social lives. Certainly one can frame it that way or perceive it that way, but to suggest that it applies to all is not correct.
Not questioning your sobriety in any shape or form, not sure where you got that from.
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Perhaps I'm wrong, but this thread seems to have taken on a life of its own. An overreaction to a simple statement about LG's difficulty in forging friendships now that he is sober. More to do with social learning theory than anything else. Men and their machismo.
LG said he has no intention of drinking, and enjoys his life without alcohol. All I read from his post was a wistful remembering, and for suggestions on how to make new friends, find connectedness in a world were many men do use alcohol as substitute. Not all men; and sounds to me like these are the friends he is looking for. No more, no less.
They're out there LG. You're one of them, so stands to reason there must be more.
LG said he has no intention of drinking, and enjoys his life without alcohol. All I read from his post was a wistful remembering, and for suggestions on how to make new friends, find connectedness in a world were many men do use alcohol as substitute. Not all men; and sounds to me like these are the friends he is looking for. No more, no less.
They're out there LG. You're one of them, so stands to reason there must be more.
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Hi LG,
Your thread here strikes me as the same genre as Aellyce’s recent inquisitive threads. Intentionally slightly provocative of thought and expression. I don’t see anything here “troubling you” or anything getting in the way of your commitment to permanent abstinence. My interpretation of what you’re presenting is the last and final throes of your dying Beast of Booze trying to rationalize with you. I went through some similar awarenesses at around 3-4 years post quitting, too, although I did not connect those feelings with relations to others because I was NOT a social drinker in the final years. What I was starting to completely forget at that time was the persona that I used to become under the influence, the drunken me. It was a personality and mindset of its own with ways of acting and even ways of thinking and associating thoughts and actions that I realized I was in the process of losing forever simply by the passage of time. It was closely connected with some repetitious drinking dreams that were also fading away, and a gnawing background feeling that I wasn’t sure if I actually HAD remained abstinent following my last drink (because there had been so many fake hangover pledges preceding that).
Of course, when I brought myself to full consciousness of those dreams, sense of loss, and background haziness, I quickly smiled to myself and introspectively contemplated upon that weird sense of missing/losing something I once cherished and protected. It was a good grief.
You will eventually forget what those potential “male friends” are actually feeling while under the influence that seems to be a prerequisite for them to engage in some sort of bonding. When that happens, and since you didn’t say anything about befriending women, I bet you will probably see men and women more equally as regards to your potential to befriend people.
GT
Your thread here strikes me as the same genre as Aellyce’s recent inquisitive threads. Intentionally slightly provocative of thought and expression. I don’t see anything here “troubling you” or anything getting in the way of your commitment to permanent abstinence. My interpretation of what you’re presenting is the last and final throes of your dying Beast of Booze trying to rationalize with you. I went through some similar awarenesses at around 3-4 years post quitting, too, although I did not connect those feelings with relations to others because I was NOT a social drinker in the final years. What I was starting to completely forget at that time was the persona that I used to become under the influence, the drunken me. It was a personality and mindset of its own with ways of acting and even ways of thinking and associating thoughts and actions that I realized I was in the process of losing forever simply by the passage of time. It was closely connected with some repetitious drinking dreams that were also fading away, and a gnawing background feeling that I wasn’t sure if I actually HAD remained abstinent following my last drink (because there had been so many fake hangover pledges preceding that).
Of course, when I brought myself to full consciousness of those dreams, sense of loss, and background haziness, I quickly smiled to myself and introspectively contemplated upon that weird sense of missing/losing something I once cherished and protected. It was a good grief.
You will eventually forget what those potential “male friends” are actually feeling while under the influence that seems to be a prerequisite for them to engage in some sort of bonding. When that happens, and since you didn’t say anything about befriending women, I bet you will probably see men and women more equally as regards to your potential to befriend people.
GT
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I'm sorry guys but I'm not sorry and I also have plenty of "peace."
I don't know if I felt personally attacked, perhaps I did, but I certainly felt that my POV was being attacked. I don't need to repeat myself, think my posts in response speak for themselves.
Thank you Steely, perhaps your post was a more evenhanded way of responding to a few of the posts in here. Which, by the way, I still really appreciate all the responses. More food for thought. Here's to being sober.
I don't know if I felt personally attacked, perhaps I did, but I certainly felt that my POV was being attacked. I don't need to repeat myself, think my posts in response speak for themselves.
Thank you Steely, perhaps your post was a more evenhanded way of responding to a few of the posts in here. Which, by the way, I still really appreciate all the responses. More food for thought. Here's to being sober.
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No need to say sorry Less if you don't see or feel anything to be sorry about.. (IMO) there's no groupthink here.
Its my hope for everyone that we all can be happy and content in recovery and not feel a sense of loss.
But for me the thread's taken on a combative nature that I don't feel comfortable with, so unless I need to come back with Admin flak vest on, I'll just wish you well with it LG...
D
Its my hope for everyone that we all can be happy and content in recovery and not feel a sense of loss.
But for me the thread's taken on a combative nature that I don't feel comfortable with, so unless I need to come back with Admin flak vest on, I'll just wish you well with it LG...
D
Last edited by Dee74; 05-12-2021 at 11:03 PM. Reason: clarity
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This thread has produce a plethora of reactions for me. I have my reaction to the thread. I have my reaction to other people's reactions to the thread. I have my reaction to other people's reactions to reactions they imagine that other people are having. But the most bizarre is me thinking that I know how other people are reacting. My brain hurts! It is all good though as long as I use the experience to grow! :~)
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OK so good to see that Dee is human too, as I agree that that was a tad of an over reaction especially given Less' and Steely's last posts.
So here is how I see it from where I sit for what it is worth.
I agree with Steely's post, and I guess I would add that I feel it is important for people to be able to discuss things like what is in the POV without it being over analysed for hidden drinking thoughts, risks, etc etc. If not, we limit the discussion and there is no place to discuss these things. For me, it is important to have a place to be honest without it turning into a big deal.
Of course, there is always a balance and if there is a real call for concern, we should shout and that it a judgment call, totally get it. And words like "rant" can be used in different ways, which is hard to see in writing, like there would be in speech.
But my net net is that we might all benefit from sometimes just taking a post for what it is and not reading too much into it. This is a challenge every where these days living in a virtual world.
Nameste people.
So here is how I see it from where I sit for what it is worth.
I agree with Steely's post, and I guess I would add that I feel it is important for people to be able to discuss things like what is in the POV without it being over analysed for hidden drinking thoughts, risks, etc etc. If not, we limit the discussion and there is no place to discuss these things. For me, it is important to have a place to be honest without it turning into a big deal.
Of course, there is always a balance and if there is a real call for concern, we should shout and that it a judgment call, totally get it. And words like "rant" can be used in different ways, which is hard to see in writing, like there would be in speech.
But my net net is that we might all benefit from sometimes just taking a post for what it is and not reading too much into it. This is a challenge every where these days living in a virtual world.
Nameste people.
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my thought to the original post was if everyone you are around wasn't drinking but taking Kratom, would you feel the same?
Is it specifically booze that make it easier?
Or is it the substance taken that produces the bonding or ease of feeling part of the group?
If you no longer take Kratom, nevermind.
Is it specifically booze that make it easier?
Or is it the substance taken that produces the bonding or ease of feeling part of the group?
If you no longer take Kratom, nevermind.
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I can relate to some of the nostalgia, in the sense that I'm a natural introvert and alcohol allowed me to make faster (although more surface-level) connections with people, especially in a large group settings. Despite being very friendly, I hate large groups and drinking was a way for me to get past that initial discomfort. However, although it takes longer for me to connect to people now, I ultimately feel more connected to the group once the initial shyness is overcome and I haven't spent a stressful night trying to appear sober while also secretly drinking more than everyone else. I'm also more in tune with who I really want to spend time with. In other words (and I KNOW you're not saying this), but if I feel like I really want to drink around people, it's a sign that they may not really be my people.
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Originally Posted by lessgravity
Thank you to everyone who posted. Really appreciate the ability to express these thoughts, hear from others, and process them - the power of SR. I don't do AA and so this is the only place I can truly share among people who have the experience and knowledge that we all have.
But I have to address a couple things. I am not at all at risk of picking up a drink merely because I have these thoughts/feelings and have given them space here on SR. Perhaps for some people this way of thinking is beneficial but I find it akin to superstition or religious thought - don't let the sinful thoughts in, they might take over. I reject "you are in a dangerous zone, because you don't think you are" in relation to this topic. Actually I know, to my core, that I am not in a dangerous zone. I don't drink, never will drink and, truthfully, do not want to drink. Merely acknowledging that not everything is roses does not mean that somehow I might pick up again. Not going to happen.
In fact I think the opposite - I think acknowledging this frustration and actual experience in my life fortifies my sobriety. Pretending it's not an aspect of my life undermines my sobriety - it is a form of ignorance or untruth that I do not participate in. The simple fact is that I have met a few guys this year that, if I was still drinking, I believe I would have developed better friendships with. Does me acknowledging this mean that I think I should drink? Course not. Does it mean that I think it might be worth it to drink here and there to make some friends? No ****** way. It's just a reality and I can deal with it. It's the cost of doing business - it simply is what it is for me. And, along with tragedy, loss, success and anything else in life, it will never and can never make me drink again.
I have great friends, wonderful family, a dynamic and high stakes job. I take my fitness and health very seriously. I enjoy my life to an extent I never was able to when I was drinking. But that does not mean that there aren't things in my life that are kinda tough now and then that have to do with not drinking. That's it!
Love the posts - thank you SR, what a wonderful place.
But I have to address a couple things. I am not at all at risk of picking up a drink merely because I have these thoughts/feelings and have given them space here on SR. Perhaps for some people this way of thinking is beneficial but I find it akin to superstition or religious thought - don't let the sinful thoughts in, they might take over. I reject "you are in a dangerous zone, because you don't think you are" in relation to this topic. Actually I know, to my core, that I am not in a dangerous zone. I don't drink, never will drink and, truthfully, do not want to drink. Merely acknowledging that not everything is roses does not mean that somehow I might pick up again. Not going to happen.
In fact I think the opposite - I think acknowledging this frustration and actual experience in my life fortifies my sobriety. Pretending it's not an aspect of my life undermines my sobriety - it is a form of ignorance or untruth that I do not participate in. The simple fact is that I have met a few guys this year that, if I was still drinking, I believe I would have developed better friendships with. Does me acknowledging this mean that I think I should drink? Course not. Does it mean that I think it might be worth it to drink here and there to make some friends? No ****** way. It's just a reality and I can deal with it. It's the cost of doing business - it simply is what it is for me. And, along with tragedy, loss, success and anything else in life, it will never and can never make me drink again.
I have great friends, wonderful family, a dynamic and high stakes job. I take my fitness and health very seriously. I enjoy my life to an extent I never was able to when I was drinking. But that does not mean that there aren't things in my life that are kinda tough now and then that have to do with not drinking. That's it!
Love the posts - thank you SR, what a wonderful place.
It is a very insightful thread. There are many emotions that come up to surface when nostalgia towards alcohol is expressed. And yes, it can be that many of us are not wise or honest enough and need to practice a form of ignorance/untruth to survive those moments. It seems that you got it all sorted out (as you clearly and expressly stated on your opening post) and therefore did not need inputs like mine, telling you how you should assess your own situation.
It is still interesting to me to read my reaction to your thread and I am happy to have answered, even if this was only useful to me and I should learn to read more carefully and 'listen' rather than react from my own experience. It was well intentioned even if misdirected.
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Originally Posted by BackandScared
I am sorry my point of view was not useful to you. I acknowledge from the start that to me, feeling disconnected is a dangerous zone with alcohol. It is probably the case I was projecting my own fears.
It is a very insightful thread. There are many emotions that come up to surface when nostalgia towards alcohol is expressed. And yes, it can be that many of us are not wise or honest enough and need to practice a form of ignorance/untruth to survive those moments. It seems that you got it all sorted out (as you clearly and expressly stated on your opening post) and therefore did not need inputs like mine, telling you how you should assess your own situation.
It is still interesting to me to read my reaction to your thread and I am happy to have answered, even if this was only useful to me and I should learn to read more carefully and 'listen' rather than react from my own experience. It was well intentioned even if misdirected.
It is a very insightful thread. There are many emotions that come up to surface when nostalgia towards alcohol is expressed. And yes, it can be that many of us are not wise or honest enough and need to practice a form of ignorance/untruth to survive those moments. It seems that you got it all sorted out (as you clearly and expressly stated on your opening post) and therefore did not need inputs like mine, telling you how you should assess your own situation.
It is still interesting to me to read my reaction to your thread and I am happy to have answered, even if this was only useful to me and I should learn to read more carefully and 'listen' rather than react from my own experience. It was well intentioned even if misdirected.
But I also don't want to demean or criticize someone who uses your approach to stay sober. I get it. And if it prevents you from picking up, as mine does me, then that's all that matters. In my opinion, your post and my response reveal the value of this place. Thank you again for both posts. Here's to our sobriety.
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