Notices

Empathy

Old 04-22-2021, 05:15 PM
  # 1 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 648
Empathy

Recently I heard news that a person who works for a company I work with received his 4th DUI. Apparently he was driving home after being at the bar and got his truck stuck in a snowbank. I know who he is, said hi a few times, but I don't really know him - if you get what I mean. All in all a decent fellow from first impression and most accounts. Context - I work in the commercial construction industry - and I live in a state where booze is held in high regard by most. Double whammy in terms of social norms and booze.

Anywho. It's been on my mind now for a week or so. Very much brought me back to my own situation - now three years+ removed thank God. Viscerally so. At times I've felt the pit of despair in my stomach. I've had a few lucid dreams. And at times I can feel the raw anguish, loneliness, pain that I imagine he must be feeling - that I felt.

Empathy. It's a tricky thing. Very nuanced. I've been feeling a lot of it for him though. To the point that just about an hour ago I wondered if it would be appropriate for me to reach out to him. The thought went through my head that someone needs to tell him that if he makes the right decisions he's going to be ok. That it's going to suck bad for the next year or so but there is a light at the end of it all if he chooses to grab it. That he's not a monster or a piece of s*&$. That he'll do his time and punishment for his mistake and to let that be his punishment - appropriately so - but to not tear himself to pieces anymore than that. That he's going to need his self esteem intact. That how he feels about it all is secondary to how he needs to think and steel his resolve for what's coming. For many things... how we feel is irrelevant. What we do is everything. Feelings tend to flip flop like leaves in the wind. It's hard to trust them sometimes. (Not all the time, but often.)

I don't know his situation at home. I don't know if he has an inner circle of support or if he's surrounded by sheepul who may grind his sense of self into the dust in the name of 'love.' Probably a mix of both. I hope he has someone who can love him and talk straight with him. I hope he can hear.

The thing about empathy - it's being able to know what it's like in another persons shoes. To see it. It goes beyond sympathy. It's almost like wearing their situation as your own. And in that regard it's tricky - to not let it become a self-righteous thing or a virtual signal thing. To not fall into the trap of acting on empathetic feelings so that I make myself feel better about myself. I think it really needs to be selfless if acted on - if that's even possible.

I'm going to ask a couple of people I respect that know him better than I and know my own situation if they think it would be appropriate for me to reach out. I remember very clearly that one of the vivid perspectives my own situation brought about at the time was a keen realization that I don't know what someone is going through. The guy standing next to me (like me at the time) may be facing a load of pain and **** and doing everything he can to just white knuckle his way through without losing his s*&^. I determined to be less judgmental as a result. To be more helpful to people just because. I remember how much little things that people did for me at the time meant soooo much - like the insurance adjuster giving me a ride to inspect my totally wrecked vehicle so I didn't have to walk 2 hours to meet him...

I've lost some of that. Most of that if I'm honest. I've returned mostly to the humdrum self-centered existence I carried on before. Changed for sure - glad to be free of booze and all that for sure. But the meaningfulness of those little things, the awareness that someone may be going through hell, the ability to pause before judging - or not even judging but just being so damned caught up in my own day and own stuff that I get too busy to just stop and say, 'hey man, you need a hand with that?'

I'm not beating myself up over it. I think it's natural...and not all bad really. But as I continue to work on and make adjustments in my life I fear a bit that I've lost sight of maybe committing a little bit of my time to use my own experiences as a means to help others stuck in the middle of the ****. To empathize a bit, and act on it. I don't deny that I won't get something out of it - I do and I should. But damn, I remember when I was in the middle of the storm how much a brief email from someone who had 'been there done that' meant to me. Connectedness. A means for me to retain my humanity and not deconstruct my self esteem into complete mud.

We are, we were, not monsters. We're people, humans. We deserve to live the life we want to live. Hell, we receive the life we want to live. I'm starting to think the whole game is how capable am I of staying somewhat 'real' with myself, my expectations, and maintain a touch of responsibility over my impulses and underlying motivations. Those are questions that can only be discovered by the self, and by healthy self examination. Namely, can we choose to be capable and willing to be honest with ourselves? Because it's a choice, really, to be honest with yourself - even if what you decide to see scares the hell out of you.

Those that can empathize with our situations can certainly help us shift around the dirt - clean up the windows a bit for better perspectives, etc.. I wouldn't have made it without the 2-3 peeps who helped me with that, and without my own determination to open my eyes. I wonder if this guy has anyone to help him like that. It could make a big difference methinks.

Thanks for the opportunity to ramble. Not really asking for anything, just thought I'd share some of what's been floating around in my stream of consciousness.

Be well.

Best-

B
Buckley3 is offline  
Old 04-22-2021, 05:34 PM
  # 2 (permalink)  
Administrator
 
Dee74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,049
Just posting here can really help someone else Buckley - I think you are both very empathetic and helpful

D
Dee74 is offline  
Old 04-22-2021, 07:02 PM
  # 3 (permalink)  
Member
 
Wastinglife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,195
I remember when you first started posting 3 years or so ago, Buckley. You certainly seem to have found the blueprint for coming back from a rock-bottom. I'm sure your colleague could benefit from your insight. Not many people can empathize with him I'm sure.
Wastinglife is offline  
Old 04-22-2021, 07:53 PM
  # 4 (permalink)  
Member
 
Mizz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,748
I think you have the answer as to what you should do. Reach out. It doesn't have to be anything more than a "Hey, I've been exactly where you are and if you want a friend to speak with I am available."

Let him know you are there for him. We all need to be there for one another.

I like the way you think and keep thinking this way. Onwards and Upwards!



Mizz is offline  
Old 04-23-2021, 06:18 AM
  # 5 (permalink)  
Member
 
lessgravity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Big City
Posts: 3,893
What's up Buck! Great to see you here, as always. (I just posted my own 3 years sober thread - right here with you).

I don't know if I have anything directly to contribute to your post. It made me think and that was welcome this morning. More generally though it's exciting to me that we have our lives now to live on whatever terms we choose - rather than being caught in the brutal ugly cycle of drinking. I have my obstacles and patterns of thought that I finally can examine and deal with, or at least try. Thanks for the reminder to introspect a bit today. And thanks for being an example of what it means to overcome this nasty habit. Hope to see you here more often.
lessgravity is offline  
Old 04-23-2021, 02:26 PM
  # 6 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 648
Originally Posted by lessgravity View Post
What's up Buck! Great to see you here, as always. (I just posted my own 3 years sober thread - right here with you).

I don't know if I have anything directly to contribute to your post. It made me think and that was welcome this morning. More generally though it's exciting to me that we have our lives now to live on whatever terms we choose - rather than being caught in the brutal ugly cycle of drinking. I have my obstacles and patterns of thought that I finally can examine and deal with, or at least try. Thanks for the reminder to introspect a bit today. And thanks for being an example of what it means to overcome this nasty habit. Hope to see you here more often.
Hey man - always a pleasure! Reading your response and a thought struck me... sometimes when I look at certain obstacles and patterns of thought I'm carrying I decide to let go and accept that some of them aren't the best choices for me. Nothing major I think... but maybe just maybe I've grown at bit at not being too hard on myself too often and allowing myself to just accept who I am at times without beating the hell out of me. Interesting.

Hope you are well friend.

-B
Buckley3 is offline  
Old 04-25-2021, 06:53 AM
  # 7 (permalink)  
Blue Belt
 
D122y's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Soberville, USA
Posts: 4,174
If my heart was telling me to reach out I would.

I was very emotional for the first few years of my new born again forever non drinker ways.

I cried like a baby watching some dramas (in private).

These days, I tear up, but don't melt down.

I say awkward things, that are sometimes misunderstood, but I try. This happens at work and at home.

My coworker says to me....I didn't mean to make you mad... I say i am not mad at all, I am just communicating. I think some situations might have made me angry back in my drinking days, but now I can just talk without getting to reptile.

Awkward.

Follow your heart.

Thanks.
D122y is offline  
Old 04-25-2021, 07:49 AM
  # 8 (permalink)  
Member
 
Dropsie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,163
Buckley,

Cool to read your post today and I have been thinking a lot lately about the burden of being an overly empathetic person, which I am.

I thought your whole post nailed it, really, and I was especially drawn to this description, which is so accurate:
  • The thing about empathy - it's being able to know what it's like in another persons shoes. To see it. It goes beyond sympathy. It's almost like wearing their situation as your own.
For most of my life, I thought everyone did this, really. Only recently have a learned that this degree of empathy is rare, and can make life hard. It also comes with, at least in my case, very little empathy for myself. so a double whammy.

But I don't edit myself as much as you describe, at least not any more. Maybe its because I am a woman and old enough to care less than I used to.

So, I am with Mizz and others, reach out. Let him know you care and are there. The trick is to do it without emotional investment in the outcome. This is hard, at least for me, but IME it is the difference between doing it truly selflessly to help if you can and doing it for mixed reasons as you describe.

He may reach back, he may not. Either way, you will have done what you thought was right, which is all we can do. And if you don't, and this is the burden of the overly empathetic person, you will feel guilty, which is not good for anyone.

Great to see you!
Dropsie is offline  
Old 04-25-2021, 09:03 AM
  # 9 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
I think empathy is a spectrum, like many other things. I'm personally not the most empathetic person by nature, I had to learn it from others (still limited) and very rarely feel that I really know what someone else is experiencing internally, if ever... especially if I don't have quite similar spots in my own history or don't think we I share many personality traits (don't think addiction necessarily implies similar traits, or those relevant to a situation). My understanding of others' experiences and emotions is typically more based on sympathy and knowledge of psychology and other things about the human experience, and it's not effortless. I think some describe this as cognitive "empathy". But I thought to post because I've run into conflicts with people who describe themselves the way some of you guys on this thread - highly empathetic, often to their detriment, very hard to detach from others' moods and hardships around, hard not to reach out and support someone... I've mostly had colleagues like this, a very few close friends, I believe my mom was like that, and of course see plenty of people like this in recovery circles. So I thought a perspective from toward "the other end" of the spectrum might be interesting here because not being aware of differences can lead to lots of misunderstandings, miscommunication, even damaged relationships and alienation. I've been there a few times in my life and sometimes it was too late to recognize on either end.

Anyhow, the suggestion is please do not just plain assume that you know what someone else is going through, that you feel what they feel, and understand their needs without communicating directly and in detail. For example, many times I have had people reaching out to me in the way some of you suggest, both in relation to my struggles with addiction and other things, and I usually know it's driven by pure good will and intention to help. However, quite often I don't like it, especially when someone does it repeatedly, especially in private, without clear signals from me that it's welcomed and I want more... and it can lead to my isolating even more, dismissive responses that hurt the person with the good will, even abandoning relationships if it's persistent. For example the suggestion: "Hey, I've been exactly where you are and if you want a friend to speak with I am available" can have the opposite effect relative to what's intended, due to the "I've been exactly where you are" part, because unless it's clear that the other person and I have many similarities in our experiences and personal style, and really know each-other well, I would not know how that's possible and it would elicit more mistrust than openness. Don't get me wrong, this is not because the intention and wording of the person reaching out is wrong - it would be due to my own somewhat skeptical and avoidant style, even possibly finding the contact intrusive, especially if I am not doing well. I would rather receive "hey, I've been thinking of you and if you want someone to speak with I am available". Notice not claiming to know what the other is experiencing and that we are friends (unless we truly are friends and have a long, mutual history).

Again, I did not intend to criticize anyone's good intentions, these can just be nuances in communication that sometimes we take for grated because we assume similarities, but it's not always the case especially given how complex humans and human experiences can be. I'm also basing this post on the many other people quite similar to myself that I've been associated with throughout my life - the other often described similar misunderstandings, rejecting help, conflicts, even when we truly try to mature emotionally and understand these things better. So I would generally say start relatively low-key and wait for clear welcome signals from the other unless you already know each-other very well.
Aellyce is offline  
Old 04-25-2021, 09:22 AM
  # 10 (permalink)  
Member
 
Mizz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,748
I think that makes sense, Aellyce.
Wording can be everything.

I should rethink how I say things even if they are meant in the positive way. Healthy criticism is necessary.

You learn something new everyday!

Good Luck, Buck!
Mizz is offline  
Old 04-25-2021, 02:35 PM
  # 11 (permalink)  
Member
 
Delilah1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: California
Posts: 13,021
Hi Buckley,

I remember when you first had to deal with your DUI, and how impressed I was with your acceptance of what you could control, and decision to change for good. You are in such a good place now because of your hard work.

Think back to three years ago and how nice it would have been to have the support of someone like you in your life. I think you would be an excellent support for him.

Sending so much love!
❤️Delilah
Delilah1 is offline  
Old 04-25-2021, 03:37 PM
  # 12 (permalink)  
Member
 
Dropsie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,163
A2,

I totally agree. No-one knows what another person is feeling, and to presume one does can itself be thoughtless.

My point is that we feel what we perceive the other person's pain to be as though it was our own, but of course they don't feel the same as we would.

I remember when my sister was killed and people would tell my mother that they knew how she felt and she would be so angry because of course they did not.

But that is different from Buck saying I have been where you are at now, I care, and let me know if you want to talk. And I think therein lies the difference -- caring and being there versus presuming to know what the other person is feeling and trying to fix it.

But heh, that is just me.

X
Dropsie is offline  
Old 04-29-2021, 04:11 AM
  # 13 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: London
Posts: 333
I've known quite a few people that drink and drive, some will have just one more than they should and some would drive very drunk. I've never met anyone who has said at the beginning of the night i'm going to try and not to drink drive tonight and have bought out extra money for a taxi, ever! The kind of person that drink drives has no concern for anyone else on the road, they never say i wish i could stop drink ddriving as i would hate to hurt someone. So i've got no empathy for drink drivers at all. It's not insanity and it' got nothing to do with the effects of alcohol, it's just plain not caring for anyone but yourself.
Scd619x is offline  
Old 04-29-2021, 04:33 AM
  # 14 (permalink)  
Member
 
Mizz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,748
Originally Posted by Scd619x View Post
I've known quite a few people that drink and drive, some will have just one more than they should and some would drive very drunk. I've never met anyone who has said at the beginning of the night i'm going to try and not to drink drive tonight and have bought out extra money for a taxi, ever! The kind of person that drink drives has no concern for anyone else on the road, they never say i wish i could stop drink ddriving as i would hate to hurt someone. So i've got no empathy for drink drivers at all. It's not insanity and it' got nothing to do with the effects of alcohol, it's just plain not caring for anyone but yourself.
Your perspective is valid and understandable.

I have driven while under the influence of alcohol and have woken up the next day feeling extreme remorse for my actions. Alcohol lowers my inhibitions and rational decision making. There is no excuse for the action of driving while under the influence but there are many people who have done it and are now suffering the consequences for the action. I do think people care about other people. I know I do. I cant explain some of my decisions while under the influence but I can change and I can have empathy and sympathy for others. I think that is why I am on this forum. For change and to encourage other alcoholics who want to stop suffering from alcoholism.

Would I take back some of my actions? Yes. I most certainly would. Life really doesn't work that way.

Compassion and empathy goes a long way. We have all done things that are regrettable and have a lot of shame associated with those decisions.

Thank you for your perspective. May you never drink and drive. Hold true to that.
Mizz is offline  

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:14 AM.