GerandTwine

The original Washingtonians and Rational Recovery are the only two institutions I know of that have sparked the potential of a collective, pristine-pledge permanent abstinence movement that have made it into public view.

The Washingtonians pristine origins lasted only a few years and were attacked immediately and devoured, digested, and eliminated. It became a movement with gross conditions attached to abstinence. Other movements love to coattail themselves onto pledging permanent abstinence.

This force against the pristine pledge of permanent abstinence has persisted throughout time. Nevertheless, the simplicity, clarity, and exactness of what pledging permanent abstinence is, has made it the lasting and most popular, though “silent majority”, method of recovery of all time.

DriGuy

I mentioned somewhere around here about discovering that behavior short cut quite late. It's crucial in breaking an addiction, and it helps in a lot of other situations. Don't think about it, just stop what your doing. Then I feel the need to protest with, "But, but... but...I have to think this through."

No! Stop talking and thinking. And do what you need to do. You don't need to think about it. You know what needs done. I don't see that as lazy (as much fun as you had saying that). The correct description is that it's more efficient. It's not lazy at all.

DriGuy

Many paths to get there. AA, RR, SR, Smart, but there is nothing like a big dose of terrifying misery to seal the deal. It's easier to pledge RR's Big Plan, or accept a higher power if that's your cup of tea, or actually follow any reasonable path, when the alternative is so dire. That's how it was for me. I think I got off the merry-go-round sooner than a lot of guys, but I couldn't take any more. When you hit the bottom, your bottom, it's one more big incentive to get your head right.

And like you, mizz, or maybe just similar to your experience, my misery was bad enough, that even when I jumped in with both feet, made the commitment, and knew my drinking days were over, I was haunted for a long time with residual fears that I might drink again. I knew I was done, so these were irrational fears, but being irrational doesn't make them one bit less terrifying. Finally, I dismissed them all with a bunch of other baggage, because who wants to live with that?

JustJohn

This resonates with me a lot. That's how I stopped smoking and using drugs decades (32 years) ago - it was time and I was ready. Most people I've seen successfully stop drinking just did it. They were sick and tired of being sick and tired.

I think a lot of people - myself included - really know they have a problem, really know they need to quit, but deep down aren't really ready to completely stop for any number of reasons. I stopped drinking many times for extended periods, medium length periods and short periods - years, months, days. In reality I guess I wasn't completely done with being sick and tired.

For some reason I feel like I'm there now - it feels like a "knowing". But I also have those fears. It would really suck to drink again after posting these thoughts I'm having right now.

DriGuy - your posts in this thread have really spoken to me - thank you.

Dropsie

I think its theoretical, not directed at you. I may be the source because in response to your message, I was talking about the fact that my cravings, AV, etc. slowed down when I decided never to drink again. So I made that link for myself, not for anyone else.

Aellyce

Glad you mentioned the Washingtonians, because they have become so forgotten, even people now in professions dealing with mental health and addictions have never heard of them (not that it means a lot, those "professionals" are often amazingly uninformed about their own field). I had that conversation quite a few times. I guess the Washingtonians became too ambitious in trying to cover too much in an era when society was not ready for it, plus became associated too much with the failed prohibition movement.

There are many organizations these days that promote permanent abstinence, but most are too mellow and give too much leeway in their programs. For example, discriminating between lapses and relapses, one day at a time etc. I think these approaches arise because they recognize human struggles, weaknesses and don't want to be overly judgmental, but can also make it more difficult for people to really resolve their problem by being too accepting and encouraging holes on one's recovery, IMO at least.

I don't think the direction of the discussion was changed by your post per se, Dropsie. Pretty much everyone on this thread had said the same, that drinking urges diminished more with a solid, irreversible commitment to abstinence. And it makes sense.

Other than that, I believe there are biological differences between us - those cravings are the result of certain types of brain mechanisms, and that's influenced a lot by individual genetics and other biological factors. As for myself, I am also not surprised my desires are intense and stubborn, because I tend to be that way in other areas as well, including the ones that generate many positive outcomes. Very driven, knowing what I like/want, stubbornly pursuing these things no matter what anyone says and what the expectations are. It is part of the same brain circuitry that generates other desires and appetitive drives as well such as the one that gets out of balance in addiction. If my speculation is correct, I actually would not want to trade this "craving-prone" brain with a more indifferent one, because it serves me very well in many other areas. Nothing is perfect, oh well.

There are many examples for how traumatic experiences (we could probably call "misery" that) do not only impact the brain in negative ways, but can sometimes also elicit relatively fast alterations that make it easier for an individual to execute a desired change. We all heard stories from quite a few addicted people whose addiction culminated in major losses and chaos, even near death, and that became the turning point where they were finally able to get and stay sober. I think this is the mechanics of the proverbial "rock bottom". People like that also often describe that they never got cravings after that, or not significant ones, and sometimes associate this with the power of their subsequent recovery program. But it may be more within the individual's neurobiology than many recognize. We can even speculate that responding to traumas in this way serves basic survival.

So if I go back to my own experience, I personally never experienced such condensed, intense traumas due to my drinking within a short period of time, and definitely not during my relapse a month ago (which occurred after/during one of the otherwise best periods of my life in the past few years). My alcoholism had long-term, repetitive, but more low-grade consequences that were not even much noticeable to anyone else, unless I was honest and pointed it out. No major health issues, conflicts with the law, major conflicts with other people or clearly destroyed relationships. Even last fall, I had a heavily impacted few weeks when I was losing control in more ways than before, it really scared me, and it contributed to the motivation to finally take recovery seriously. But not more recently, during the relapse. I guess intense chaos and fear can truly lead to that "snap" sometimes. Not that lack of major chaos is a good argument for procrastination - that's exactly what I had been doing for way too long and don't recommend to anyone!

Anyhow, what I am speculating does not change anything in the fact that I'm done drinking and that's the main spectacle. But it's interesting and even fun for me to speculate about how things work (maybe that's my mental masturbation), it does not hurt and won't use any of the conclusions as an excuse to pick up.

DriGuy

Here is something to add that I'm now starting to see because of this discussion. Maybe RR overplays the need for the intensity of commitment, or maybe it I just read into it more than was there, because of my own experience. Rather than be all pushy about the depth, it's probably enough to just say, "Make the commitment." Of course, I still advocate pushing aside the chatter from one's AV like, "I can't because it's logically impossible." Just make the commitment. Whether you believe you can or can't, just make it and see what happens. Maybe you will find the immediate joy and rapture that I did, or maybe you won't. But here's the thing; You know it's the right thing to do, and if you embrace the most common wisdom that it's the only thing to do, you know the choice you have to make.

There. How's that? I'm putting away the hammer (I didn't realize it was a hammer. I thought it was a conductor's baton), but now I see it. I'm just getting softer in my old age. Wait, I don't like the sound of that. I'll say, "I'm getting wiser." OK?

DriGuy

Back in AA, the first night I attended a meeting, I was told that AA recommends total abstinence. It's so long ago that I can't remember the context. It may have come in response to me saying, "I'd like to control my drinking." But I thought,"OK if that's what it really takes, I'll give it a go."

It was not presented as a must do and was followed up by a justification for an incomplete abstinence. That old timer that I thought was the group guru said that relapsing was not the ideal, but if AA got someone sober for a year, and then they went back out for a year, at least that person would have one year sober. But that seemed to also fly in the face of the conventional wisdom of the progressive nature of alcoholism, that while you are sober for 10 years, the disease progresses while you are dry, and when you go back out you end up right were you were if you had never stopped.

I don't know if this is true. I've never read any studies that show this, but true or not, I didn't see a good reason to experiment with anything less than permanent abstinence. Maybe it doesn't work that way. I didn't know, and still don't know. But somehow in the dimness of my alcoholic awakening, there was a little hint that being sober for the rest of my life would be better than anything I had experienced in the last 6 months of my drinking. And it turned out that that perception underestimated the actual joy that was in store.

Did I read somewhere just recently that the backlash to abstinence was a concession to those alcoholics who didn't like it? If so, it didn't have an effect on what I wanted from the rest of my life. In all these years, I still don't know much about how others struggle or how alcoholism affects them. I know they struggle, no question about that, but all I know is limited to what I have discovered about myself. I know what I've read in books and in forums, and most of that is congruent with my experience, but not all. And I don't struggle, not with alcohol or the ups and downs of my life. I don't know if that's because of sobriety or my age, or a combination of the two. Would I be this happy if I were 30 and sober? I don't know.

Aellyce

I don't know if RR overplays it or pushes "depth" at all, my impression (interpretation) is more that it makes it flat out unidirectional, just one option on what we could otherwise see as a black & white spectrum (I say "spectrum" for those who are ambivalent in the gray area). The way I see it is just calling for saying plain 'no' to drinking, no depth or grading required. This is also how I experience my own decision now, and why I find it hard to relate to the shares when people talk about really making a commitment, or not enough. It's hard to relate, because none of us can enter someone else's mind and experience what a different state feels like, we can only compare our own different states. But we all mean the same by 'yes' and 'no'. So I don't see a range there if you want to make it work, just one option. For many years ago, I was always ambivalent, moving across that spectrum, the only thing it achieved was perhaps some harm reduction (my AV/Beast became very resourceful and manipulative to get away with it, I didn't drink everyday, tried to schedule to times/days when it was somewhat less destructive and I could hide better and recover from a binge, and didn't end up destroying anything significant in my life). But it was the hardest thing I'd ever done to maintain that reality, it wasn't satisfying at all, clearly didn't lead to sobriety, and kept blocking many improvements. So now I see only one, plain option, one point, no line, no area. But maybe this is exactly what you are suggesting as well, and if so, I completely agree. I liked best what GT said about it's being unipolar, why I also chose my current avatar when I did (I think that was an idea after an older comment from GT as well), although it is not very precise as sobriety is not truly a "way", it is or isn't. I see no reason to make it more complex, at least for me now. I really get it now, finally .

As for the "immediate joy", as I said yesterday I did experience something like that for 1-2 days about a month ago, when we were talking on my other thread, I started reading the RR book, and made my decision. It felt like relief, a sense of freedom, elevated mood. It was enough for me, I would not want a more lasting euphoric mental state, pink cloud, call it whatever, because for me it would feel a bit suspicious, too addiction-like, not balanced and even-keeled. I prefer my more stoic calm about this, I think it also fits my personality better so I trust it more. It's better for me to get peak experiences from other sources. My AV chatter actually does not affect this calm much, I experience my AV more like thoughts than intense emotions. It can sometimes feel a bit overwhelming, but not in a depressing or anxiety-provoking way. But whatever everyone likes and can get out of early sobriety is best for us - as we say, the only real important feature is that we do not drink again.

Aellyce

Now this is a suggestion that I personally really despise. I'm fine with the disease concept, but how can alcohol use disorder progress when you stay sober and don't consume any? Of course there are nuances, like very often people replace alcohol abuse with another addiction or obsessive, excessive preoccupation, and addiction or obsessive/compulsive preoccupation can surely progress if we don't drink. But that is not the "disease of alcoholism" (whatever term we use for it), it's misleading, inaccurate, and can harm people's self-esteem and sense of accomplishment, IMO. I know they sometimes do this in AA, and I believe not the majority of people in AA, but perhaps it more comes from exactly those who are in some state of replacement obsession/addiction and project it onto others instead of seeing and resolving in their own lives. But I don't think it's AA's fault, there are individuals like that in every program, also among those who never used any established program and just figured out how to stop on their own.

ScottFromWI

I don't identify as a "member" of any particular recovery method or theory. I think sometimes the semantics really get in the way - does it really matter if you call it sobriety, permanent abstinence? At the end of the day, if we drink, bad things will happen - every time. So not drinking is the better choice.

We do also have overwhelming evidence right here on SR that remaining abstinent, even for a long time does not change the above fact - bad things will still happen if we drink. Whatever it is that is inside us in that regard cannot be changed. Maybe someday they will figure out a way to "reprogram" us, but I'm not holding out much hope on that ;-) And quite honestly, even if they did - i now see that even small amounts of alcohol would be detrimental to me so I would still choose to not drink.

From a site perspective, lets also keep in mind ( all of us ) that there is a fine line between a discussion and a debate/argument about specific recovery plans - and the latter is against site policy.

Aellyce

Thanks Scott, let's not get extreme in any way about anything we discuss, I agree and it usually only alienates people. I also do not identify as belonging to any one program or method and am interested in useful things from anything, have tried many and prefer to make my collection that works for me. I think the usefulness is a better focus than what we don't like., even for critical minds like some of us who have posted on this thread . As for the bad things, I think those happen to anyone, addicted or not, part of life and we all have challenges. I'm personally not sure life would be better or even more satisfying if we only experienced good things, but that's another discussion.

ScottFromWI

I totally agree with this, most ( almost all? ) of our lives are beyond our control, and it's not a fair world we live in.

To clarify, what I was referring to specific to this conversation though is the "bad things" that happen specifically as a result of our choice to drink. Obviously health ( both mental and physical ) are affected greatly, and it's pretty well documented that when we do return to drinking it escalates back to a critical stage very quickly. It also compounds all the rest of the issues in our lives because we are not as well prepared to deal with them.

DriGuy

I like this^ Black and White or Yes and NO opens the possibility that you could be right or WRONG but ambivalence too often leads nowhere. You can right a wrong, and you can probably right an ambivalence too, but that brings you right back to taking a risk of being right or wrong because if you're in a dark funk, eventually you have to do something. And that seems so relevant with recovery. In other situations we can often survive on ambivalence because what we do isn't as vital.

advbike

This was always the problem for me. It never got that bad. Only when viewed over decades and the cumulative effects tallied, can I see how much I have lost. But no one would have ever said I had a serious problem, except when I was really a bit out of control in my twenties. After that I learned to control it (and hide it) to some degree, which many can't for various reasons. Easy to keep going when the consequences lean toward the "long-term" rather than the immediate, and are not clearly defined yet. It's like the frog in the pot of water. Human psychology is known to downplay future risks in favor of short term gain. One of the reasons nothing much has been done about the existential problem of climate change.

I certainly won't argue that in my case the long term results have been really bad for my relationships and my personal growth in some areas (ability to tackle my other issues), and possibly even worse than the short term damage some experience from really heavy drinking over a shorter timeframe (DUI's, lost jobs, etc) - but it still makes it hard to make the commitment when the most severe consequence of those 3-4 glasses of wine tonight is likely to be some bad sleep and anxiety tomorrow. It means we have to dig deep for the motivation, looking at lots of more subtle indicators and listening to the internal voice that says "you might be able to continue a while longer, but this isn't going to end well".

I often think the lucky ones are those who hit a hard bottom in their late twenties or mid thirties and have to quit or die. And the consequences are so severe that they make the abstinence pledge, pull it together, and have a good life.

I will add, that it is this "looking back" process, seeing what I have sacrificed, and desire for personal growth that has spurred my commitment to total abstinence the most. I'm tired of not achieving my potential.

advbike

Agree with this 100%. It certainly didn't "progress" to a worse condition in my case. All those long breaks slowly made it easier for me to not drink, as I experienced the benefits of sobriety and when I picked up again it was almost always a lower amount. I never got those claims of it progressing while not drinking. Certainly it does while the drinking continues.

Aellyce

I agree with everything you said, but would like to make a comment on the above. I didn't have a problem until my early 30s, but have known many people who became severely addicted in their teens and 20s (more via my professional studies than personal life) and pulled it together early - it's not that different from my experience in terms of timing (living alcoholically for 17 years, if we count from 30). However, there are often very dire consequences of those early addictions: they can impact a developing brain in more severe ways, damage one's chances for education, make it impossible even to individuate normally and become a responsible, self-sufficient adult. People who fall into very severe addictions very young are also often those who end up with the most serious conflicts with the law - not so great to be sober but be in prison for your prime years? Or having accumulated felonies that seriously limits life prospects (e.g. career). They might quit earlier and have the rest of their lives free from drugs, but can also struggle more due to those things not established properly early on, and with severe regrets that are hard to change later in life. I personally don't think that's luckier, it's just another form of this affliction. Of course, I am not talking about those who started very young and continued for decades, in that case I would agree.

GerandTwine

”No” to an appetite drive just means “later”. It does nothing towards the cure.
“Never”, on the other hand, keeps IT in IT’s place as the helpless quadriplegic Beast it is and always has been.
In AVRT recalling “NO” is the AV speaking. Recalling “never” is YOU not even breaking a stride in continuing YOUR human existence - refusing to even consider catering to that old animalistic life of commingling with Beast driven people unsure of when the next drink will come and unwilling to commit to Never Again.

This ACE of recovery surely did not come from just “no”. It had to come from “never again”. You have decided for yourself that you cannot drink again. Your willful decision has that much control over the eentsy teeentsy weeentsy exacting topic of ethanol-down-your-throat for the rest of your life. And after all, getting anything into your throat is one of the most conscious and deliberative thought out actions possible for obvious reasons.

DriGuy

For 30 years that was me too, suffering in small increments and then adjusting to the consequences. A lot of people didn't realize the direction of my life. Maybe they were just adjusting to me the way I was adjusting to me. One close friend didn't recognize my problem, even when I confided it to him toward the end. If I had not hit that accelerating downward spiral, maybe I would still be drinking. But an alcoholic doesn't need a spiral. He's probably going to get to the same place we are all heading. It's just going to take more time.

JustJohn

My first "relapse" after over 3.5 years was a single glass of wine. Tasted like crap, left a horrible after taste, no pleasant buzz and terrible guilt the next day. But it did a number on me psychologically and led to 13 years of attempts at moderation. I didn't go straight back to daily drinking, but it did have an accumulative effect on my brain and body that took a good 90+ days to begin clearing the cumulative fog. On day 113 I'm still not sure the fog has completely lifted.

I'm a skeptic of the disease concept, but there does seem to be some biological and chemical differences between addicts. Some relapse and go straight back into the gutter, while others develop some ability to moderate, and the rest fall somewhere in between. All realize they must somehow stop completely.

I read a lot and truly enjoy learning in general. I read several scholarly articles on how brain damage accelerates once long time drinkers hit age 60 - I was 56 at the time, and that was one of the things that woke me up to the fact that if I didn't stop, it was going to reduce my quality of life and eventually kill me.

Reasons - I found mine. The choice to me was to either keep on drinking and continue the slow suicide from the brain damage - or stop forever.