DriGuy

Not being honest with ourselves seems like it may be the reason people relapse after a long period of success. There are other reasons too of course, but in my case, I believe thinking I could have just one drink is dishonesty. Maybe I project this onto others, but I believe I know this to be untrue (for me) based on my past, where I was never able once in years and years to have just one drink, and also I accept that not being able to have just one drink defines "alcoholism."

I also believe that thinking you can get away with it is the most highly seductive tactic your AV can offer, which brings into question of whether its an issue of actual dishonesty, or just hard headed denial. I'm sorry, I don't believe there is a polite way to put that.

The bottom line when tempted to drink at 4 months is that you still have to say "no," just like you did that first week. You still have to fight that battle, and you will for the rest of your life, although with time, that battle becomes more winnable, but you still have to win it every time.

Somewhat like Mizz, I believe being honest with those trying to help you provides experience for learning to be honest with yourself. I rate self honesty and outward honesty both very high. We don't need to know the innermost thoughts raging in your subconscious. None of us is asking for that kind of disclosure. We just want to trust you on the things that matter. It's important in friendship as well as for your own good in more casual relationships. It's almost impossible to be dishonest and get away with it for long, and then it comes back to haunt you.

Aellyce

Valid question. But absolutely no valid purpose. Judgment (especially on an anonymous forum) is really not an issue for me - in fact it helps me the most when people express skepticism and judgment about my behavior, ask questions like you just did, because my behaviors are obviously wrong and not helpful to anyone, including pretty much wasting others' time. From all I can think of, past and present, it only serves one "purpose" - I tend to do this to distract myself, it's an escape strategy, so I can continue with drinking and half-assed or no effort because my mind is less preoccupied and acutely focused on the real problem, I accept it more myself because it gets diffused by all sorts of irrelevant crap and I block any possible constructive feedback from the outside as well. It's also procrastination, much like canceling a doctor appointment - not going won't realistically make me think everything is in perfect order, but I put off dealing with it.

I'm glad you asked the question Mizz, because I always find the fear of judgment thing very out of place in my case, and people's thinking that is the issue, tempering their feedback to appear less judgmental etc, only makes it worse. Even the little fear of judgment I have in general, it is completely irrelevant in a community like this (or other recovery communities, with doctors etc), I know perfectly well that I won't get much judgment from these sources, people primarily want to offer support and solutions to try. I think there is an internal element that I don't like being incompetent, and this long track of coming to recovery communities, not using them properly and/or stopping the good work after relatively short periods of time, is definitely a lack of competence in resolving my addiction, literally-speaking. But this is less of the drive when I lie here, I know that resolving an addiction is not about competency, it's about sustained effort. If I kept that up, I would not relapse, and there would not be anything to lie about or hide. So it's primarily the first thing I described, I think: using the well-meant methods in the wrong way, as distraction. When I distract others, it distracts me further as well from the reality and the problem. It is ultimately a method to alter my reality, like drinking alcohol itself. I had the exact same issue in the past with therapy, why it was mostly wasted time, money and energy. I'm actually thinking (again, had similar thoughts after the first confession) that I may not be doing myself a whole lot of good with using SR for my recovery, because I have such a long and complicated history of misusing it. I know probably many people would want to convince me to continue posting, but I'm seriously doubting it's good in my specific case. I think what would be much better is using SMART and Refuge Recovery intensely again, and keeping up the health checks and goals - I've never abused those or engaged with people there in ways that were distractions and never even felt the urge to do so. And just in general, focus on my practical goals and tasks - that was so good and super progressive for 3 months! Talking too much, not so much.

Mizz

So your solution is to run away? That is what I have read from you.

Aellyce

Thanks DriGuy - as usually, you have offered a lot of good observations and suggestions. I think my AV is a sophisticated seductress for real. I've seen some people's AVs being self-pitying, nihilistic, mean, violent, more obviously and directly destructive - mine is this trickster that loves to appear like a know-it-all, resourceful, successful individual. But it knows very little about what truly matters. I think you are also right about the denial. I said earlier it's easier for me to be honest with myself, and in many things probably it's true, but not in the specific case of addiction and dealing with its temptations. So in this context, what I said about distraction and procrastination (and lying to facilitate those) makes even more sense - it makes denial easier because it clouds my self-awareness some, especially when I water it with alcohol.

I actually never fancy normal drinking or think I could or would like to have only one, I crave the full-blown experience. Even when I drank recently after >3 months, I finished the whole bottle of vodka and knew I would do that before buying it, no illusions. I also drank exactly the same way recently as I had always done: at home, in secret, alone. My version is more a denial that I can perhaps get away with one more episode of getting totally wasted. Maybe can get away with a few more benders, yes, but more likely sooner than I think now, I would come back with a much more devastated, ruined landscape of my life, illness or death, like it often happens to many addicts who continue doing things like I do. It is really the best time for me to experience this as very real, at a stage where I initiated a bunch of good things in my life. Engaging with the AV even once more would surely only cause damage.

I completely agree it is not necessary at all to dig into any deep, subconscious mechanisms, it infamously more just hinders progress for me, and there really is nothing much unknown to be found there. It's an addiction, as simple as that, and the solution to that is complete, long-term abstinence. Lying also wouldn't be an issue for me, I think, because I don't feel urges to lie about important things when I'm sober, it is always in association with my drinking and serves only one purpose: to keep the AV and its existence "alive". I need to somehow nail into my stubborn head that it's not viable and will definitely kill everything eventually. No real getting away with it in any realm that truly matters.

All this reminds me of a quote I love by Viktor Frankl: "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." Someone posted it on another thread earlier this week and it immediately struck me to the core, because this is really my problem, nothing much else. That I have not mastered handling with that "space" well-enough yet. I'll make a large image with this quote and put it is as background on my computers, because this is where my focus should be now, and for a long time to come, nothing else.

Anna

I'm glad you decided to be honest with us, and with yourself, Aellyce.

You said you aren't concerned about judgment from our members, but it sounds to be like you are judging yourself. I did the same and it hampered my recovery for a long time. It was hard for me to accept how flawed I was, broken, in fact. But, I couldn't begin to heal until I accepted that. We all struggle with something in life, so try to be kind to yourself as you begin to heal.

I think leaving SR is more of you looking for distraction, rather than dealing with your addiction. But, that's just how I see it. Of course, using other resources will likely be very helpful for you, too. But, turning your back on SR doesn't seem like a positive move to me.

Aellyce

I don't want to run away, was mostly just contemplating how much whatever I'm doing is helpful. I did find SR very helpful recently, during my sober months and right after these confessions, including today. Just a bit confused at what are indeed the things that are constructive long-term. You guys may be right though. If I continue using SR in the ways I did between November 2020 and two weeks ago, it's very helpful and complements the other methods well. The $hitshow, distraction and distortion tendencies only really happen when I pick up the drink and then hide it (even during the long years prior), so dealing with those moments better is where most of my efforts should go.

Speaking of that "space" and using SR better, I think I'll take a deep dive into the older AVRT discussions, how exactly people here interpreted and used that method for lasting success, because those AV moments are really my biggest challenges. It got very significantly quieter gradually when I was abstaining, as expected, and faster than I thought. But I made one mistake, and it brought it back intensely. SMART has all the cool motivation and urge management tools, but I don't think I've ever embraced the original AVRT much, and it's very compatible with my biggest problem and even my personality. I know people here on the forums had very good discussions on it, so I'll take my a$$ there today.

Thanks Anna, you are always very kind. I truly think it does me good to make these judgments though, and it's helpful when people make direct, even probing observations. I'm not very self-flagellating and self-doubting otherwise when I'm sober, don't think it's a problem, like self-esteem and such. But I do undermine what's good about my self-esteem with relapsing, so the thing to do is better relapse prevention.

kinzoku

How's your commitment to a sober day today? Good to start with that. Too much intellectualizing, it can just be complicated ways of justifying behavior we don't want. Just two cents from a guy who does the same thing.

Aellyce

I agree. My commitment today (new day 2) is very strong and I expect it to be similar as long as I do things to keep it up and not engage with stuff that undermines it. I did that before and it worked very well.

As planned earlier, just read through a lot of the AVRT discussions here on SR, and some at other places on the web. I will re-read that book, too. It's old and parts of it may be outdated, but there are definitely things in it that I did not use before. I have a great deal of dismissiveness that serves me well in the interpersonal world, when I stay pretty easily immune to external destructive forces, influence, abuse, don't care what others expect of me, can move on etc - I rather need to apply the same thing relative to what's unhelpful inside of me, because it still creates too much preoccupation, anticipation, then acting out. Then I isolate what I should not be isolating (i.e. external help). I do think I can model parts of my upgraded urge management based on some of the things I'm naturally good and strong at in other areas of life, I think my self-protection is a bit backwards and a better idea to straighten it out than trying to look for problems and solutions where there is nothing useful for me.

But even this last thought process here is too complicated. I have a lot of good, practical things to focus on and manage in my life, so get productive with those, they were very rewarding and exciting for 3+ months.

Steely

How are you going to "relapse prevent?"

It screws with my self esteem too. Not worth it because it doesn't go anywhere. And I want to go somewhere.

Aellyce

Hell yeah, me too. The addiction cycle is boring, I also want to go somewhere

"Relapse prevent" by not drinking alcohol, and achieving it by implementing more helpful strategies, much like I did for 3+ months, but more consistently and stably. The whole thing went downhill when I stopped those things, but I still had a lot of space to self-correct - just didn't do it. Instead, eventually I went out, bought booze, and drank it all, like ever before. The lies and hiding can also be prevented by taking any relapses out of the equation. People on my earlier coming clean thread also gave me plenty of good suggestions and tricks for not picking up. I used many for a good while, so will use similar things, and some new things, now.

DriGuy

In almost all areas of our lives like driving our car, doing our job, building our skills, or building relationships with others there is always a little room for cheating. We can get a lot done, and do well in almost anything without being perfect. The extraordinary exceptions are things like training for the Olympics or playing first chair in the philharmonic, but few people need to work that hard to survive. We have learned how to survive without the rigidity of a type A personality and a whole lot less.

Along comes the recognition of our own alcoholism, and now our every day survival skills are no longer enough. We have to learn something new. Cheating a little is no longer an option. In fact, it ends in failure. Just a little ends in failure. We can cheat in other areas, and not worry about failure. At most, it only amounts to a little less than doing our best. But recovery is almost outlandishly binary. We either achieve success or we fail. Many of us fail again and again, until we finally catch on to the binary nature of recovery that there isn't much in between the two extremes.

Some people have argued in the past that this is not correct, and I could be wrong; Well, at least a little wrong, but the point I'm trying to make here is that there must be a drastic required change if we want to whip this particular problem. Cheating doesn't work. Zero tolerance for mistakes takes on a new importance we are not used to. Vigilance against our AV becomes a hyper vigilant necessity. In short, we have to get serious, more serious about this thing than we have been in the rest of our lives. And we can never stop. What we can hope for is that our dedication and commitment becomes a natural part of our new life to an extent that we don't have to think about it like a type A personality. We don't have to think about it as much, but we can never let up. A slip is just as dangerous at 25 years as it is at 2 months.

Accept this, and learn to like it. Yes, it's a pretty big order, but you've only got two possible outcomes; Success or failure. But as extraordinarily rigid as these demands are, the rewards are also extraordinarily rewarding. And... it's within everyone's reach. It's just more different than what we have grown used to.

Obladi

Aellyce, I'm sorry to hear you were drinking again, but also glad that it took you so little time (comparatively speaking) to "fess up."

As a fellow traveler in the dimension of intellectualism, I'd suggest a couple of thoughts/observations - take em or leave em:

- You drank because something happened inside of you. Maybe it was a sudden something or maybe it was like a slowly warming pot boiling over. You might not know what that something is, but I believe you know that it's there and it ain't as simple as "a craving." I also believe it's completely valid (and potentially the very best thing) to shelve that "something" for now. That's what I did, and the box is still on the shelf in the dark recesses of my virtual closet. I know what's in there and I'm not gonna touch it with a ten foot pole. And I'm fine with that. For now. Maybe rather than denying yourself the "something" I suspect that you know is there, you could make a shelf in your own closet?

- Part of how you deal with life in general is by observing yourself, observing others, observing yourself in relation to others. Same here. It's a survival skill, but it can also be deadly if you can't ever put that aside to just feel the feels. There could be a thousand reasons you drank, but the stark fact is that you did. And that schlitz has to stop. No matter how badly you want to drink, the right answer is always, "hell, no." And it's way harder than either you or I thought it would be.

- Maybe you've been deceptive about your lack of sobriety here because you dearly want to be one of the gang, and a shining example to boot. It could be just that simple, and that's ok. That's no reason to leave here - it's actually a good reason to stay and be honest about whatever is causing you dis-ease. As much as it doesn't probably seem so, sharing my sober "stuff" is not something I relish doing (I think my junk is all boring and totally self-centered) - it's what I force myself to do because it's what I need to do. It's how I stay healthy.

- And yeah, keep doing ALL of the things you found helpful to support your sobriety. If you have to drop something, pick something else up. Maybe go outside of your comfort zone. Good things could happen.

- Those AVRT discussions are heady and brain-twisters, but you know what the bottom line is? Don't fear the beast - IT has no power over you, not really. The end.

I know you can do this, Aellyce.
I'm glad "you" are back.

O

Aellyce

DriGuy - yes, it's hard to accept the completely, 100% binary nature of recovery, especially for someone who otherwise prides herself on being able to see many sides and angles of issues in almost any situation. But there are indeed no shades here, and I do need to develop and then apply a purely black & white vision better, something that is otherwise very hard for me and so not my nature, and this is not only because of the AV and addiction primarily I think, but because of who I am naturally. There is no other way with this though, no room for ambivalence, openness, call it whatever, nothing else. People told me these things last time we had the other similar discussion and I thought I had a good grasp, but there is still too much "gap" in it that needs to be eliminated.

O - thanks so much, what a brilliant post. I especially liked:
"Maybe you've been deceptive about your lack of sobriety here because you dearly want to be one of the gang, and a shining example to boot. It could be just that simple, and that's ok. That's no reason to leave here - it's actually a good reason to stay and be honest about whatever is causing you dis-ease. As much as it doesn't probably seem so, sharing my sober "stuff" is not something I relish doing (I think my junk is all boring and totally self-centered) - it's what I force myself to do because it's what I need to do. It's how I stay healthy."

I think you answered Mizz's question better than I did earlier with the bolded , although I think that stuff about distraction is a big part of it, too. Together, these things now feel much more complete, much more relatable and on point than fear of judgment or similar. I do like to do things well in many area of life, and enjoy being competent, a teacher, a good example etc. And often succeed at those things. But, as DriGuy said, with this addiction it takes more, it's much harder work to really get there than anywhere else.

And surely, there are things inside of me (and everyone, I believe) that cause these troubles and struggles with addiction, and anything else we struggle with. I agree with you and some others though that it does not need to be dissected now, maybe not an a forum like this, and definitely not right now. I don't believe it's so serious and powerful now that it will prevent my progress with recovery if I do those simpler things better and more consistently, and I can find a way to deal with the deeper things.

Thanks everyone again - it's turned into a great thread. Being secretive (or running away) blocks all this before they can even emerge, or just leads to misunderstanding, misidentifying, and talking about irrelevant things, rinse repeat. That was my problem with not getting the best out of SR in the past and there is a simple fix to this as well, even if it's not always easy. I think developing more of a binary approach here will help with the honesty things, too.

Aellyce

I think the best course of action, for me, also includes getting busy and productive with interesting projects/activities. For example, just got back into organizing my move today and making some travel plans for after the move is done. The whole destructive mindset and relapses started after the last formal day on my old job, and taking "relaxing" the wrong way, basically doing nothing productive other than some walks and reading. Of course, then there is a lot more room and mental energy for useless thoughts and cravings.

Won't happen again, it's much better for me to relax in an active way. I was also very busy throughout the good 3 months and it felt great - I need to balance normal life activities well with actual recovery work, I think that is immensely helpful. The actual SMART program itself promotes that as well, they even have a whole section of great tools for improving lifestyle, which I was doing every day before the first recent drinking episode. I think stress and other challenges only become dangerous for me if I just sit around when there is downtime and wait time. Good active distractions worked great to actually prevent the intense urges as well, not only treat them once they occurred. I think these kinds of things are essential for my recovery- and relapse prevention plan.

Also meaning, probably I won't take a super long vacation - better to just be done with my move, travel a few weeks (which was planned), then get to business. I know I'll love expanding my business now that the old job is gone and that will bring a great deal of new and interesting activities by itself, including brand new social engagements. ~One recovery meeting a day is probably still a good idea though for a while, it's definitely not a valid excuse that I don't have 1-1.5 hour a day for those. And exercise! Now that spring is coming, the latter will be especially much easier given that I prefer the outdoors.

DriGuy

We hear on occasion that the relapse happens long before we take the first drink, and I believe this is much more than another cute relapse cliche'. We plan this at some level, like I used to make plans for my evenings. Of course, this was always done with best of intentions and with images of having those drinks in a highly controlled and rational way (the lack of self honesty we have been talking about).

Yes, these plans need to be put in a closet. A furnace would be even better. But first we must acknowledge that acts of such fantasy as the fool's errand. We often reduce recovery to its simplest terms, "Don't take that first drink." And if you like to keep it simple, you can't do much better than that, even if it comes off as cavalier. But sometimes this requires some forethought and vigilance. The days of the daydreams and escaping to the fantasy, need to be discarded. They serve no useful purpose, at least as far as I can see, and they set the stage for violating the 1st and most simple rule in recovery.

Aellyce

I definitely believe the idea that relapses happen mentally before picking up the drink, sometimes long before. If not about myself, I've seen these processes for other people here on SR, and there is scientific literature on this as well, so it's far from a belief thing. Even outside of how addiction works, similar things are documented for how decision making and consciousness works - for example, that many decisions are made first unconsciously (without details, it serves normal survival), we more just become conscious of the result with a delay and might register that moment as the moment of the brain's / our decision, but it's not. What we describe as impulses and seemingly impulsive acts as not that spontaneous, after all.

I can indeed trace some of this back about my relapse, this is another part of why I love that quote I mentioned about stimulus and response, from Viktor Frankl. Actually, behavioral- and neuroscience uses similar terminology even. Scientists nowadays know quite a lot about how this works mechanistically, even down to molecular levels - I even did some research on similar things (in relation to relapses, no less!) myself in my old job, it's fascinating stuff. So I am definitely not lacking the knowledge, but I need to get much better at recognizing when these switches are truly turned inside me, when that "space" begins, not the end when I have very little room for altering my response.

Part of this is exactly why I made my earlier post: I definitely had those wrong thoughts about "relaxing" after my last day on the job, but even dropped the recovery meetings in the last couple weeks before. In some ways, I think it's similar to when someone who has been on Antabuse stops taking their medication, knowing ~how long it would take to be able to drink without getting sick. I was not on Antabuse, but knew exactly the timing of my duties and responsibilities, including when I would possibly have a few days of downtime from the new projects - and that's exactly when I picked up first, then did two more times during the couple following weeks. In the "best" gaps, which I thought would be the least riskier (here comes the self-delusion, thinking I'm so rational - these relapses have much more consequences than just affecting a day or two). It's pretty easy for me to see all this is retrospect now, and to some extent even the acute planning was conscious, just less so relative to the recognition and analysis now. This is why I had the idea that, in addition to getting better at managing the urges in the moment, I should also eliminate some of those gaps in advance, change my plan now, before the other forces in my brain take over again.

I feel this whole planning thing is a double-edged sword for me though, because I am naturally a planner. I tend to think about things in advance, make plans A, B, C, D and so on. Both short- and long-term. This natural orientation and ability is great for many things in my life and largely contributes to my successes, especially the professional ones. Not so sure how well it serves my recovery though, because my AV is also a great planner and manipulator of all things to achieve its goals.

So now, especially this, might seem like too much analysis and intellectualizing for some, but I think this is not useless distraction and absolutely essential for my awareness and developing a better strategy, if for nothing else, because planning considering this knowledge would be based on beliefs and values I strongly hold, about science and biology. It may not help someone who does not care about science and prefers a more spiritual approach, but I think it's a good idea to capitalize on what comes more easily and naturally for each of us. Or is this the wrong perception? What do you guys think? Asking because sometimes people say it's good to use recovery approaches that take us far outside our comfort zone, that is not an automatic reaction. That also makes sense. Part of why I was also thinking I should probably change my posting style here, ramble less etc, focus on the simplest factors. But then some of you here bring up and ask for these more complex analyses as well

Anna

Aellyce, I know that for me, balance with everything in my life as much as possible, is what works. Plus, having a routine, even on vacation, is something that I need. And, having a plan that works for you is what matters.

GerandTwine

Now that you are reinterested in AVRT, you will come headlong up against the mother of all “plans”. You know what it is. And it is based on simple science: The Structural Model of Addiction. Complete in and out recovery from addiction is not complex or belaboring using AVRT. That’s why most people who have learned and used it here are not here any more.

I believe the best way to kill off a powerful but unwanted habituated pleasurable appetite is to use the most effective tool I have as a human being. My irrevocable memory of having pledged “I will never drink again.”
AVRT leads all addicted people to this required conclusion of their recoveries. This “Big Plan” forces AV Recognition. It is the epitome of the Technique. I cannot help but remain permanently abstinent because I know I made that plan, even though it was a long time ago.

Aellyce

Can you maybe help with some pointers, GerandTwine? I read the book before and also a lot of the AVRT discussions here on SR. The part I'm not very good at is the actual dissociative technique. I always wondered if this might come more easily for people who are somehow prone to dissociation, used that mental mechanism automatically early in life or otherwise, for other types of self-protection as well. Because I'm really not dissociative naturally, very hard for me to generate that sense within myself, to split my consciousness. Even some of the psychotherapy approaches that analyze or work with "parts" of the psyche are sort of a mystery to me - I always found them intriguing, read a lot about them and discussed with people, but very hard for me to relate or see myself in fragments like that, even when I try to force it. A long time ago, when I first got interested in AVRT, I also had some reservations whether it's a good idea - many people actually aim for an integrated psyche to recover from various mental maladies, and I experience mine without fragments by default. The most I can easily do is to designate my different desires and motives to different sources inside, but it does not feel enough. I was also afraid of losing some good parts of integrity with it. But maybe for you guys, even just these doubts and hesitations would constitute "AV talk"?

In any case, I am open to dropping those reservations now for realizing my Big Plan, but would need to learn how to have that sense of separation better. This is a question for anyone, also feel free to recommend any specific older thread or other literature that describes the more detailed "how to" of this technique. I definitely want to get rid of the intense AV influence I am prone to and consider myself pretty rational, but manifesting it in my mind is not something that comes naturally.

Obladi

Well, here's the thing. You are who you are.
You plan - it's a life skill you employ that is natural and helpful to you.

Here's the other thing. Your addiction (beast) is every bit as clever as you are. You can't outrun it. You can't outwit it. You can't change who you are and even if you did, your addiction would be right there with you.

So serves you well or not, you are who you are, and part of who you are now is a person who ought not drink. And part of who you are is an addicted person that will have those addictive thought patterns.

In AVRT, one is taught to make a decision to never drink again and never change your mind. In AA, some of the old-timers say don't drink even if your hindquarters are falling off. Same same.

But how? For some folks, it seems to suffice to avow with hand on heart, "I will never drink again and I will never change my mind." For others, saying some special prayers and hanging out with sober drunks seems to do the trick. For me, it was learning to live through that "something" that caused tremendous unbearable discomfort within myself - that was the hard part. It helps quite a lot to remind myself that I Never Drink Now, it helps to hang out with sober drunks, it helps to meditate. But really, the lynchpin was that I just had to go through that crap, then stick with the program.