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Old 11-25-2020, 05:33 AM
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I would also like to second what O said.

Taking those moments when on wants to do something,anything, to avoid the discomfort, and thinking about what is really bothering me.

Like now, why do I want to do anything except the work I need to do...

For me, the root causes of my disfunction are the same whether it be avoidance through drinking or avoidance through web surfing.

It all stems from that dis-ease I feel that makes me want to jump out of my skin.

I have recently realised that just recognising it is here makes it lose a lot of power. But even when I KNOW what causes it, it does not instantly go away.

I have to live with it, go through it.

Breathing helps. Trying to be in love not fear helps. Drinking and surfing the internet, not so much.

XX
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Old 11-25-2020, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Dropsie View Post
For me, it was about taking a decision, fully and totally committing at every level to "being" a non-drinker. After I took that decision at my core, it was all just implementation. But because I had decided, past tense, that was not an option so I had to find what worked. What really helped me was three related things....and (3) when I realised that for me, drinking is morally wrong. I do not kick my dog, I do not drink. I could kick my dog, but that would be wrong.
Yes! I was 'triggered' to drink by everything, every emotion, every feeling, until such point as I drank all day, every day, so pretty hardcore. To crawl out of that dark place, I had to commit to never drinking again (or NOW - nod to Obladi). So in the early days, whatever that took to ignore cravings....all the tools, or should I say distractions, have been posted previously, and they help.

But what I found helped more, longterm, once out of the physical withdrawal stage, was accepting that it was immoral for me to drink, it turned me into someone who hated herself, who did things against her moral code, which were wrong, for me. I had to accept that I could never become the 'normal-social' drinker I was decades ago.

For me, it wasn't about 'willpower' (which neuroscience says is a depleting power - especially when tired and stressed): It was about WON'T POWER.

I won't kick my dog, I won't kick my cat, I won't steal;, I won't etc., to include I WON'T drink. And that WON'T is now subsumed into my cells, so it finally, finally, became easier, and the 'tools' weren't needed because the cravings - my AV - lessened, and became easily demisable as another of the 70,000 thoughts that pass through a human beings head each day.

And my outside life, beyond my control is a zillion times worse than when I stopped drinking. But I still won't drink, and the occasional AV thoughts of a drink, are noted and ignored, and I remain calm and collected in my own presence. Meditation has assisted me immensely in reaching this state of equanimity.

To summarise, for me, stopping drinking had to be an inside job, because if I made it an outside job, what if that support dropped away? What then? Probably drink and die. It's all about locus of control for me., locus centric it had to be. I couldn't drink if I was forced by an outside agent, but that state took decades and a false start. Won't power, for me. Having said that, support is wonderful and very valued in the early stages of learning sobriety and equanimity.
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Old 11-25-2020, 11:31 AM
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Some great posts again, thank you! I really like the discussion on the "moral" aspects of maintaining an addiction. I know they say addition is not a moral failure (and it certainly isn't), but it clearly causes many. One of the things that led to that stage last weekend when I admitted all this was just not being able to tolerate myself anymore (the culmination of a very rough week prior), in a moral sense. Not just getting tired with maintaining the ever-growing lies and getting lost in them, but the gigantic dissonance internally between my values and how I was living my life.

We discussed something similar in my SMART meeting last night and I found it very helpful there as well. I do have a conscience and a sense of responsibility... that's actually one of the things I like about myself and many other people who know me as well. I had this core element in my youth, and don't feel it has been damaged very badly by all the drinking... more twisted and distorted. The huge dissonance between my moral sense and real behavior was a major component of what precipitated finally coming out with all this. Could not bear it any longer. I think this will be a useful tune on that tape I can play through when I have the urges. The good thing, as I mentioned before, is that I don't really shame and self-hatred now. Getting truthful and starting to really address the addiction has been an excellent remedy for that! I think this is not useless overthinking and it is really very simple.
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Old 11-25-2020, 11:35 AM
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That is profound, Tatsy. Thank you so much for sharing your perspective.

((((aellyce2)))) you're doing some great work.
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Old 11-25-2020, 04:46 PM
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I found what seems like a really nice AA group tonight! I will go back to this one. I was quite out of it all day and attending this meeting changed my mood quite a bit, now I feel quite refreshed. I think this going to Zoom meetings every day at ~the same time is a very good idea for me.
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Old 11-25-2020, 04:58 PM
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That's awesome. I'm glad you found that.
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Old 11-25-2020, 06:39 PM
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hi Aellyce, I've been thinking a lot about your question from a couple days ago ... regarding whether it works to just 'use willpower' a when craving hits, or does one need to do other things? Honestly it's hard for me to answer, because I only know what worked for me, and I have changed my approach over time. When I quit, I knew I needed a plan of action to deal with my 'witching hour' (right after work when I would start drinking wine). The only method I had heard of was AA, so I used that -- there was a meeting near me that met every day at 6 pm, and I went nearly every day for the first few months. I also read the books, got a sponsor, worked the steps, took on service commitments, etc -- did almost everything that was suggested. Although I had a few cravings, I had some tools that worked (eat a snack, call someone, take a walk, play the tape, etc). After ~16 months sober, I started looking around at other approaches here on SR. I adopted AVRT at that point, which has been my main approach since then, which works in a different way as you know. When I made that choice, I read everything I could about AVRT - -all the long threads pinned at the top of the AVRT forum, the books, etc. I immersed myself in it and asked questions here on SR.

The SR community is proof that there are many ways to get sober. If I look for the commonalities among those who have successfully quit, it seems to me (just my impression and opinion) that most of those who successfully quit have some kind of plan. They have some kind of framework through which they understand their addiction and how they're going to deal with cravings. Whatever that framework is, they fully embrace it. It can be custom made - some people combine different tools and approaches. But whatever it is, they use it very actively and make whatever changes they have to make for it to work.
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Old 11-26-2020, 07:54 AM
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That's interesting tursiops, thanks for sharing. I am definitely re-reading the main recovery literature and adding new books. Found one recently called The Addiction Spectrum, written by a doctor who is a recovered alcoholic (also his son) that I am particularly excited to get into as it seems to click pretty well with my views about addiction. I'm curious about his particular suggestions for recovery.

The Addiction Spectrum: A Compassionate, Holistic Approach to Recovery by Paul Thomas and Jennifer Margulis.


I have never been against any of the recovery methods out there and easily see value in all of them, my problem is that I studied them to death but never really applied to myself before. I am very open to trying anything now, but need more than just trying. I personally find that the cognitive exercises in AVRT are helpful for me when the cravings are relatively mild, but those real monster ones that always do me in need much more than that for me. So far, I've only had two of those bad urges this week and many minor, passing ones. I did use a variety of tools for the bad ones and they really helped. It's always fascinating when they pass, how fine line there is between giving in and getting through unscathed. Dealing with an urge well is bending that fine line in the right direction, in a way.

Completely agree about the plan, my thing though is that I always make hundreds of plans (even my profession involves making all sorts of plans and strategies), can give good advice to others, but did not implement my own plans in the past. So that's what I need to work on the most now.

I also wanted to say that I'm sorry I don't respond in detail and individually to the many very thoughtful posts on this thread - I do this to remain focused on what's the most important NOW, not to get distracted much, and not to overcomplicate things as most of you suggested Day 5 is looking good so far, better than yesterday.

Last edited by Dee74; 11-26-2020 at 11:29 AM. Reason: Removed commercial link
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Old 11-26-2020, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Aellyce2 View Post
...I personally find that the cognitive exercises in AVRT are helpful for me when the cravings are relatively mild, but those real monster ones that always do me in need much more than that for me. So far, I've only had two of those bad urges this week and many minor, passing ones. ...
I suppose in a broad sense AVRT is a “cognitive” exercise, but all it really is is a simple binary Re-Cognitive Technique. You think about your thinking about drinking by sorting those thoughts and feelings into two obvious categories - those supporting drinking anytime in the future and those supporting not drinking at any time in the future. The category supporting drinking is the old bad habit of loving and repeating that deep pleasure from ethanol in the blood called the Beast. The category supporting not drinking ever again is YOU, the complex sentient human being that is capable of second order thinking (re-cognition) and using (as Tatsy has summed up) WON’T power. I would go even further and call WON’Ting the desire to drink a non-act of simple thought that requires no power, just inhibitory willfulness.

In the quote from your post above you will notice I highlighted the single word that indicates it is just a matter of time before one of those monster (Beastly) cravings will do you in by YOU playing the keystone role of going along with IT and actually putting the ethanol in your mouth and swallowing it. (AAHHHhhhh, MMMmmmm, YES!)

My point here is, the simple thought process of changing that do to a did and putting the verb tense of YOU and drinking always into the past tense is simple and effortless, and it allows YOU to feel what is odd, refreshing, hopeful, unbelievable, sad, etc. about using the past tense when you have always been using the present tense about future drinking up to now. Then you will have further opportunity to simply think about those emotions and sort them out as well into the two categories I mentioned above.

This simple separation technique gives addicted people incredible clarity about what is going on during those critical minutes when that desire to drink comes up in the future; IF they choose to use it. And it need not have anything to do with what’s going on in the rest of your life. Keeping being a permanent abstainer a secret in your life is a lot easier than keeping being a dependent drinker a secret. I know from experience. And I know you can learn to know that as well.
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Old 11-26-2020, 10:41 AM
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That's a very good point regarding speaking about this in present vs. past tense. Thanks. I totally see what you mean and definitely, what we say and how we say it can have profound effects on motivation and decisions, even if unconsciously. But I can choose my words consciously, as well as the act of not doing anything in the direction of drinking.

Also changed my avatar to reflect all this, because the old one represented too much the many years of ambivalence I had, which is not an option now
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Old 11-26-2020, 11:20 AM
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Nice avatar Aellyce. Stay on the beam!

I like your idea to attend a meeting at the same time of day every day. Sober rituals form a foundation for not just one sober day but for a sober life.

I hope you enjoy the sunny Thanksgiving afternoon in NYC -- maybe a walk to the river (one or the other) and contemplation of all that we've been spared is in order. (& I'll be taking my own advice.)
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Old 11-27-2020, 10:55 AM
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I did go for a nice walk yesterday courage, and will do this afternoon as well. But have a related question. I experienced something interesting around the meetings I attend now and would like to ask for feedback. I really do find these meetings helpful and scheduling them around the same time each day also helps with the routine. Earlier this week, I always had them in the late afternoon. Sometimes I feel quite exhausted and out of it during the 2-3 hours before my meetings and have impulses to skip the meeting altogether. I noticed earlier in the week that I always feel refreshed and more focused afterward though, and this definitely reinforces my determination to attend. So this morning I wanted to get out and go for a walk earlier but started feeling pretty unmotivated and just laying around getting some work done and surfing the web. I remembered how I tend to feel after the meetings, so decided to find an AA meeting now OUTSIDE of my schedule, early in the day, and went there instead of what I planned originally. It did work, and I do feel better now, and will definitely go out because I'm excited about it again and it's a beautiful day here.

The question I have, and perhaps this is a bit overanalyzing, but I want to be cautious... Is it a good idea to use recovery meetings to change my mood spontaneously? Of course it's definitely a much healthier method than drinking, drugs and other questionable behaviors. It just occurred to me that I used the meeting today in the same way (to change my mood/feelings), and I don't want to now condition myself to "self-medicate" with them in the moment when, I think, it might serve me well to just sit with the feelings and figure out self-directed ways to get into action and implement my plan. At the same time, this may not be a bad idea early on... but you know how quickly we addicts develop habits...

Any thoughts? Now I will indeed go for my walk and listen to recordings from a very nice meditation retreat I attended 2 weeks ago (sadly, I decided to get drunk at the end so I missed some of it, but luckily have these records that I can revisit). I do still plan to attend the other meeting later today that was originally scheduled, because I don't think it's a good idea to start messing with my plan more.
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Old 11-27-2020, 11:54 AM
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Aellyce, I just spent a really long and unsuccessful time searching for that part of Infinite Jest where DFW (not the airport) writes about addiction to attending AA meetings, and how an addict/alcoholic can go into infinite regression to a small room with one chair, worrying about being addicted to sitting down.

There's no harm in going 3 or 5 times a day, if it gets you through a day sober.

Infinite Jest has some of the best writing on addiction and 12-step programs ever. Have you read it?
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Old 11-27-2020, 01:59 PM
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Haha courage, point taken I just also sometimes remember how I misused (excessively) SR in the past, and for a very long time... But I guess it's fine to use these things in any way as long as I stay sober, the problem is if I drink and especially if I lie about it.

I heard of Infinite Jest but haven't read it yet - thanks for the recommendation, just dowloaded a free copy. I definitely need things that are a bit more lighthearted and fun because I've been so preoccupied with everything recovery all week in many ways, sometimes it gets a bit overwhelming. This book seems fun yet relevant.

I also just received a hard copy of a SMART Handbook that the facilitator of the meeting I attended on Tuesday sent me for free. I've already started using some of the SMART tools earlier this week and find them very helpful, it's easy/natural for me to use this stuff (because it's inherently introspective/analytical) and I find it interesting, engaging and often a good distraction when I am in the middle of a craving.
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Old 11-27-2020, 02:29 PM
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There were times earlier this year that I was so ill at ease, I knew going to a meeting was exactly the right thing to do. There were also times when I went to back to back meetings for hours. Whatever works.

I think as long as you don't fall into acting like all you need to do is punch in on the time clock, it's all good.

I found a 7am daily meeting that I really like and attend it almost every day. It's a good way to avoid those "I don't wanna" inclinations. Also, I think people who go to early morning meetings are pretty reliably serious about this sobriety thing. Not to say evening people aren't, but you know what I mean.
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Old 11-27-2020, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Aellyce2 View Post
I heard of Infinite Jest but haven't read it yet - thanks for the recommendation, just dowloaded a free copy. I definitely need things that are a bit more lighthearted and fun because I've been so preoccupied with everything recovery all week in many ways, sometimes it gets a bit overwhelming. This book seems fun yet relevant.
I'm not sure what you downloaded. There's nothing remotely lighthearted about David Foster Wallace's Infinite Jest. I don't think.
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Old 11-27-2020, 05:42 PM
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I haven't read Infinite Jest yet so I've ordered it from my library
Thanks for the suggestion Cour
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Old 11-27-2020, 07:34 PM
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haven’t read Infinite Jest, but considered it. got discouraged by the length and what sounded like a rather tough slog. no, sure didn’t sound lighthearted!
Aellyce, in new sobriety i very much liked the Lifering Secular Recovery workbook, Martin Nicolaus “Recovery by Choice”.
easy to order through www.lifering.org.
a whole bunch of good questions to work through, topics to explore preconceived ideas and such. well worth the money and time.
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Old 11-28-2020, 06:07 AM
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I definitely downloaded the right Infinite Jest (you can do that for free on Library Genesis). I guess "lighthearted" is not the right word, I just saw it described as a book that has good humor, but probably of the dark kind (which I like even better). Will see for myself.

Thanks fini for suggesting the Lifering book, I will probably get it because I very much enjoy the exercises in SMART as well. I create spreadsheets for them on my computer so I can always add to what I record as time goes by. It's not like I have never thought of and done similar things before, but it is different now in the specific situation I am in, and truly using it to support my sobriety. I also want to try a Lifering meeting.

O - I actually meant to use the afternoon meeting scheduling to improve my own discipline. Doing anything in the mornings (when I am sober) is always the easiest for me, I am a morning person and my motivation tends to be naturally higher in the first half of the day. I was thinking it's good to attend meetings later in the afternoon, especially now with the shorter days during the winter, when doing anything outside is not such a good option. Luckily I am not prone to winter depression, but sometimes didn't know what to do with my evenings and drank just out of boredom. The later meetings can also help me unwind and relax in the evening. The timing does not really matter in terms of when I used to drink and get craving now - that can be anytime, I had no set schedule for the drinking and my brain also does not seem to care when it wants to flood me with urges. But I do have a few major, very predictable triggers. For example, many things related to a job that I have wanted to get rid of for a long time now, but was just as ambivalent about it as about drinking/sobriety, for years.

Speaking of making significant life changes for a successful recovery... So now, finally, I am quitting that job early in March. It took ages because I had so many responsibilities associated with it, projects and people depending on me, but finally I'm close. I so look forward to being free from that job even though I'll still need to work on finishing some projects... but will do that at my own pace. It also gives me a lot of constructive preoccupation and tasks to work on setting up the next phase of my career, where I plan to be 100% self-employed. There is a lot to do about this right now and all of it is very practical. I just wiIl probably share with you guys some of my feelings regarding that old job and leaving it now, because it's quite interesting and related to addiction and recovery.
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Old 11-28-2020, 06:18 AM
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How are you doing today Aellyce2?

Your posts on my thread and on your own are going to be fuel to support me in not using marijuana today.

How about we get through today together - sober, clean and present.

Happy Sober Saturday!

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