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Are we sending the wrong messages to new people? 12 viewpoints

Old 10-24-2020, 07:42 PM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Literature is why I keep relapsing. I make it to 3 weeks, 4 weeks. I watched that documentary 'Rain in my heart' That made me relapse. When I heard the doctor say once you're in cirrhosis that it's a progressive disease. Even if you never have a drink again in your life you'll be dead in 10-15 years. Ok so then what is the point? Also reading about how I might have done permanent damage to my neurological and endocrine system. And that my skin is going to look ****** for the rest of my life. I'll stop for about a month thinking about my daughter, but then I can't stop reading all of these awful negative things and I don't see the point in quitting. I won't have a quality of life and I can either die now when she will forget or wait until she's a teenager to slowly deteriorate.
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Old 10-24-2020, 09:55 PM
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There are people here who've survived cirrosis Relena, and have had many other things improve too.
it can take longer than we want sometimes, but improvement happens.

Very few of us would stay sober if that was not the case.

That voice that tells you it's hopeless, lies.
If you need support after reading something that scares you, post here - let us help

D
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Old 10-24-2020, 10:20 PM
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The Brain and Alcohol Consumption

There is extensive research that has investigated the effects of alcohol use on the brain from the cellular level all the way up to its effects on major areas of the brain and various neural networks. Chronic use and abuse of alcohol:
  • Is associated with damage to the neurons in all areas of the brain
  • Inhibits the functioning of every brain mechanism
  • Alters the activity of the neural pathways in the brain
  • Results in an increased risk to develop neurological diseases and disorders, such as seizures, stroke, brain cancer, and dementia

The National Institutes of Health (NIH) reports that former abusers who abstain from alcohol for several months to a year may experience partial correction of some of these structural changes. The effects of abstinence from alcohol typically peak and are maintained after 5-7 years of complete abstinence, although the most salient effects occur within the first year. However, any further damage due to alcohol abuse is also negated if one stops drinking. Nonetheless, many of the changes that have occurred in the brain are not completely remitted.

The determination of how much physiological and functional impairment someone who has abused alcohol will continue to experience is dependent on:
  • The length of time the person abused alcohol and how much alcohol was typically consumed
  • Whether or not the individual used alcohol in conjunction with other drugs, including tobacco
  • Family history and genetic factors
  • Other general health factors, such as the individual’s dietary habits, the amount of exercise they typically get, the presence of any co-occurring conditions, etc.
One condition that is often attributed to individuals who drink alcohol excessively is Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome where individuals have issues with walking, nystagmus, and cognitive problems that include severe confusion and dense amnesia. This condition is not directly related to the use of alcohol but represents a chronic lack of proper nutrition in those who neglect their diet due to severe alcohol use. The condition has been associated with a lack of thiamine (vitamin B1); if it is recognized early enough, it may be reversed through diet and supplementation. However, if the condition represents a chronic situation, the condition may not resolve even with the use of megavitamin supplementation.

Cardiovascular Issues and Alcoholism

The American Heart Association (AHA) lists numerous cardiovascular issues associated with alcohol use and abuse. In addition, there is conflicting research about potential benefits associated with mild to moderate alcohol use. AHA strongly suggests that despite some of these research findings, individuals should not begin drinking alcohol in an attempt to improve their cardiovascular health, and individuals with cardiovascular issues should stop drinking alcohol altogether.

Some of the potential cardiovascular issues associated with using alcohol include:
  • Hypertension: High blood pressure is often associated with the use of alcohol. Having high blood pressure is a risk factor for numerous other related health conditions. Many individuals who stop drinking alcohol, become involved in formal treatment that may involve the use of medications, and take on various other lifestyle changes, such as maintaining a healthy diet and getting sufficient exercise, can correct this situation relatively quickly.
  • Alcoholic cardiomyopathy: Chronic heavy drinking weakens the heart muscle and reduces its effectiveness in pumping blood. The symptoms of cardiomyopathy can include feeling short of breath, fatigue, an irregular heartbeat, and swelling in the legs and feet. Individuals who stop drinking alcohol and get treatment can reverse some of these symptoms to some extent, but in chronic cases, cardiomyopathy may be permanent.
  • Arrhythmias: Irregular heartbeat is associated with chronic alcohol abuse. Again, individuals who abstain from alcohol and get treatment can reverse this issue to some extent, particularly within the first year of recovery. However, the damage may not be entirely reversed.
  • High cholesterol levels: High cholesterol levels are associated with chronic use and abuse of alcohol. Abstaining from alcohol in addition to other forms of treatment, such as dietary changes and the use of medication, can help to reverse this issue. Moderate to heavy use of alcohol is also associated with obesity, which is linked to high cholesterol levels, hypertension, heartbeat irregularities, and increased potential for heart attack.
  • Heart attack or sudden cardiac death: Individuals who are moderate to heavy alcohol users are at increased risk for death due to heart attack. This risk is exponentially increased if individuals use tobacco products and drink alcohol. The risk drops significantly in the first year after one abstains from alcohol; however, cardiac damage may not be fully resolved. Individuals with a history of alcohol abuse are at an increased risk for later heart attacks compared to individuals who never abused alcohol. In addition, all of the other factors listed in this section increase the risk that an individual may experience a heart attack.
The same factors associated with recovery from neurological damage as a result of abstaining from alcohol apply to recovery from cardiovascular issues when one chooses to abstain from alcohol. However, in most cases, the full extent of the damage produced by chronic and heavy alcohol use on the cardiovascular system is not fully resolved. Typically, any reversal of damage occurs rapidly in the first months to the first year of abstinence and then slows down following that. Individuals need to also pay attention to other lifestyle factors, such as diet, exercise, getting plenty of rest, stress management, etc., in order to experience their full potential of recovery.

Alcohol Use and The Liver

It has long been observed that excessive use of alcohol affects the liver. The liver is the major organ in the body that is responsible for eliminating waste products and other toxic substances from the system. When an individual drinks excessive amounts of alcohol, the person’s liver begins to metabolize the alcohol in order to rid the toxin from the body. Alcohol is metabolized before other substances, and the liver needs to work excessively hard to perform its functions when a person drinks large amounts of alcohol.

When the liver becomes overworked, it loses its efficiency, and damage occurs that produces scar tissue and fatty deposits in the organ. If enough scar tissue develops, the liver cannot work properly, and the person is in serious danger.

Cirrhosis of the liver occurs when there is so much scar tissue that the liver can no longer properly perform its functions. Research suggests that if individuals begin a program of abstinence early enough, mild liver damage may not be serious enough to cause issues; however, more severe liver damage, including cirrhosis of the liver, cannot be rectified in many cases unless the individual can get a liver transplant. Individuals who suffer from cirrhosis of the liver have a potentially fatal condition.

In addition, significant liver damage affects all other organs of the body, including the brain. Individuals who have significant liver damage often develop severe issues with attention, memory, and problem-solving that qualifies them for a diagnosis of dementia.

Ulcers

Inflammation that occurs in the gastrointestinal tract, particularly in the lining of the stomach, is known as gastritis. Alcohol use is associated with the development of gastritis, and if this inflammation continues for extended periods of time, abscesses and other damage may occur as a result. This is due to excessive stomach acids that build up in the gastrointestinal tract.

When this damage becomes chronic, the individual develops ulcers. Ulcers can be very uncomfortable, and if not treated, they can create a life-threatening condition. Unless they are extremely serious, gastritis and ulcers can be reversed through treatment and abstinence from alcohol, although there will most likely be some scar tissue remaining in the individual’s gastrointestinal tract.

Osteoporosis

Osteoporosis occurs when a person’s bones decrease in density and become more brittle and prone to breaking. Although the disorder is most often diagnosed in elderly individuals, it can occur in younger individuals as well. Women are at a higher risk to develop osteoporosis than men, but both men and women can develop the disorder.

Excessive use of alcohol interferes with calcium metabolism and absorption, and this is a risk factor associated with the development of osteoporosis. Alcohol also interferes with hormone production that can lead to elevated levels of cortisol that can deplete levels of calcium in an individual’s system.

The most effective way to treat osteoporosis is to prevent it from happening in the first place (as is the case with most disorders); however, individuals who have developed osteoporosis should refrain from drinking alcohol and seek treatment. Getting formal treatment for osteoporosis can reverse its effects to some extent; however, individuals with severe osteoporosis will most likely have issues with walking, be prone to bone fractures, and have issues with pain.

What are the Psychological Effects of Alcohol?

According to the American Psychiatric Association (APA), abuse of alcohol is strongly associated with a co-occurring diagnosis of another mental health disorder. Whether or not this association is causal, such that drinking alcohol causes an individual to develop other psychological issues or having some other psychological issue causes a person to drink alcohol excessively, is strongly debated. As it turns out, both of these explanations are likely.

Nonetheless, individuals with any form of mental illness can increase the effectiveness of their recovery by refraining from alcohol use, and individuals with alcohol use disorders can enhance their recovery by getting treatment for any co-occurring issues with depression, bipolar disorder, stress, etc. Recovery from any mental health disorder is significantly enhanced if an individual does not drink alcohol. The rate and quality of recovery from a mental health disorder depends on a number of factors, including the person’s motivation, their engagement in treatment, their social support, etc.

Social and Occupational Damage

Sources such as NIH and APA also consistently report that excessive use of alcohol is associated with numerous social issues and problems with one’s career or education. When an individual’s use of alcohol begins to affect areas of their social, educational, and occupational functioning, it is strongly advised that the person stop drinking. Some of the damage that occurs in these areas as a result of a person’s alcohol abuse may never be completely resolved (e.g., such as individuals who get divorced, become estranged from family, lose their job, etc.); however, individuals who are dedicated to improving themselves can go on to improve their functioning in these areas, develop new contacts, and learn to live productive lives.

In the same way, some of the emotional damage that occurs as a result of the dissolution of a marriage, lost contact with family, loss of a job etc., may never be fully resolved; however, individuals in solid recovery programs learn to move forward and accept the past. The length of time that it takes to address or correct this type of damage varies from person to person and from situation to situation.

In Summary

Alcohol abuse is associated with numerous health issues, emotional problems, social problems, and psychological issues. In some cases, if an individual can abstain from drinking alcohol, a significant amount of the damage that has occurred may resolve; however, in other instances, significant damage may remain. It is safe to assume that individuals who have a history of alcohol abuse also have to learn to cope with numerous alcohol-related physical, emotional, and social issues for a significant length of time even if they abstain from drinking alcohol. Getting involved in a strong recovery program and adhering to treatment can help individuals realize the full extent of their potential in recovery from alcohol abuse.
americanaddictioncenters.org
You may be 35 years old chronologically, but your body tells the doctor that you are 45 biologically. Biological age is determined by biomarkers of aging, which are age-related changes that take into account an individual’s physical age and predictors of the onset of age-related diseases. Not only does drug and alcohol addiction wreak havoc on your physical appearance, but it triggers the premature onset of age-related diseases as well, such as liver, kidney and cardiovascular disease.
I'm 32 but have been told I look like i'm 18 since I was well, 18. I've always taken good care of my skin. I never skipped a night of my skin regimen, or in the morning no matter how drunk or hungover I was. I wear sunblock every day. I don't even go swimming or participate in outdoor activities. Somehow when I quit drinking my wrinkles started to appear more noticeable. My acne has come back with a vengeance. The overall texture is red, blotchy, and waxy looking. After 4 weeks of sobriety I looked even worse. Skin was horrible, hair was dry and brittle. I can't stand the thought of living the rest of my life like this. You can call me vain and try for the rest of your life to convince me this doesn't matter, but to me it does.
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Old 10-24-2020, 11:06 PM
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I understand how stuff like that can scare you but a lot of damage can be halted, even reversed with continued abstinence,

I'm not a Doctor, but while I'm sure there's nothing there in that quote that's wrong, Dr Google will often give you the worst case scenario.

I have hypertension, but I had that before my first drink....it's controlled now by meds and my BP is perfect.
Similarly my cholesterol is naturally high but it runs in my family - good diet and meds keep that good now as well.

I don;t have any social occupational or psychological damage now I'm sober.

Despite drinking for decades the doctors assure me my liver is fine - go figure.

Scaring people, even in a noble giving out information sense, means more clicks for sites which is what Googles all about.

I'm not saying all this to make you feel bad - I'm just trying to share my belief things get better.
My source is not some website, but my own experience

I'm not much about how I look - I'm male and heading to 60 - but if it matters to you it's important, relena.

Like said it takes time tho - you're giving it 3 weeks or four weeks - but what if your skin clearing up, eyes getting brighter, organs repairing (if they need to) may take longer than that?

D
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Old 10-25-2020, 12:01 AM
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I appreciate you still taking my feelings into consideration. I know a lot of people think it's shallow, vain, tell me so many people would trade places with me in a heartbeat to be able to live even with all the skin disorders. With all of the physical and mental pain I endure. I had my first panic attack at the age of 5. By the time I was 10 I was already on antidepressants because I was relentlessly bullied for my acne. It became so bad I had to homeschool.

My skin cleared up and I had a normal life. I started getting attention from boys, people treated me so much different in general. Children didn't recoil from me. It made me place so much importance on my physical appearance because I didn't remember waking up happy like that since I was very young. I touched alcohol at 23, drank normally until I was 25 or 26 and then I had a problem. Acne was something I couldn't control. I couldn't just wash my face or go see a dermatologist. A dermatologist eventually did solve my problem, but it took almost a decade to find the right one. But I could have simply stopped drinking and saved myself so much pain and heartache. Living every day knowing that I did this to myself and there's nothing I can do to fix it makes me never want to wake up in the morning.

I want to go longer sober, more than anything but I have so many unanswered questions. I can't afford any doctor except doctor google. And I hate that I keep finding so many websites that make me throw my hands up in the air and wonder why am I even doing this. And since no case is the same it's not like I can just compare my situation to anyone else's.
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Old 10-25-2020, 12:23 AM
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If you stay sober tho you might be able to put some money aside to see someone to get the script for what ever worked before?

one thing is for sure - things are not likely to get better if you keep drinking - I know you said you think your skin was better as a drinker but that's not a great reason to keep drinking, especially if you have a child who needs a parent.

I can't give you a guarantee but I'm confident things will look better for you, inside and out after a couple of months sober

D

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Old 10-25-2020, 12:34 AM
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This is dark stuff indeed.

It’d be a very poor doctor who says cirrhosis is a death sentence, and even that dreaded* condition is manageable, but drinking alcohol will cause further damage so would have to stop. I post on a liver forum, and people often say they have lesser conditions such as fatty liver or their blood test results are high, and then they follow up by asking if they can still drink x glasses of wine a week, etc. The answer, even if their GPs are too battle weary to say it, is no.

* Without wishing to make this thread a bit darker, cirrhosis has to be in every drinker’s mind. It really has zero symptoms until it’s reached an irreversible stage. We can analyse why we drink, speak to counsellors to get to the bottom of why we drink, etc, but whilst continuing to drink, the liver is struggling to cope. Reading about those who went from no symptoms at all one month to being told they need a liver transplant the next was enough for me to quit forever.
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Old 10-25-2020, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by relena View Post
I want to go longer sober, more than anything but I have so many unanswered questions. I can't afford any doctor except doctor google. And I hate that I keep finding so many websites that make me throw my hands up in the air and wonder why am I even doing this. And since no case is the same it's not like I can just compare my situation to anyone else's.
More than anything huh? Well, AA is free. So now what excuse do you have?
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Old 10-25-2020, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by relena View Post
I'm 32 but have been told I look like i'm 18 since I was well, 18. I've always taken good care of my skin. I never skipped a night of my skin regimen, or in the morning no matter how drunk or hungover I was. I wear sunblock every day. I don't even go swimming or participate in outdoor activities. Somehow when I quit drinking my wrinkles started to appear more noticeable. My acne has come back with a vengeance. The overall texture is red, blotchy, and waxy looking. After 4 weeks of sobriety I looked even worse. Skin was horrible, hair was dry and brittle. I can't stand the thought of living the rest of my life like this. You can call me vain and try for the rest of your life to convince me this doesn't matter, but to me it does.
I've read that it's quite common to have bad skin in early sobriety because your body is flushing out all the toxins. It can clear up in time. Give it time.
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Old 10-25-2020, 05:47 AM
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Sobriety and a wonderful life as a recovered (AA definition) alcoholic is entirely possible. Stay sober every day and get working an efficacious recovery program such as the 12 steps with honesty, open-mindedness and willingness and you can have a great life. What anybody else says on any other FB pages is immaterial once you know that in my experience.
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Old 10-25-2020, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by freedomfries View Post
I've read that it's quite common to have bad skin in early sobriety because your body is flushing out all the toxins. It can clear up in time. Give it time.
I agree with this. '

Definitely give it time. With sobriety, your life will get better but patience is key. It takes time.
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Old 10-25-2020, 07:54 AM
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I agree with the original poster.
That being said, each persons sobriety and how they get there is unique to them. Whatever works for a person cannot be debated. Not that the original poster was saying such things.

Good for you on 5 years! It is a blessing. I hope that you continue to post what you have found to be truthful for you.
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Old 10-25-2020, 08:16 AM
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And since no case is the same it's not like I can just compare my situation to anyone else's.
Even if no case is the same, there are still similarities. Looking at the differences kept me drinking. It reaffirmed to me that I was unique...terminally unique.

When I started to look for the similarities, I found them and I found help, because it meant I was not alone. There were others who had faced difficulties and had overcome them.

Even though, in my head, my struggles were different...they weren't! It was a huge burden off of me to be part of the recovery community and no longer alone.






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Old 10-25-2020, 08:23 AM
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"I take the meat that serves me, but I don't choke on a bone."

That got me so far and helped me so much. I've found what works for me, and that's all we can do. Even with over a year under my belt, I still get very uncomfortable when people lay down "the only way to get sober" or "the only way to stay sober". I work my program, a program of what I need. My approach isn't going to work for everyone. I still attend online AA meetings a few times a week - but I just take what works for me, and I share that while we all have the same disease, what led us to it, and what will keep us sober can look very different.

I didn't work the steps. Some would consider me a dry drunk. I've been sober over a year and I'm happy, healthy, and excited about my life. Many with AUD have gotten sober without AA. And, I'm rambling lol.

My point is that while the big book says otherwise, numerous ways to get and to stay sober exist. I like AA because it's helpful for me to be around others like me - but a lot of it I let go in one ear and out the other. To me, the only universal thing needed to get sober is a desire to be sober. Out of that, AA, therapy, friends, rehab, etc, etc, etc are all options. That Facebook group sounds annoying, I wouldn't stick around for it, but remember when we were kind of thinking about sobriety but weren't ready to commit? We did the same things, most likely, only it wasn't public.

Donny :-)
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Old 10-25-2020, 08:24 AM
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Dr. Google will always take a person down the path of worst case scenario.
You look up why your foot hurts and Dr. Google will tell you that its terminal cancer and you have one week to live.
Stay off of Dr. Google.
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Old 10-25-2020, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by relena View Post
Literature is why I keep relapsing. I make it to 3 weeks, 4 weeks. I watched that documentary 'Rain in my heart' That made me relapse. When I heard the doctor say once you're in cirrhosis that it's a progressive disease. Even if you never have a drink again in your life you'll be dead in 10-15 years. Ok so then what is the point? Also reading about how I might have done permanent damage to my neurological and endocrine system. And that my skin is going to look ****** for the rest of my life. I'll stop for about a month thinking about my daughter, but then I can't stop reading all of these awful negative things and I don't see the point in quitting. I won't have a quality of life and I can either die now when she will forget or wait until she's a teenager to slowly deteriorate.
I have only empathy for what u are going through. Sometimes hope is out of reach and we may have to believe in something. I hope you can find peace without going into a death spiral of sadness and suffering. Sending you healing thoughts and blessed be dear precious one.
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Old 10-25-2020, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by BeABetterMan View Post
More than anything huh? Well, AA is free. So now what excuse do you have?
Wow thanks. AA made me horribly uncomfortable and they're not holding meetings.

Originally Posted by Hodd View Post
This is dark stuff indeed.

It’d be a very poor doctor who says cirrhosis is a death sentence, and even that dreaded* condition is manageable, but drinking alcohol will cause further damage so would have to stop. I post on a liver forum, and people often say they have lesser conditions such as fatty liver or their blood test results are high, and then they follow up by asking if they can still drink x glasses of wine a week, etc. The answer, even if their GPs are too battle weary to say it, is no.

* Without wishing to make this thread a bit darker, cirrhosis has to be in every drinker’s mind. It really has zero symptoms until it’s reached an irreversible stage. We can analyse why we drink, speak to counsellors to get to the bottom of why we drink, etc, but whilst continuing to drink, the liver is struggling to cope. Reading about those who went from no symptoms at all one month to being told they need a liver transplant the next was enough for me to quit forever.
Guess i'll have to move back to Colorado and hope I have enough time to qualify for a prescription under physician-assisted dying laws if that happens.

Originally Posted by Dee74 View Post
If you stay sober tho you might be able to put some money aside to see someone to get the script for what ever worked before?

one thing is for sure - things are not likely to get better if you keep drinking - I know you said you think your skin was better as a drinker but that's not a great reason to keep drinking, especially if you have a child who needs a parent.

I can't give you a guarantee but I'm confident things will look better for you, inside and out after a couple of months sober

D
I had to quit my job back in June as a barber because Covid cases were so out of control. I have almost nothing in my bank account.

Study Projects Up To Half a Million U.S. Coronavirus Deaths by End of February

I've been trying to find a job where I can social distance and work safely since June. I live with my senior citizen parents, no luck. I made the mistake of spending some of my money on cheap booze. So many people aren't taking this seriously. Going sober should be easier this time. I'm terrified to leave my house except to take out the trash.
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Old 10-25-2020, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by BornSurvivor View Post
I agree with this. '

Definitely give it time. With sobriety, your life will get better but patience is key. It takes time.
Thank you to both of you. Drinking green smoothies and staying hydrated. Also simplified my skincare. I hope it pays off.

Originally Posted by nez View Post
Even if no case is the same, there are still similarities. Looking at the differences kept me drinking. It reaffirmed to me that I was unique...terminally unique.

When I started to look for the similarities, I found them and I found help, because it meant I was not alone. There were others who had faced difficulties and had overcome them.

Even though, in my head, my struggles were different...they weren't! It was a huge burden off of me to be part of the recovery community and no longer alone.
I'm really glad you found a place here to get the help and gain the strength to stay clean.

Originally Posted by Zencat View Post
I have only empathy for what u are going through. Sometimes hope is out of reach and we may have to believe in something. I hope you can find peace without going into a death spiral of sadness and suffering. Sending you healing thoughts and blessed be dear precious one.
Thank you so much for your kind words. These are difficult times for everyone I know. I recently went through a break up. I'm trying to keep my toddler entertained. I can't see anyone. I'm trying to come up with projects I can do around the house but everything requires money it seems. I played all my video games, read all my books. I think i've reorganized my room 10 times.
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Old 10-25-2020, 07:51 PM
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Great post! I would add to the subject of time - chronology and sobriety are not the same thing. There are all too many stories of folks who relapse after years of sobriety; my first sponsor did so after 17 years and told me the story when I only had a few months. I appreciate his honesty and have come to really appreciate how we introduce ourselves at meetings: "My name is Eddie and I am (emphasis mine) an alcoholic." The fact that my last drink was a decade ago doesn't make me any less of an alcoholic than someone sitting at the table still shaking from the last drink.

Last but not least... first word of the first step: we. Left to my own devices, I probably would not be here to write this today. Grateful for all the folks who share this journey regardless of how long they've been trudging or by what path they took to get here.

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