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What I've Noticed About Quitting

Old 09-16-2020, 12:22 AM
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What I've Noticed About Quitting

Hi, I visit this forum a lot but rarely post.

I’ve been reading a lot and thinking about will power and free will, and why people like us find it so damn hard to quit.

I put this idea to you.

Individuals (all people) have very little free will and very little will power…if any.

There is a lot to this subject, but I want to keep it relevant to our situation as drinkers.

Everybody knows about nurture and nature shaping an individual. Your genetics and the environment you live in create who you are.

I was born in Australia to my parents and became what I am today. If I were born in China to the same parents, I would be a very different person in many ways, due to the environment.

By environment, I don’t just mean the physical space around you, I mean the people you see and interact with, your family, your job, the books you read, the videos and movies you watch etc.

And even now, If I were to move to another country or join the Army or something, with a drastically different environment to the one that I’m used to, I would change…I may not feel different, but others from my old world would definitely notice the change.

The environment changes us.

To change yourself you MUST change your environment.

You hear all the success stories in this forum, every successful person has changed their environment to succeed. They read the books and watched the videos (not just about quitting the drink but about changing their lives, learning about who they are etc), they ditched their old drinking friends, they stopped visiting pubs and going to parties, they took alternative routes to avoid passing the bottle shops, they joined support groups, they limited their access to money and credit for essentials only and much more.

Now, I’m not saying that it’s as easy as that, you definitely have to do a lot of internal work too, you have to change the way you see yourself and your life. But I can promise you that if you do not change your environment you will never be able to quit.



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Old 09-16-2020, 01:36 AM
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Good to hear from you NoBones - and yep I have no argument with what you're suggesting

D
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Old 09-16-2020, 06:29 AM
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There is often a free will debate going on somewhere on the net. I think it's interesting, but I believe it cannot be resolved. It's mostly a philosophical debate with no real evidence from either side, and no way to test whether or not it exists. Why this debate can get heated is a mystery to me.

I believe I have free will, and that was an integral part of my recovery. If I don't have it, then my recovery was predetermined and it was pointless for me to do anything about my drinking. I would then be bound by fate to live out the rest of my live in a drunken stupor.

As for changing your environment, I remember an old timer saying, "No matter where you go, there you are," implying you can't get away from yourself, but I think this is only true when one sees a geographical change as a cure. Sometimes such a change can fix a lot, but never everything. You still need to make some changes, but while they are subtle, they are much more powerful, especially if you want to quit drinking, and this pretty much depends on free will, IMO.

I will concede that this is not easy, but that's not the same thing as not having free will. Changing is only hard, but not predetermined. Unless you believe it was predetermined, but that to me is downright depressing.
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Old 09-16-2020, 08:15 AM
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To change yourself you MUST change your environment.
I am copacetic with this statement, I just frame it a little bit different to fit with my brains waves. "To change myself I MUST change my thinking." Same thing, only different. But not really, the concept is same,a word is different. By changing my thinking, my environment changes.

For me change comes when I go within and do the work of inner transformation. To examine myself openly, honestly, vulnerably and to purge selfishness, depravity and insecurity. Needless to say I am a work in progress. Nowhere near a completed project!

We but mirror the world. All the tendencies present in the outer world are to be found in the world of our body. If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. – Mahatma Gandhi
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Old 09-16-2020, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by DriGuy View Post
There is often a free will debate going on somewhere on the net. I think it's interesting, but I believe it cannot be resolved. It's mostly a philosophical debate with no real evidence from either side, and no way to test whether or not it exists. Why this debate can get heated is a mystery to me.
Dr McAuley calls addiction a 'disease of choice'. Not that we choose it, but that addiction affects our ability to make choice.

I think neuroscience is making leaps and bounds in answering the free will question, by studying how the brain 'fires'. When I was drinking I didn't have free choice apart from one, and that one was often against my 'choice' - it was NOT TO DRINK AT ALL. As soon as I drink then that choice is taken away from me, physically, but he way receptors in my brain fire.

Im still responsible for my actions, of course. Because I don't have to drink, especially knowing what will happen if I did. I'm responsible but not in control
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Old 09-16-2020, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by NoBones View Post
But I can promise you that if you do not change your environment you will never be able to quit.
Hi,

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

I disagree. I think people are abundant with free will and willpower. It's how we utilize it that stands out and makes the difference. By saying that we don't have these things or have very little of them, you're taking away the only power we have to get sober in the first place. Nothing gets a person clean and sober save their own willpower AND mindset.

My position is that people are massively more powerful than they're aware. Learning to believe it and tap into it is the challenge.
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Old 09-16-2020, 12:29 PM
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To stay sober and have peace of mind an alcoholic has to change everything.
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Old 09-16-2020, 01:24 PM
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Hi and thanks for the replies.

My thoughts are that our free will is much more limited than we want to believe. I like the idea that it all comes down to pain versus pleasure. People will alway choose comfort over discomfort.

When you look at every action that you take honestly, you will notice that you will always choose comfort over discomfort. Even with long term goals, you will weigh the cost of the pain to reach your goal against the reward, if the reward is great enough, you will take the hard path to get there, if you decide the reward is not worth the suffering, you won't.

In that moment that you choose to drink, it's because it offers comfort/pleasure in that moment. Even if it's just relieving a long standing habit, without emotion.

So what I'm trying to say is that if you leave those well worn and comfortable alcoholic paths and options open to you, your chances of living a sober life are very slim.

And I agree with nez, in that the change can happen the other way around. You can start changing your internal world (the way you think) and soon your external world (the environment) will start to change too.


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Old 09-16-2020, 01:34 PM
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Nice discussion, 'bones.
I believe environment and habit are often intertwined.
Squatting on a bar stool every day after work is likely not going to help one on the path to sobriety. Or, sitting in front of the TV with a bottle of Jack every evening...

Physical change often is required. Got to shake things up.
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Old 09-16-2020, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ZIP View Post
Got to shake things up.​
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Absolutely!

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Old 09-17-2020, 04:33 PM
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I dont know how successful my recovery would have been if I didnt move to a new state.

I lived alone in my own apartment a couple of blocks away from a big party strip of bars where I knew bartenders and the regulars. Many nights I would lay down to sleep but a simple social media message from the bar asking me if I was coming over was enough to get me up, throw on some clothes and walk in within 10 minutes. Close to midnight, Id leave the bar and walk about 50 feet next door to a liquor store and buy a bottle and a 12 pack and take it into one of the bars to be stored away for me. Then Id often stay after closing to drink with the bartender and other regulars who often did coke.

Walking to the convenient store or to pick up food was a walk through drinking friends standing outside having cigarettes or having people yell at me to come inside.

I moved to a place where I knew only about 5 people and all my social network consisted of people I met in recovery. I live in a suburb where I don't even see bars and there is probably a liquor store about 2 miles drive from here as opposed to a 4 minute walk where I came from.

My walks here are in the evening in wooded parks and not around the neighborhood of bustling noise, action and people everywhere.

I believe changing my environment played a huge factor in getting sober.
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Old 09-17-2020, 06:00 PM
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Good read, Ciowa.
Correcting bad habits, and finding a healthy environment clearly helps in achieving---and maintaining---sobriety.
Sitting on the sofa wishing you didn't drink often won't cut it.
Got to mix in some genuine effort and genuine change.
Nice work, by the way.
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Old 09-20-2020, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ZIP View Post
Good read, Ciowa.
Correcting bad habits, and finding a healthy environment clearly helps in achieving---and maintaining---sobriety.
Sitting on the sofa wishing you didn't drink often won't cut it.
Got to mix in some genuine effort and genuine change.
Nice work, by the way.
Thank you. I had "taken breaks" several times but never made the decision to quit entirely. I woke up and knew I had to make some drastic changes if I was going to be able to stop. I also knew I was going to have to say goodbye to a type of lifestyle and that included where I lived. I had too many years of building drinking into my environment and I had to let go of it all even if was scary to do so. The alternative was worse, to continue on until I lost everything. I made a conscious decision to let go of that part of my life. I wasn't going to try and recreate it, but just not drink. I couldn't hang out in the bars and drink water, visit the liquor store owners for 10 minutes and buy a soda, meet up with friends at one of the restaurant patios at 10pm and order just chips and salsa, that type of stuff. All those settings in my neighborhood were built around drinking. I could continue on and be the old guy at the bar hanging out with people 20 years younger than me until my health collapsed and I died or ended up in a homeless shelter or something. It was time to close that chapter in my life and move on. And that literally meant, moving on.
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Old 09-20-2020, 09:33 AM
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Thanks for your thought provoking post NoBones. Whilst I don't entirely agree - I would not for example advise carrying out a scorched earth approach to friends and family - I certainly agree that it is necessary to instigate some form of change to our daily routine in order to support our efforts to get sober and I absolutely agree about avoiding pubs and parties. (not that I got invited to many parties)

I have always believed that I had strong willpower but I tried quitting using willpower alone many times and it never worked so in that regard you are spot on.
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Old 09-20-2020, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by NoBones View Post
Hi, I visit this forum a lot but rarely post.

I’ve been reading a lot and thinking about will power and free will, and why people like us find it so damn hard to quit.

I put this idea to you.

Individuals (all people) have very little free will and very little will power…if any.

There is a lot to this subject, but I want to keep it relevant to our situation as drinkers.

Everybody knows about nurture and nature shaping an individual. Your genetics and the environment you live in create who you are.

I was born in Australia to my parents and became what I am today. If I were born in China to the same parents, I would be a very different person in many ways, due to the environment.





if you do not change your environment you will never be able to quit.
Too strong worded for my likening. Making changes to help shape your recovery works for many, myself included. Others will be able to quit within their framework/environment.

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Old 09-20-2020, 05:07 PM
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Great thought-provoking post
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Old 09-21-2020, 07:58 AM
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My favorite saying is "I can be what I will to be"--Charles Haanel.

But, twin studies do seem to show a common gene among addicts. There's a predisposition.

So, I use my free will to manage my genetics (my inclination toward numbing out).

My daughter is predisposed to addiction. She is using her free will to never start drinking (and I really hope it stays that way).

Changing the environment, which is premediated through thought, is very important, no doubt about it.

I think free will is the most powerful thing. My daughter is vegan and surrounded by meat eaters. She couldn't change the environment but due to her love of animals, she uses free will to be vegan (going on 4 years now). This is a girl who loved her steak raw.


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Old 10-11-2020, 05:23 PM
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For my past year of sobriety, my free will was and still is integral. It afterall, is my will to not pick up a drink, and it was my will to finally quit. I never really got the 1st step figured out. It's so different for all of us, this is just how it works in my brain I guess. I did most of my drinking at home and at work (so odd saying that now!), so I wasn't able to change most of my environment... and I've been working from home since March lol. I did stop going to bars for quite some time, though I've been going back to old haunts for brunch or dinner occasionally (would be a lot more often were it not for Covid).

I think, while we all have the same disease, what we need to get and stay sober can vary widely. No one perfect way exists.

I say, If you are sober and happy and healthy, you are doing the right thing!

I think some of our environments can be very toxic, and those certainly need to be changed. (Enabling, co-dependence, etc). My environment was bad because I was drinking. Once I stopped my environment improved dramatically. Some of us need to pick up what is left of our lives and go to the other side of the country to recover - but not all of us. I came out of treatment back into the same environment I left, and for me my environment and friends/family have become an important part of my support network.
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Old 10-11-2020, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by brighterday1234 View Post
To stay sober and have peace of mind an alcoholic has to change everything.
This ⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️
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Old 10-12-2020, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by snitch View Post
This ⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️
Some alcoholics just need to stop drinking, and work intensely on the reason they started abusing alcohol in the first place. We're not all the same. Our paths into alcoholism and what we have as co-occuring issues are unique, and our paths out can look very different. The only blanket thing we all need to get out is to stop drinking. I didn't change much, just removed the alcohol and threw myself into therapy to treat my anxiety disorder. That did the trick for me.

The sobriety world is full of "we all have to do "A" to achieve sobriety", those statements have always bothered me. We're all different - what i need to stay sober is going to be different from other people.
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