Triggering feelings
“I think it would be good for me to talk about this whole thing with one of my senior professor colleagues as well, they may well have experiences something similar at some point, it really is very common in academia. I can do that without reveling the student's identity”
that sounds like a really good idea to me.
”If we did develop a personal relationship, I agree it would be best to quit being his advisor and stop everything, ...”
no, Aellyce, it would be imperative, not best. but here you are, bringing up this possibility while telling us how you know that should not happen.
” did try to discuss it with the student, suggesting that we talk about what really goes on and restructure our communications, but his reactions are also quite avoidant and clearly he does not want to talk about it openly. ”
yes, well, i’ll be blunt: that, to me, crosses the line bigtime. it’s trying to pull something into a realm that it does not belong in, instead of staying on the professional level. the fact that he doesn’t want to engage on that kind of discussion or talking “openly” about “what really goes on” is a huge indicator of his discomfort and his boundaries. and where is he to go with his professor’s attempt to discuss “what really goes on”?
i’m not suggesting that what you feel is going on is not going on, but i AM saying that it has already gone beyond appropriate boundaries from your side.
you strike me as a person passionate about a lot of things, so lack of intensity itself isn’t the issue, yes?
and i do believe i have been in very similar situations with obsessive intensities, where i can’t have one without the other. this has slowly stopped “happening” to me with ongoing sobriety, and yeah, it certainly does feel like it just “happens”. very yuckily invigorating place.
i
that sounds like a really good idea to me.
”If we did develop a personal relationship, I agree it would be best to quit being his advisor and stop everything, ...”
no, Aellyce, it would be imperative, not best. but here you are, bringing up this possibility while telling us how you know that should not happen.
” did try to discuss it with the student, suggesting that we talk about what really goes on and restructure our communications, but his reactions are also quite avoidant and clearly he does not want to talk about it openly. ”
yes, well, i’ll be blunt: that, to me, crosses the line bigtime. it’s trying to pull something into a realm that it does not belong in, instead of staying on the professional level. the fact that he doesn’t want to engage on that kind of discussion or talking “openly” about “what really goes on” is a huge indicator of his discomfort and his boundaries. and where is he to go with his professor’s attempt to discuss “what really goes on”?
i’m not suggesting that what you feel is going on is not going on, but i AM saying that it has already gone beyond appropriate boundaries from your side.
you strike me as a person passionate about a lot of things, so lack of intensity itself isn’t the issue, yes?
and i do believe i have been in very similar situations with obsessive intensities, where i can’t have one without the other. this has slowly stopped “happening” to me with ongoing sobriety, and yeah, it certainly does feel like it just “happens”. very yuckily invigorating place.
i
I have enjoyed reading the way you write. It's introspective and deep.
My sister is an academic and so is her husband - a biologist too. My observation of academics is that you tend to meta-analyse a lot of your lives, because that's the way you work, describe your work and review other people's work. Not just meta-analyse but also then draw everything out into a wider commentary and comparison against social structures.
I've worked in a corporate (professional services) setting for 20+ years. We are not immune to the sorts of powerful feelings in hierarchical relationships that you're describing. For that reason, we regulate them too. In my experience, when they happen, it's best not to acknowledge them or allow them room to grow. When I was drinking, I was bad at that. Fortunately, a few drunken experiences with supervisors ended up doing no harm to people's reputations or careers. But we lived in a different time then.
Now I'm sober, it's a lot simpler. I studiously ignore building tension and it dissipates. If you feel you owe this person the obligation of remaining as their Ph.D thesis advisor, then the appropriate thing to do is to stamp down on the attraction. I really think it's more simple than you're making out and I think your academic experience is manipulating you into making it more complicated than it is. And possibly the reason you're feeling alcoholic cravings is because you are activating the same part of your brain that convinces you it's okay to drink.
That's my humble 2 cents. I think it's been said already by others in different words.
My sister is an academic and so is her husband - a biologist too. My observation of academics is that you tend to meta-analyse a lot of your lives, because that's the way you work, describe your work and review other people's work. Not just meta-analyse but also then draw everything out into a wider commentary and comparison against social structures.
I've worked in a corporate (professional services) setting for 20+ years. We are not immune to the sorts of powerful feelings in hierarchical relationships that you're describing. For that reason, we regulate them too. In my experience, when they happen, it's best not to acknowledge them or allow them room to grow. When I was drinking, I was bad at that. Fortunately, a few drunken experiences with supervisors ended up doing no harm to people's reputations or careers. But we lived in a different time then.
Now I'm sober, it's a lot simpler. I studiously ignore building tension and it dissipates. If you feel you owe this person the obligation of remaining as their Ph.D thesis advisor, then the appropriate thing to do is to stamp down on the attraction. I really think it's more simple than you're making out and I think your academic experience is manipulating you into making it more complicated than it is. And possibly the reason you're feeling alcoholic cravings is because you are activating the same part of your brain that convinces you it's okay to drink.
That's my humble 2 cents. I think it's been said already by others in different words.
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All this discussion has been very helpful - thanks again so much, everyone. Maybe I sound like I'm not listening or that it hasn't gotten through to me, but that is definitely not the case. I should stop speaking useless BS though, because that indeed just dilutes everything. My head is much clearer this morning, including also less cluttered. I know very well my tendency to periodically get stuck in "analysis paralysis", use it as a distraction and avoidance of constructive action, overcomplicate things, and all that makes me very stubborn sometimes because I use it to justify and cultivate my negative patterns. I don't think being an academic has made me this way, it is more a personality/cognitive style, which serves me well in the line of work I do...but not even always there. And it is not any kind of excuse.
It won't be necessary to meet with that student for a good while now and we have smaller and a larger groups where we discuss various projects. And none of those will happen in person in the foreseeable future. It does not even feel appealing to talk with him now and I do see the whole relationship in a different light. Sometimes it is as though I delusional when I'm trapped in these stories, but it always lifts. The direct, straight-speaking reality checks, such as this thread, really help. I am glad I posted and asked for it, quite effective.
Finally:
You expressed it better than I did in an earlier post, thank you. It is absolutely the same mechanism. I became very good at resisting and handling alcohol cravings in the past - I had to, because I had tons of massive ones, for a long time. As you all can see, it still happens very occasionally. So next time, when I meet someone who triggers me in that way (as I said I usually recognize them quite quickly), I will apply the same methods that I used for alcohol cravings. I don't even know why I haven't tried that before... that's how "smart" I am when it comes to my obsessions/addictions.
Thank you all very much again!
It won't be necessary to meet with that student for a good while now and we have smaller and a larger groups where we discuss various projects. And none of those will happen in person in the foreseeable future. It does not even feel appealing to talk with him now and I do see the whole relationship in a different light. Sometimes it is as though I delusional when I'm trapped in these stories, but it always lifts. The direct, straight-speaking reality checks, such as this thread, really help. I am glad I posted and asked for it, quite effective.
Finally:
Thank you all very much again!
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Just a little update on this as it is very interesting to look at it again with a bit more distance. I re-read a bunch of the email interactions with that student today (after >a week of stopping it) and I see it very differently. What really strikes me, again, is how distorted my perception could be when I was in the midst of it... thinking it was so great, deep and appealing. It definitely does not look like that even just a few days later, much more a long string of fragmented, compulsive, really not so deeply considered, often quite self-absorbed conversations. It just strikes me how similar it is to the instant gratification and shallow, momentary euphoria we get from drinking and how we crave something ultimately very unsatisfying when we first quit. The convoluted, distorted feelings intoxication generates, the illusions. I mean... my interactions with the student were perfectly okay for an ordinary mentor-mentee interaction, but nothing different, deeper, and more interesting than that. When such distortions occur with drinking/drugging, it is certainly the direct chemical effect on the body - and with these human interpersonal story, it is really the mental projections (imagination) generating the "effect", not true quality.
Now when I look back on my other similar stories in the past - some of those were deeper and higher quality, but definitely not as "fantastic" we believed in the moment. And they never last very long or never provide consistent satisfaction even if they last for years on/off. I completely understand also why my attempts to look at this patterns in any useful/transformative way in psychotherapy failed big time. Firstly, the therapists always engaged in the pattern just like anyone else in my everyday life and, secondly, they looked for answers in all the wrong places for me... plus kept validating feelings and acts that were completely wrong and useless. But I figured out that much, part of the reason I stopped therapy and don't intend to go back, at least not with those modalities.
I think what I'll need to do in the future is to keep my awareness more intact and realistic when I encounter people who seem to fit my pattern, because I expect that to happen again. Not only recognize but somehow change my mental projections, and especially the acting out part, before it happens. I do not expect the fantasies to go away easily, but it will be helpful to keep the realization that I am attracted to my own imagination/projections and not truly the reality out there... so the reality will ultimately disappoint, no matter what. Truly very similar to the methods for getting and staying sober. And I was just thinking, perhaps I can apply a 12 step-like approach to this - I didn't use that much for drinking but it feels very relevant to this pattern. Not sure there is a traditional 12 step group for this, it is not really codependency even... but I could tailor it on my own and maybe just discuss here sometimes, since I got very helpful feedback here. I think discussing with a group would also be better since one-on-one interactions clearly are part of my issue. I feel I need something more than merely "resisting" and moralizing as that obviously hasn't worked well so far.
Now when I look back on my other similar stories in the past - some of those were deeper and higher quality, but definitely not as "fantastic" we believed in the moment. And they never last very long or never provide consistent satisfaction even if they last for years on/off. I completely understand also why my attempts to look at this patterns in any useful/transformative way in psychotherapy failed big time. Firstly, the therapists always engaged in the pattern just like anyone else in my everyday life and, secondly, they looked for answers in all the wrong places for me... plus kept validating feelings and acts that were completely wrong and useless. But I figured out that much, part of the reason I stopped therapy and don't intend to go back, at least not with those modalities.
I think what I'll need to do in the future is to keep my awareness more intact and realistic when I encounter people who seem to fit my pattern, because I expect that to happen again. Not only recognize but somehow change my mental projections, and especially the acting out part, before it happens. I do not expect the fantasies to go away easily, but it will be helpful to keep the realization that I am attracted to my own imagination/projections and not truly the reality out there... so the reality will ultimately disappoint, no matter what. Truly very similar to the methods for getting and staying sober. And I was just thinking, perhaps I can apply a 12 step-like approach to this - I didn't use that much for drinking but it feels very relevant to this pattern. Not sure there is a traditional 12 step group for this, it is not really codependency even... but I could tailor it on my own and maybe just discuss here sometimes, since I got very helpful feedback here. I think discussing with a group would also be better since one-on-one interactions clearly are part of my issue. I feel I need something more than merely "resisting" and moralizing as that obviously hasn't worked well so far.
Hey Aellyce, there's a 12-step program for everything that might ail a body!
I was exposed to some materials from SLAA while I was in rehab, and man did I fit the bill. This group used to be Sex Addicts Anonymous, but has since added "love" to their focus. That's the part that fit for me. You might want to look into it...
I was exposed to some materials from SLAA while I was in rehab, and man did I fit the bill. This group used to be Sex Addicts Anonymous, but has since added "love" to their focus. That's the part that fit for me. You might want to look into it...
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Hey Aellyce, there's a 12-step program for everything that might ail a body!
I was exposed to some materials from SLAA while I was in rehab, and man did I fit the bill. This group used to be Sex Addicts Anonymous, but has since added "love" to their focus. That's the part that fit for me. You might want to look into it...
I was exposed to some materials from SLAA while I was in rehab, and man did I fit the bill. This group used to be Sex Addicts Anonymous, but has since added "love" to their focus. That's the part that fit for me. You might want to look into it...
When I primarily seek mental stimulation and confuse it with closeness in scenarios that cannot even be realized due to their complicated natures, I feel it is the very avoidant type of relating. But people certainly call many things "love". Some things I read about SLAA yesterday definitely fit me though: I am prone to depriving myself of the really fulfilling, secure relationships periodically and isolate too much - then of course I crave the stimulation/connection and can have poor boundaries. I think in this most recent episode, the social deprivation coming with COVID played some triggering role. The inappropriate mode of handling that was acting it out with a student - just because that's easy and already very familiar to me. I should have probably rather joined an online forum discussing similar topics and stuck with the classes I was also taking, or even maybe joined a dating site. I was thinking many times that with the colleague it was so much better because it was also very productive at the same time and we got a lot of work done. Well, that is indeed extra stimulating... but then I should rather find a senior, truly equal colleague for it outside of my immediate business - that I don't have moral issues with and could always manage well in the past.
But I digress again. I'll definitely get into SLAA a bit more and join some meetings, share my stories there if it feels right and see if others have relatable experiences. Thanks for the suggestion!
You do digress, dear. Honestly, it's like the adult voices in Charlie Brown movies for me, your intellectualization. (Mwa ma, mwa mwa mwa ma.) I say this with deep affection because I'm quite certain I have the same affect on other people.
I'm glad you found the suggestion helpful and look forward to hearing what you have to say about it.
Sticky note going up on my desk to remind me to do the same!
I'm glad you found the suggestion helpful and look forward to hearing what you have to say about it.
Sticky note going up on my desk to remind me to do the same!
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Hi Steely,
I am very sorry that happened to you. I personally have always been quite resistant to interpersonal manipulation and abuse and I think that was part of the reason I didn't consider others vulnerability appropriately either. Very low level of awareness, especially from someone who otherwise tends to be proud of being quite introspective. Clearly, there are holes on it, at least holes on the self-control part. The inappropriate story with that particular student is over and I am indeed trying to get over this whole thing. Sobriety does help but clearly not enough on its own - why I am posting about it and looking for solutions.
Thank you for your comment!
I am very sorry that happened to you. I personally have always been quite resistant to interpersonal manipulation and abuse and I think that was part of the reason I didn't consider others vulnerability appropriately either. Very low level of awareness, especially from someone who otherwise tends to be proud of being quite introspective. Clearly, there are holes on it, at least holes on the self-control part. The inappropriate story with that particular student is over and I am indeed trying to get over this whole thing. Sobriety does help but clearly not enough on its own - why I am posting about it and looking for solutions.
Thank you for your comment!
Hi Aellyce,
I too wish to apologise for saying "get over yourself". I shouldn't have said that.
It's just that memories came flooding back and I became angry in the memory of it all.
He was so much more more powerful than me within the interpersonal and it did screw me up.
I'm glad you are looking at it from the perspective of the 'other'. We exist. The man I am describing never did. Denied his role. Made it so much worse.
My very best to you Aellyce. True.
~ steely
I too wish to apologise for saying "get over yourself". I shouldn't have said that.
It's just that memories came flooding back and I became angry in the memory of it all.
He was so much more more powerful than me within the interpersonal and it did screw me up.
I'm glad you are looking at it from the perspective of the 'other'. We exist. The man I am describing never did. Denied his role. Made it so much worse.
My very best to you Aellyce. True.
~ steely
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"I don't know what sort of details would be interesting to provide but maybe it clarifies a bit that there was never any romantic/sexual relationship in these stories, either with my old mentors or my mentees."
Are you purposefully ignoring what we are offering here? As I and others have already repeatedly pointed out to you Professor, there doesn't need to be any romantic or sexual relationship for there to be horrible abuses of power that take place. Life changing for the person with less power. You wouldn't be writing such long tomes about this - expertly slicing the bologna a thousand different ways - if you weren't trying to make yourself feel better about something you know is wrong.
Are you purposefully ignoring what we are offering here? As I and others have already repeatedly pointed out to you Professor, there doesn't need to be any romantic or sexual relationship for there to be horrible abuses of power that take place. Life changing for the person with less power. You wouldn't be writing such long tomes about this - expertly slicing the bologna a thousand different ways - if you weren't trying to make yourself feel better about something you know is wrong.
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No in person meetings is ideal since we are not allowed to have in-person meetings anyway due to COVID, and that's not going to change for a while. Well, good and bad, since this whole situation also developed during the virtual-only time. I think part of it is exactly that we can't see each-other, there are no direct, palpable reality checks of who we are talking to. Much easier to project all sorts of fantasies into it this way. That's why, in general, I am much more prone to developing this pattern when there is a lot of virtual communication. That's how I also misused this forum in the past - as a stimulating distraction. Often, when I get a chance to talk face to face, the whole temptation disappears as I acutely realize it's just a fantasy and not truly "out there" in terms of the person or relationship being special. The psych buzzword "transference" is a very good, descriptive term, I think... although that literature often makes it way too one-dimensional and simplifies/misinterprets the many ways it can arise.
We're living under conditions that promote fantasy and what people used to refer to as "daydreaming." People who typically don't recall their dreams are reporting more frequent memories. Other people are reporting more and more intense dreams. What's so great about reality right now?
Introspection is a tough thing too. It can take over if I'm keeping it all to myself. We need people who are willing to listen to us and with us.
You've said in different ways that there is something that continues to draw you back to the type of relationship that creates -- or can potentially create -- internal and circumstantial conflict.
I think of danger, excitement, adrenalin, hope, fulfillment. The challenge of engaging/instigating the process itself. There's something missing for everyone even though we may not always know what that is. And we don't always know what it is when we're looking straight at it. We're good at keeping things to ourselves.
I don't see anything that you don't see. I imagine that such thorough introspection can be draining, stressful.
Plenty of philosophers, psychiatrists, and religions talk about doing things, usually conflicted and/or painful things, over and over again until we "get them right."
Plans for "getting things right" can become increasingly self-complicating the more we contemplate what getting things right would even look like. Another distraction or a way out?
I don't know how to describe how it became that I got off a couple of tracks in relationships with other people that were, for me, self-defeating at best and in the long-run. It can be frightening to consider just how much freedom we have in terms of our own thinking and behavior.
You use language in some of your posts, posts in which you discuss some of your concerns, in terms that one might interpret as unkind. Whatever it is inside of you that's working to get your attention would likely feel safer the more you demonstrate that you can be kind to yourself.
It sounds like you have a good handle on things right now. I do understand how these relationships can be addicting and thrilling. You mentioned that you were never really affected by the relationships you had with your mentors, you just sort of moved on. You also agreed that not everyone is like you. I absolutely do not judge you for what your pattern is, not one bit. Speaking as someone who was/is more vulnerable to abuses of power I can say that years later I am still suffering PTSD and great confusion and pain over the deeply intense relationship I had with my psychiatrist. Though flirtatious and right there on the edge, nothing sexual ever happened between us either, yet it has done massive damage to me as a person and affected nearly every relationship I have- with family, friends, my partner, my kids.... myself.
If you can naturally drag it back around to an appropriate relationship and feel that he is coming along with you that way just fine then I would do that. If you sense that he is expecting more as you begin to make changes, I would encourage you to talk to him about the unspoken feelings and why you are distancing yourself a bit more. I was dropped via text message by my psychiatrist with absolutely no explanation and no closure and that was and still is extraordinarily painful.
If you can naturally drag it back around to an appropriate relationship and feel that he is coming along with you that way just fine then I would do that. If you sense that he is expecting more as you begin to make changes, I would encourage you to talk to him about the unspoken feelings and why you are distancing yourself a bit more. I was dropped via text message by my psychiatrist with absolutely no explanation and no closure and that was and still is extraordinarily painful.
Just got back from my walk and was thinking about this some more. I really want to emphasise how important closure is for some people, I would imagine the majority of people. I suppose my psychiatrist thought he was just "ripping off the bandaid" but to me it felt like I was stabbed and there was no bandage ever applied. I still bleed from that wound today. I think this is important even if you do not terminate the working relationship completely but do change the mood of it and get rid of the tension. Only you will know if this is needed or not and I trust you to make the right judgement. In my case it was glaringly obvious that he should have handled things differently. I'll spare the gory details because this is your thread but we cried together, laughed together, the sexual tension was so thick you could cut it with a knife, I told him I loved him, he told me he loved me.
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Thanks again for all the interesting and deeply felt posts. I absolutely welcome any type of feedback here, in any way people want to say it - that's what makes it authentic and that's what helps me the best, to see the variety. Because part of this issue is that I have not considered the variety before well-enough. This is also one reason why, I think, it's much better for me to discuss this with a group than with select individuals alone - much more realistic this way. Obviously, I am getting varied responses and suggestions that sometimes oppose each-other, but it is not a problem at all.
I am also completely aware that this thread may be triggering for some - in another mental health forum I frequented in the past, they would want such a thread to be placed in clear, formal "trigger warning" signs, so that people who know they might be stirred negatively by the content can avoid it. I am actually glad we don't have that policy here on SR because I do think it is good for people in recovery to look at many sides of whatever issues and experiences we had.
I don't have time now to respond to the newer comments right now because I must get some work done and posting here instead would just be the familiar form of distraction But I will follow up and address them later. Will also share what I find in the SLAA groups when I feel I have seen enough and have a good enough grasp to discuss it. I definitely don't want to avoid addressing and following up on this. Introspection, and looking for solutions, is actually not stressful for me at all - more the opposite, it is very stimulating and rewarding. If I don't overdo it and use it as a distraction/avoidance strategy, as discussed earlier... it only becomes stressful via the stress of procrastinating other important things because this may feel more interesting in the moment.
So more later and, again, please feel free to post anything.
I am also completely aware that this thread may be triggering for some - in another mental health forum I frequented in the past, they would want such a thread to be placed in clear, formal "trigger warning" signs, so that people who know they might be stirred negatively by the content can avoid it. I am actually glad we don't have that policy here on SR because I do think it is good for people in recovery to look at many sides of whatever issues and experiences we had.
I don't have time now to respond to the newer comments right now because I must get some work done and posting here instead would just be the familiar form of distraction But I will follow up and address them later. Will also share what I find in the SLAA groups when I feel I have seen enough and have a good enough grasp to discuss it. I definitely don't want to avoid addressing and following up on this. Introspection, and looking for solutions, is actually not stressful for me at all - more the opposite, it is very stimulating and rewarding. If I don't overdo it and use it as a distraction/avoidance strategy, as discussed earlier... it only becomes stressful via the stress of procrastinating other important things because this may feel more interesting in the moment.
So more later and, again, please feel free to post anything.
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You are glamorizing abuse of power. I am an academic too, but not sure how much it matters. This kind of behaviour is replicated everywhere by similar suspects.
What you are describing is totally wrong and very damaging. I would stop the navel gazing and work on good boundaries.
What you are describing is totally wrong and very damaging. I would stop the navel gazing and work on good boundaries.
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P.S. First I wanted to write all this (and more) to the student and to a senior colleague of mine. But did the thing I often recommend to others: to write emails, never send, and use them in other ways. Send them to people you expect to understand, instead of acting out, or just feeling horrible alone.
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I could skip a lot of the navel gazing when discussing this here - it is probably just similar anyway to when we often say that pondering why we drink/drug is not really helpful when the focus needs to be on changing the behavior first. I did find it essential though for successfully maintaining long-term sobriety from alcohol, because inhibition alone... what are we truly inhibiting then to sustain better balance and change? It remains too superficial then and just won't last.
What I am trying to say is that resolving something like this needs more than simply "resisting" - if that worked, these interpersonal stories would not be so common and persistent everywhere in society. I think probably most of the instigators have many moments of clarity when they know, without doubt, that all this is wrong and destructive (unless they have severe personality disorders, which some may have but I don't have and most don't). They just keep it to themselves, in part because it is easier and in part because... well, we want to continue doing it next time... much like drinking and drug abuse. In a way, telling someone who engages in abuse of power, even in similar without clear power differential, to just stop it because it is very wrong, is similar to telling a drug addict to stop using their drug of choice already, and this is another area where the comparison is useful.
Where it is not so similar, as I mentioned earlier, is that another person is not a drug or an inanimate object. So I absolutely agree with Mera that suddenly dumping the person, in the hopes that it will make things better, is a very bad idea. I must also say that I believe part of the reason I never felt really damaged by my past mentors/stories when I was young is because I was never dumped or even avoided much. It never even came up - we more realized it was getting out of hand and re-focused on work, school, whatever. And I often discussed the deep ends of the stories with my past mentors later in very open ways. It very definitely would have been painful not being able to do that and their not being open with me, just sending me on my merry ways or something. But, as we can see, it is not enough to prevent future repetitions - talking, support, even room given to anger is never enough, I need to do that work on myself and in my present and future life, to handle these predispositions.
I don't want to sound defensive, but I think one problem area that keeps cultivating these stories is that the instigators, abusers, dismissive-avoidant people, whatever we want to call it, relatively rarely go out and admit/reveal their side of the story. Also much more rarely seek help/change than the "victims". So simply treating the victims and not the other side will never truly resolve these problems well enough. This is what I am seeking to do differently here and while looking for things I can do, more than merely knowing it is wrong and trying to simply resist the 50th time, without anything else... because I don't think I am wrong to predict it may not be successful. Again, just like the other addictions, when someone wants to quit but has no recovery plan other than avoiding the drug and no clear, practical resources to use.
For someone like me, looking back at my earlier life similar experiences, when I was on the other side, is not so powerful because I didn't interpret it and suffer the same as many other people. Again, this is also one reason psychotherapy was not helpful for this, because the way they most commonly address similar stuff, the focus is too often on the past and trying to "rip off the bandaid" as Mera expressed and make the person gaze at it and grieve their past... So they get more in touch with their own suffering and how they were wronged. It didn't work for me, because there is nothing or very little there in that regard. Plus, I was even the instigator most of the time in my past stories as well, with my mentors, or we were, equally. They played along and the whole thing got tangled. I think it is simpler for me - this is a type of addiction I also had to alcohol. Even with alcohol, I was not really the self-medicating, drinking to curb negative feelings type. I rarely even had the stress triggers many people do, in early sobriety. I did it because I loved the high, the euphoria, the stimulation, the altered state. It was different and more interesting than dealing with ordinary everyday chores, even "normal" relationships. I never even became the type of drinker who would continue doing shots in the morning to alleviate the hangover/withdrawal because I could not stand the "down" phase. Just waited to recover enough and feel better - then escaped, once again, the "mundane reality" into pleasure-seeking and the bizarre. Rinse repeat.
Anyhow, I clearly don't know how to discuss this better without overcomplicating and going all over the map once I start... maybe this is yet another form of poor self-control. So yes, I know all this is wrong and that I need to work on my boundaries and on what I use to fill the occasional boredom and lack of stimulation/intensity. Also what tools I use to keep my motivation high so that I can be productive and happier with what I do. The question is how to make this happen effectively. The program Obladi suggested sounds like a good start, as I said, and I think next time perhaps I should post when I have something to report about how that goes.
What I am trying to say is that resolving something like this needs more than simply "resisting" - if that worked, these interpersonal stories would not be so common and persistent everywhere in society. I think probably most of the instigators have many moments of clarity when they know, without doubt, that all this is wrong and destructive (unless they have severe personality disorders, which some may have but I don't have and most don't). They just keep it to themselves, in part because it is easier and in part because... well, we want to continue doing it next time... much like drinking and drug abuse. In a way, telling someone who engages in abuse of power, even in similar without clear power differential, to just stop it because it is very wrong, is similar to telling a drug addict to stop using their drug of choice already, and this is another area where the comparison is useful.
Where it is not so similar, as I mentioned earlier, is that another person is not a drug or an inanimate object. So I absolutely agree with Mera that suddenly dumping the person, in the hopes that it will make things better, is a very bad idea. I must also say that I believe part of the reason I never felt really damaged by my past mentors/stories when I was young is because I was never dumped or even avoided much. It never even came up - we more realized it was getting out of hand and re-focused on work, school, whatever. And I often discussed the deep ends of the stories with my past mentors later in very open ways. It very definitely would have been painful not being able to do that and their not being open with me, just sending me on my merry ways or something. But, as we can see, it is not enough to prevent future repetitions - talking, support, even room given to anger is never enough, I need to do that work on myself and in my present and future life, to handle these predispositions.
I don't want to sound defensive, but I think one problem area that keeps cultivating these stories is that the instigators, abusers, dismissive-avoidant people, whatever we want to call it, relatively rarely go out and admit/reveal their side of the story. Also much more rarely seek help/change than the "victims". So simply treating the victims and not the other side will never truly resolve these problems well enough. This is what I am seeking to do differently here and while looking for things I can do, more than merely knowing it is wrong and trying to simply resist the 50th time, without anything else... because I don't think I am wrong to predict it may not be successful. Again, just like the other addictions, when someone wants to quit but has no recovery plan other than avoiding the drug and no clear, practical resources to use.
For someone like me, looking back at my earlier life similar experiences, when I was on the other side, is not so powerful because I didn't interpret it and suffer the same as many other people. Again, this is also one reason psychotherapy was not helpful for this, because the way they most commonly address similar stuff, the focus is too often on the past and trying to "rip off the bandaid" as Mera expressed and make the person gaze at it and grieve their past... So they get more in touch with their own suffering and how they were wronged. It didn't work for me, because there is nothing or very little there in that regard. Plus, I was even the instigator most of the time in my past stories as well, with my mentors, or we were, equally. They played along and the whole thing got tangled. I think it is simpler for me - this is a type of addiction I also had to alcohol. Even with alcohol, I was not really the self-medicating, drinking to curb negative feelings type. I rarely even had the stress triggers many people do, in early sobriety. I did it because I loved the high, the euphoria, the stimulation, the altered state. It was different and more interesting than dealing with ordinary everyday chores, even "normal" relationships. I never even became the type of drinker who would continue doing shots in the morning to alleviate the hangover/withdrawal because I could not stand the "down" phase. Just waited to recover enough and feel better - then escaped, once again, the "mundane reality" into pleasure-seeking and the bizarre. Rinse repeat.
Anyhow, I clearly don't know how to discuss this better without overcomplicating and going all over the map once I start... maybe this is yet another form of poor self-control. So yes, I know all this is wrong and that I need to work on my boundaries and on what I use to fill the occasional boredom and lack of stimulation/intensity. Also what tools I use to keep my motivation high so that I can be productive and happier with what I do. The question is how to make this happen effectively. The program Obladi suggested sounds like a good start, as I said, and I think next time perhaps I should post when I have something to report about how that goes.
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