Boundaries
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 66
Boundaries
Hi, new here. Mom with kids. Married to a good guy except when he's drinking, extremely bad judgement and a little nasty verbally. Quit before, trying to quit again. Usually it's just passing out on couch 3-5 days a week, then moderates for a bit, then gets worse, then eventually escalates to major incident, then quits, then moderates...you get the picture. I'd be done now but found out about a very troubled childhood only this past year so I have more empathy and compassion now. A week ago, stress triggered major incidents, drunk driving, kids now know, they range in age from 10-20. Different ballgame now that our son had to see him in that way, passed out cold in a vehicle on an old road. I'm doing professional counseling. It's helpful but I'm in a bit of a quandry and need some perspective. He's very quiet tonight after I communicated a boundary.I asked why I'm getting the silent treatment but left it alone. He just seems upset and pensive so I suppose he's just taking it all in. On the advice of my counselor, I told him that he needs to see an addictions counselor in addition to the aa and online program he's doing. She says no accountability with the others, he needs professional one on one. If he won't, the idea is that I ask him to leave or I leave with the kids, and also if he relapses into the second day (so give him a day if he slips, then second day if still drinking he has to leave or we leave). Here's the thing, I know he won't leave and I'm not sure my kids will want to either. This is their home and I'm not going without them - obviously they need me. Does anyone have a situation like this or a solution? I've been protecting them from a lot for years so they're probably still a little naive to where this may go. I really don't know what to do, what plan to have. I fully intend to stay with him if he sees the addictions counselor and things are going well. Maybe I'm worrying too much. I would love to hear from someone who has experience with or knows of a similar situation. Thank you.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,195
I was the alcoholic in a relationship. She gave me multiple ultimatums and showed great patience. I got a DUI and still drank. Quit my job because I was too drunk to show up. Stole money from her to drink. Eventually she kicked me out. I went to rehab, went back to drinking.
Nothing can stop me from drinking if I really want to. Only I can stop myself. I have lost relationships, jobs, my possessions, been arrested many times, and had serious health/injuries. None of these things got me to stop. It's really up to the alcoholic to decide they've had enough. I have to want to be sober which never lasts long.
Nothing can stop me from drinking if I really want to. Only I can stop myself. I have lost relationships, jobs, my possessions, been arrested many times, and had serious health/injuries. None of these things got me to stop. It's really up to the alcoholic to decide they've had enough. I have to want to be sober which never lasts long.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 1,132
Welcome to the group! I'm going to let others try to answer this because I think they are better qualified than I am. The one think I would say is that a troubled childhood doesn't justify abusing alcohol.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 118
OliviaLynnMarsh for a second there I thought you were writing about me. I was almost exactly like your husband, minus the drink driving.
What's your objective - do you want your husband to stop drinking?
What's your objective - do you want your husband to stop drinking?
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
tough situation, OliviaLynnMarsh, and my suggestion is to check out the Friends and Family forums farther down the forums list.
plenty of people there with more of a focus on the situation you find yourself in.
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...ly-alcoholics/
plenty of people there with more of a focus on the situation you find yourself in.
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...ly-alcoholics/
Member
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,420
I can only really speak from my experience as the drinker, which may be different than your situation.
Any negative reinforcement from my wife would have only ever made it worse I think. That was part of the cycle of dependency. I was making it difficult for my wife to show support, and my behavior was partially the result of a lack of support.
Ultimately I am responsible for my own behavior. By the grace of God, through a sequence of events I broke the cycle. There will always be differences of opinions, but it's much more positive around the house now.
Had my wife shown more support and asked what she could have done to help, would it have made a difference? Just don't know.
If she had given me an ultimatum for drinking, what would I have done? Don't know that either.
Don't know if this helps. May not apply to your situation at all.
Any negative reinforcement from my wife would have only ever made it worse I think. That was part of the cycle of dependency. I was making it difficult for my wife to show support, and my behavior was partially the result of a lack of support.
Ultimately I am responsible for my own behavior. By the grace of God, through a sequence of events I broke the cycle. There will always be differences of opinions, but it's much more positive around the house now.
Had my wife shown more support and asked what she could have done to help, would it have made a difference? Just don't know.
If she had given me an ultimatum for drinking, what would I have done? Don't know that either.
Don't know if this helps. May not apply to your situation at all.
bona fido dog-lover
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SF Bay area, CA
Posts: 99,772
I too would suggest the friends and family forum for support. Also, AlAnon, if there are meetings near you.
You say you've been protecting the kids for years. Then they already know, whether or not they let on that they know. Kids don't miss much.
It all comes down to what is best for you and your kids. I hope you can work out a solution.
You say you've been protecting the kids for years. Then they already know, whether or not they let on that they know. Kids don't miss much.
It all comes down to what is best for you and your kids. I hope you can work out a solution.
Sober since 10th April 2012
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 6,047
Hi OLM, you will get more responses from people who have been through this in the Friends and Family forum.
As Dee has indicated you can bet the children know a lot more than they are letting on. As there is a regular cycle of 'incidents' you may want to think about what this is doing to you and the kids.
A boundary is something you set for yourself, not the drinker, or otherwise it's an ultimatum. Assuming the boundary is that he gets professional help, are you ready to follow through if he doesn't? A disturbed childhood doesn't help when battling addiction, but on the other hand he's an adult now who knows his family is suffering and there is profession help available, as well as AA. He doesn't have to do it on his own. If he still refuses to get help then you are well within your rights to ask him to leave. I wouldn't just assume he'll say no until you've tried.
If he doesn't leave, you may have to move with the children. At least start preparing in case you need to by putting together all essential documents, having your own accounts, getting legal advice.
As Dee has indicated you can bet the children know a lot more than they are letting on. As there is a regular cycle of 'incidents' you may want to think about what this is doing to you and the kids.
A boundary is something you set for yourself, not the drinker, or otherwise it's an ultimatum. Assuming the boundary is that he gets professional help, are you ready to follow through if he doesn't? A disturbed childhood doesn't help when battling addiction, but on the other hand he's an adult now who knows his family is suffering and there is profession help available, as well as AA. He doesn't have to do it on his own. If he still refuses to get help then you are well within your rights to ask him to leave. I wouldn't just assume he'll say no until you've tried.
If he doesn't leave, you may have to move with the children. At least start preparing in case you need to by putting together all essential documents, having your own accounts, getting legal advice.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 66
I thank all of you. I will indeed use the family forum as well, but it's good to hear from the drinker's perspective too I think. To be clear, I've done much supporting - through the moderation attempts, the beer only attempts etc. I realize a troubled childhood isn't an excuse, but it can explain the need to be numb sometimes. Unless a person has been through it, you wouldn't understand the effects - I'm not excusing, just being compassionate. Today, I'm getting the silent treatment because of that communication last evening. I feel so sad today, as if I'm being punished. Maybe my boundary should instead be something like "We won't rescue you any more", but it's the lesser , more frequent incidents that also give me so much anxiety, because I know eventually they culminate in a large incident such as drunk driving. Because I asked him to get professional counseling, he won't look at me this morning, and barely speaking to me, this man , who, five days ago, told me that he'd make it up to the kids and I . He wants to stop drinking and he's been on a good streak. Can any of the drinkers please tell me what I should or should not do here? I'm starting to doubt my counselor's advice. The extent that my kids have seen is the drunkeness with passing out on the couch, bump into a wall etc. Nothing really major except for the recent drunk driving where my 18 year old son had to find him in the car and bring him home. I know this is horrible but I think it would be worse for them to go through a family break up, plus it would drive my husband to drink even more, then they don't have a dad. He's a good dad 80 percent of the time. Am I being naive here? Please , I won't take offence.
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Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 66
By the way, this may be relevant that he is high functioning - goes to work, is sober lots of the time. It's the binge drinking that it always ramps up to that's the issue. The every other day passing out just at night is just anxiety provoking because I know where it will go eventually.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 66
Tried to reply to a specific post, but the button won't work for me. I hear a lot of people saying to try the family/friends forum. I get that suggestion and thanks but I also see a lot of value in hearing from the drinkers themselves, and maybe the drinkers would get something from listening to the family members as well. I've found that my husband became a little egocentric when drinking and only discussing issues with other drinkers won't help with that. Probably also helpful to see that the many issues it causes are made worse by the drinking itself, like PurpleMan said. Else, you fall into the trap that no one understands only those that go through the same thing. There's a lot of value in another's perspective, if you can manage to be non-defensive and vulnerable enough to actually consider that you might be wrong. I would have loved it a few years ago if my husband was on the family forum so he could just see that I wasn't over reacting. Then again, deep down he knew that but had to self protect. This is a good man with a good heart. Alcohol has stolen from us. Even more than that, the Catholic Church stole from us when they allowed peodophile priests to be shuffled around to have new victims.
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Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,420
Sounds a lot like how my behavior was.
There were definitely things at home that were contributing to the cycle for me, but they were just pieces of the puzzle along with work related stress and so forth.
Your situation could be completely different. Just thinking based on my experience. Maybe try to cut a deal? Make a list of things to trade for ten days no alcohol. No mention of taking out trash, trimming the dogs toenails, expensive trip, MIL, painting house, politics/network news, or whatever, for ten days no drinking, then a reevaluation after the ten days.
Maybe a more positive alternative to ultimatum of quit or I take kids and head to the hills.
Prayer sent for you and your family.
There were definitely things at home that were contributing to the cycle for me, but they were just pieces of the puzzle along with work related stress and so forth.
Your situation could be completely different. Just thinking based on my experience. Maybe try to cut a deal? Make a list of things to trade for ten days no alcohol. No mention of taking out trash, trimming the dogs toenails, expensive trip, MIL, painting house, politics/network news, or whatever, for ten days no drinking, then a reevaluation after the ten days.
Maybe a more positive alternative to ultimatum of quit or I take kids and head to the hills.
Prayer sent for you and your family.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,420
Another thought that might help.
My wife and I do not have an open channel of communication regarding finances, future plans, etc. Its a struggle to discuss things, especially with alcohol being a factor. Much easier for me to internalize and dilute than to address the real issues. Now I'm finding that it's still an issue but is possible to discuss things if I'm not drunk or hungover. We're slowly working through the things that have gone unaddressed for so long. Some of the things that I thought were major issues really aren't.
I'm sure that my drinking behavior contributed to my wife building a firewall of sorts. The lack of communication contributed to my stress/anxiety level. Anxiety level contributed to drinking, which reinforced wife's firewall, which reinforced anxiety. In my case the cycle had to be broken, and SR and the wonderful people here have been instrumental.
Certainly do not mean to sound like I'm putting it all on my wife. Please don't interpret it that way. I think that to have a chance though, the issues have to be discussed openly and honestly or it's a nonstarter.
My wife and I do not have an open channel of communication regarding finances, future plans, etc. Its a struggle to discuss things, especially with alcohol being a factor. Much easier for me to internalize and dilute than to address the real issues. Now I'm finding that it's still an issue but is possible to discuss things if I'm not drunk or hungover. We're slowly working through the things that have gone unaddressed for so long. Some of the things that I thought were major issues really aren't.
I'm sure that my drinking behavior contributed to my wife building a firewall of sorts. The lack of communication contributed to my stress/anxiety level. Anxiety level contributed to drinking, which reinforced wife's firewall, which reinforced anxiety. In my case the cycle had to be broken, and SR and the wonderful people here have been instrumental.
Certainly do not mean to sound like I'm putting it all on my wife. Please don't interpret it that way. I think that to have a chance though, the issues have to be discussed openly and honestly or it's a nonstarter.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,423
“High functioning “ is a stage of alcoholism , not a type of alcoholic. It always progresses untreated as you are experiencing.
He doesn’t sound too high functioning at home, and this is usually where the cracks show first. It did for me too. He has to help himself,and this silent treatment behavior suggests he isn’t ready for recovery. You cannot control or change that. It is up to him.
Many drinkers have terrible childhoods. I grew up with an an alcoholic parent, and if you look at the data, many such children become alcoholic in their turn (I was one such).
You simply can’t absolutely protect them from the unpredictability in their home, the stress and tension the non-drinking parent has from trying to manage the fallout from the drinking parent, and the inevitable deterioration physically and emotionally from the many failed moderation and “I will do better “ promises that build resentments in the whole family each time the alcoholic picks up again. I don’t mean this as a criticism at all, simply the truth of any situation like this.
Do what is best for your kids as they have no choice. You are an adult and fully formed, but they are being changed in ways you cannot know by their exposure to this. As many have already said to you, they know, feel, and are sensitive to what is happening in your home and between you and your spouse.
He doesn’t sound too high functioning at home, and this is usually where the cracks show first. It did for me too. He has to help himself,and this silent treatment behavior suggests he isn’t ready for recovery. You cannot control or change that. It is up to him.
Many drinkers have terrible childhoods. I grew up with an an alcoholic parent, and if you look at the data, many such children become alcoholic in their turn (I was one such).
You simply can’t absolutely protect them from the unpredictability in their home, the stress and tension the non-drinking parent has from trying to manage the fallout from the drinking parent, and the inevitable deterioration physically and emotionally from the many failed moderation and “I will do better “ promises that build resentments in the whole family each time the alcoholic picks up again. I don’t mean this as a criticism at all, simply the truth of any situation like this.
Do what is best for your kids as they have no choice. You are an adult and fully formed, but they are being changed in ways you cannot know by their exposure to this. As many have already said to you, they know, feel, and are sensitive to what is happening in your home and between you and your spouse.
Hears The Voice
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Unshackled
Posts: 7,901
Telling him you will not allow the children to be around him if he is drinking, and that if he chooses to drink you will take them and leave is a boundary. If you do A, I will do B.
Telling him he must see a counselor or you will take the kids and leave is not setting a boundary. It is attempting to control his behavior. If you don't do A, I will do B. I am a big fan of one on one counseling. It helped me immeasurably. You can encourage it, but compelling it makes it less likely to succeed.
I was a functioning alcoholic for many years. During that time I focused on the 'functioning' when I should have focused on the 'alcoholic'. Perhaps I wouldn't have woken up at the hospital after my last drink.
Best of Luck on Your Journey!
Telling him he must see a counselor or you will take the kids and leave is not setting a boundary. It is attempting to control his behavior. If you don't do A, I will do B. I am a big fan of one on one counseling. It helped me immeasurably. You can encourage it, but compelling it makes it less likely to succeed.
I was a functioning alcoholic for many years. During that time I focused on the 'functioning' when I should have focused on the 'alcoholic'. Perhaps I wouldn't have woken up at the hospital after my last drink.
Best of Luck on Your Journey!
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Dancing in the Light
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Nonsensical is right. You don't use boundaries to try to control your spouse, you use boundaries to protect yourself. And, when you set a boundary, you should be 100% ready to follow through with the action you set.
Have you considered AlAnon in your city as a support for you?
Have you considered AlAnon in your city as a support for you?
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
nobody questions that alcoholics can be good people with good hearts.
that has nothing to do with any of it.
what matters is if he is willing and ready to put the work in to stop drinking and stay that way. right now, no, he is not. he is protecting his present and future drinking.
you have no control, ultimately, over what he does. you can exercise control over yourself by sticking to what you say you will do.
that has nothing to do with any of it.
what matters is if he is willing and ready to put the work in to stop drinking and stay that way. right now, no, he is not. he is protecting his present and future drinking.
you have no control, ultimately, over what he does. you can exercise control over yourself by sticking to what you say you will do.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Minnesota, USA
Posts: 1,468
Welcome,
I am sorry for what brings you here.
I think you need to stop making and accepting his excuses to drink, be drunk and do dumb things.
We have ALL been through something, that does not give us an excuse to drink in excess, drive drunk, or be mentally abusive to someone else.
Al-anon would be your friend.
This place will help you set your boundaries, give you a way to live with an addict if that is your choice, but also give you tools to NOT feel BAD for your choices while he makes you feel bad for HIS choices.
If I was in your shoes, I protect me and my children above ALL. The risk of a child being in a car while someone is drunk is not happening on my watch. I would leave. I would get a hotel for a while, show him the seriousness of the situation. Alcoholics only learn when consequences are shown (well, some and some it takes LOTS of consequences and hopefully not death).
I would go stay with family. Yes, I would take the kids and YES I would explain to the children at an age-appropriate level what is going on.
"Daddy is sick right now, and until he gets help I do not trust his judgment so we are going to XYZ for a while in hopes DAddy get's better. This is NOTHING to do with you, he loves you very much and needs some help right now to get back to the daddy we know and love"
It is tough, but you need a backbone and you need to stand your ground. If you make a threat, you have to follow through otherwise he is going to continue the cycle as you show him you are going to accept that behavior.
Best of luck to you,
DC
I am sorry for what brings you here.
I think you need to stop making and accepting his excuses to drink, be drunk and do dumb things.
We have ALL been through something, that does not give us an excuse to drink in excess, drive drunk, or be mentally abusive to someone else.
Al-anon would be your friend.
This place will help you set your boundaries, give you a way to live with an addict if that is your choice, but also give you tools to NOT feel BAD for your choices while he makes you feel bad for HIS choices.
If I was in your shoes, I protect me and my children above ALL. The risk of a child being in a car while someone is drunk is not happening on my watch. I would leave. I would get a hotel for a while, show him the seriousness of the situation. Alcoholics only learn when consequences are shown (well, some and some it takes LOTS of consequences and hopefully not death).
I would go stay with family. Yes, I would take the kids and YES I would explain to the children at an age-appropriate level what is going on.
"Daddy is sick right now, and until he gets help I do not trust his judgment so we are going to XYZ for a while in hopes DAddy get's better. This is NOTHING to do with you, he loves you very much and needs some help right now to get back to the daddy we know and love"
It is tough, but you need a backbone and you need to stand your ground. If you make a threat, you have to follow through otherwise he is going to continue the cycle as you show him you are going to accept that behavior.
Best of luck to you,
DC
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 66
Boundaries
Thanks guys, you're really giving me food for thought here. Well, I sent him a text earlier and he says we'll talk after work, so that's a good sign I suppose. I probably need to talk to the kids alone. This should be a family decision maybe. I'm not sure the two older teens would want to leave their home despite dad's actions (usually just passing out at night) My oldest is on his own and hasn't been around for the bad stuff, and since he lives in another country, I thought it useless to burden him. My second oldest called him when the drunk driving incidents occurred. He's 19 and he's the one that went to find him the second time he disappeared. It was so sad, he and my oldest wouldn't let me go. There they were protecting me. The only one I can really make that choice for is my 12 year old, and she knows nothing of the heavy stuff - she just sees the occasional odd behavior or him snoring on the couch. I really need to rethink all this. I don't want to leave, I'm just trying to figure this out in terms of upholding a boundary. I feel like I'd be doing much more damage to them if I uproot them to another home and abandon their dad. At least now, they see me sticking with him and trying to support - my oldest even said that to me. I'm feeling somewhat resentful that my husband has put me in this position. If anything positive has come out of any of this, it's that we have much better communication usually than we ever had, and our commitment to each other is evident. I'm just getting so tired and want a normal life with easier issues. I'm whining...sorry.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 66
Cityboy, used your advice and cut a deal with him, so to speak. I don't demand that he goes to the addictions counsellor right now, I let him spend 3 months just using the Habits Unplugged program. If he can't stay sober for the majority of time within the 3 months, we'll only stay with him if he goes to the addictions counsellor. I don't think it's a good idea to threaten someone if they slip up, we're only human - I slip up and eat sugar sometimes! But i need to have a benchmark in my head of how to handle slip ups, one night is ok (like last night, he wasn't drunk but just had some and went to bed), but how often? These questions must sound crazy, I'm sorry. I feel crazy sometimes. Not the same carefree, confident woman that was 10 years ago.
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