Holy crap after all this time! That dang AV has been hatching a plan! Busted!

I asked the question of what moderation looks like yet my tagline is: complete abstinence is easier than perfect moderation. I reset that tagline probably a year ago and it is a St. Thomas of Aquinas quote I ran across that sounded mildly interesting.

I was warning myself.

Edit: It was Saint Augustine who said it. I'm a lot more familiar with sinners than saints. :)

I like that. It would really make me wonder when I'd started drinking again what I was doing it for. Yes I just need a bit more of this.

"The right" is almost always based on experience, as the BB lays out. What it took for us to get sober, if you will. Everyone doesn't say things in the best tone or way sometimes, but this kind of tough love is perhaps best reconsidered - as frankness of where we may need to go.

I was half drunk at the liver dr when two things happened that made me quit:
"August, why are you killing yourself? Lovely woman, well-educated, you've done a lot of great things in your life. Why?"

That WHY - I had no answer.

He followed that up with "I don't even need to examine you and I can tell you that you've got a yr, 18 months if you keep going. And I'm not going to fool with you if you don't want to do everything you can to live."

I was DONE.

Why did it take the many prior warnings and ER visits and injuries and loss and pain and... I don't know other than I wasn't ready to give it up and surrender.

Sadly, I feel like deep down, this is what I'm waiting for. Just being 100% honest.

Whenever I even drink on a "moderate" level (about 3 beers a day), I get this dull aching pain that developes right around my liver. I've gone to the doctor (more than one) a million times now. They say it's just normal and act like I should just keep an eye on my intake. No stopping, no "you're gonna die if you don't". Just a kind of shrug of the shoulders and seem unconcerned.

I know this sounds terrible and insane, but sometimes I wish they would tell me to stop, because it concerns me that unless it's a done deal I don't know if I will be able to.

Hi,
My Puppy's name is Monica- After Saint Monica (Saint Augustine's Mother)

Just a side note

Also insane
LOVE this post- I remember MANY years ago doing laundry maybe 2 days Sober during a SNOW storm. An urgent thought (creepy thoughts) into my head... What am I going to do when I get invited to that 4th of July bbq party ?? (my mind transported me to a laid back bbq sunny 82 degree's )AND I can not NOT drink ..(now I know its not a punishment NOT drinking) I might as well drink until after the 4th.

Guess who was drunk by herself wandering the city getting drunk by herself in the rain on 7/4 And low and behold..No invite to any BBQ's those for some reason mmm? wonder why.
*********************

Totally get it.

And, honestly, even when I knew doctors who told me to quit were right, I didn't care - enough. For myself. I finally got from "I don't care if live" to "I don't want to die."

And, it is insane because that's what our disease is. Many drs don't get it - they still don't have enough who've had the training. When I realized that my drs were all in their 50s and up - it clicked that I was fortunate bc I had ones great enough to know what they didn't know and recognize an alcoholic when they saw one. And then it was up to me to stop - or not. And 100% honest - it's up to you, even if no one tells you that you have a problem. When liver pain starts, it's never good and it will only get worse.

I'm a believer that "it takes what it takes" - and one thing that AA gets us to face so well is in step 1 part b - "our lives had become unmanageable"....means diff things to diff people, like for my husband v me. He quit because his life was unmanageable, and he quit drinking, finally got a divorce from his first wife, got in shape, started his religious and spiritual journey, and so on. I had to choose to live, whatever that would mean, then do that stuff!

I had one of those moments that you are waiting for and it did help me fight. The thing is, nothing changed. The only difference was I became aware of how much danger I was in. You might be using a "magic moment" of sorts as a way to keep drinking. It may or may not happen but at some point, it is likely you will pay for this in a way you only wish you could take back. You don't have to let that happen.

Since there was a connection we should probably both read St. Augustine quotes until something makes sense to us. That's how SR works for me at least.

That AV is crafty like that. At first, it has a lot of power but after you defeat it over and over it loses most of that. I haven't craved a drink in probably over 5 years but I was in danger of relapse this last year and didn't even know it. It was waiting for me to get down about something and then it would have come out with that line that I can moderate. I busted it out before that happened only because I check up my recovery

I'd say for me, and everybody is a little different, moderation is drinking without too much damage. Getting away with it on a given drunk. Not too hungover, didn't do anything regretful. Then there is also the control of not drinking when I don't want to.

(Long version below) cliff notes: I get in big trouble when I drink.

I was somewhat functioning. I think I really fell in love with alcohol at 14 years old. I never even considered a life without alcohol until my early 40s. I loved it that much. I wanted to avoid going over the edge and needing treatment because I knew that would mean no more alcohol. A very calculating drunk.

My most dangerous drinking was late teens early 20s as far as frequency and consumption. I settled down a bit in my 20s but I needed to drink and smoke pot every night. To stop drinking I would take OTC sleeping pills and just be so tired by the time I could finish a 6 pack on a typical week night. I would still go nuts on many weekends. Lots of cocaine and crack cocaine in my early 20s. I couldnt stand coming down and somehow I quit doing coke. Then in my mid 30s I got into opiates a little bit. I had that a ha, some of my best thinking, I'll bet coming down from coke/crack wouldn't be too bad with this stuff.

Besides the usual bad nights drinking, doing, saying, texting things I regret I had another big problem. Now in addition to that it's how can I drink without spending money, driving drunk, in a dangerous city, doing dangerous things. Like winding up with a needle in my arm to make the anxiety from a crack binge stop.

Despite the junkie I turn would turn into on weekends I followed an insanely strict diet and exercise schedule through the week. So many times I would just suffer through Monday until I ran monday night. 6 miles to think to think OMG how did it happen again. I can't say how many times I ran consumed by the thought of how does this happen to me. How did i lose control, why did I spend that money, why do I drive drunk especially in a dangerous place. This can't continue. Not I need to stop drinking, I need to control myself when I drink. Maybe if I leave my debit card at my moms house. Maybe I can leave my phone over at her house when I drink. I turn into a different person. Maybe I can drive a couple hours away and get drunk in a hotel where I dont know where to score. I moved a couple towns further away from the city. I told a good friend, and well seasoned addict friend of mine Haha, there's no way I will drive drunk that far for drugs. That would be insane. He said once you get that alcohol in you oh yeah you will. So there I am in a new town, drunk, high on crack, weed, and heroin (90% of the time I snorted). I wasnt a complete junkie, YET.

I was right about it being insane to make that drive drunk. I got popped hard by the police, turns out they dont tolerate narcotics and drunk driving here. I was planning on taking my OTC sleeping pills that night to control my drinking but needed just one more drink. Getting high started looking more fun than going to bed. I was charged with a felony and I had somewhat of a corporate, professional job when I wasn't drinking and drugging. To make my long story less long, a lot of factors came into play. I was lucky, I started to reach out to God right before my lawyer sent me to AA.

Besides the getting away with it on a given night there is that other moderation of not drinking on nights I'm supposed to eat right and exercise. Most of the time I didn't drink during the week but once the alcohol starts calling me I'm in trouble. The obsession. Those nights I'm supposed to lift weights but ya know, it was a stressful day at the office wouldn't a mid week drink be nice? I'm sure we all could write a book of reasons we took a drink that we didn't originally plan on. The obsession weakens over time but I dont think it quite dies. When I'm actively using that obsession just lingers over my head like a black cloud. My head was always in a struggle, wanting to work hard, be healthy, have good things, but also just be a drunk & high lazy pig!

Thanks. If that's moderation maybe I did try it. I would go to great lengths to make sure there was nothing to pin on me so that I would be required to stop using. I did the OTCs too as a way to knock me out right around the time I drained the pint I bought for the night. Ugghhh!!!!!

The early days of being harassed by the AV it would say things like "let's just drink one night a week" To which I replied "I know you...there are 52 weeks in the year so you'll use this to drink 52 nights in a row and then suggest 2 nights a week on day 53."

This reminds me a little of the alcoholic way I used to define moderation - drinking as much as I liked, but suffering no bad consequences.

It's no wonder I was never any good at moderation :)

D

The first time I heard someone in AA say, "Maybe you need to drink some more before you're ready to quit," I had a similar reaction to Hodd. I recoiled at the crassness of the remark, but I also read into that an indirect but strong warning and a subtle suggestion that quitting has to be your decision. And in spite of the callousness of the remark, I do believe that quitting has to be our decision. Had someone said that to me when I was considering quitting, it would have sent a chill down my spine that would have caused me to pause and seriously consider. Other's may see it as a green light not to quit, but I don't believe that is the intention of the remark.

It's one thing for a peer in denial to say this, but it's a bit different in AA where such a remark is made in the context of the horror stories about personal experiences with the alcoholic life. It strongly expresses the concept that a person needs to make this decision for themselves. And I believe that's a hard reality. Should a person just go out and continue to drink until he has a moment of clarity? We all hope that an alcoholic wouldn't, but in the end that's what happens.

Alternatively, a person could just be told, they need to quit, but I think many people here would admit they had heard that plenty of times in their own lives, but to no avail. Perhaps a person just needs more knowledge about consequences and warnings about the dangers, but you get a snoot full of that in AA too.

In my experience and for what it's worth, the "go out and drink some more" comment is not something that you hear often in AA.

You don't have to making your quitting contingent on it being "the perfect time" or heralded by the dread warning, "You will die if you don't quit."

You can just quit drinking.

You can.

To think otherwise is to let your addiction make the choice, and you know its always going to pick drinking.

In my experience it is mostly the old timers who have over 30 years sober who say it (tough love) and are relaying what was advised to them. For some reason it use to trigger me . Of course it triggered me and my alcoholic mind. I wanted to drink again and I was like yeah maybe I should. Maybe they are right....that is how sick I was.

I agree with you - this is what I did NOT hear! Thank you for explaining

I also read into that an indirect but strong warning and a subtle suggestion that quitting has to be your decision.

It was mentioned on Saturday so I was reflecting on it after the meeting. I was not triggered for once and it suprised me. If anything I shunned the thought of going out there again. No thanks Im done! I think that is growth for me and a major break through for me.

I guess more will be revealed.

:grouphug:

I think for me, whilst I needed to quit as my drinking was becoming extremely serious and progressing, i.e. drinking in the mornings and getting stuck in binges for over a week where I was unable to stop drinking, it felt right to quit as drinking had ceased becoming fun.

I could no longer drink a bottle of wine and feel really good and buzzing. I would actually not be satisfied, I'd drink and drink chasing a feeling which was no longer arriving and then I'd pass out and wake up the next day in withdrawals.

That indicated to me that quitting was the only option because I had well and truly flogged a dead horse with regards to my drinking. There was nothing left for me but pain and misery but with fleeting moments of fun which were getting less and less.

Going to a bar and having a few drinks, that's what normal people do but for me it left me either unsatisfied and wanting more, or just groggy and tired.

Once you get to the point where you are downing a bottle of wine in the morning to stave off withdrawals, you can't go and have a few sophisticated glasses of wine over dinner with friends and pretend its all normal. I'd passed a line and there was no going back.

I could of wrote this- not as eloquently but I lived this
:You_Rock_

Regarding the AA motto, I can relate to both interpretations. I remember when I came here over four years ago and made my first post about moderation. Someone actually said “a lot of people need to keep on drinking before they decide to quit for good” and I remember the AV absolutely loved hearing that.

Now, some years later, I get how that suggestion is hardly anything to be happy about. The good times are less and less and the pain is more and more.

The AA slogan is there because they know and understand that it’s inevitable...you keep drinking and the pain will bring you back. No amount of reading or lecturing can substitute for that kind of pain.

“Is there really no such thing as a perfect time to quit?”

quite the opposite: there is an infinite number of perfect times to quit. any “now” is one of those.

but if you are waiting for “things” to be in perfect alignment in order to quit, you can easily postpone it forever, as there will be no perfect time to quit.