ColoradoRocky

If you don't mind my asking, GOS, how did it happen? How did that notion that you could drink creep in? Were you at a party, driving by a liqour store, somewhere where there was some free booze? Did you start having cravings or thinking about it earlier? Did anything lead up to it?

I don't mean to pry and I'm not trying to make some underhanded point here; I'd just like to know because 25 years is a long time. Thanks.



As far as the question about relaxing goes, I'm assuming BackandScared you are looking for reassurance that the cravings will go away? It depends. I never had cravings because for some reason I accepted without reservation that I couldn't control alcohol. I gave up fighting it. Until you are fully convinced, down inside you not in your mind, that you can't drink, cravings will be there.

I don't think it's a matter of relaxing; it's simply that because I accepted I couldn't drink, and then worked a good program of recovery (which might be another reason why I never had cravings, I'm not sure to be honest, but I know it didn't hurt) eventually alcohol was no longer relevant in my life because I know I can't drink, just like I know, say, I'll never be world chess champion.

Having said that, I asked for help for the first time in my life and AA and the people there saved my life. That is not hyperbole or romanticized looking back or bullsh*t. As far as "relaxing" goes, my recovery started out focussed on the tools I needed to not drink (say 98% not drinking and 2% life) then gradually shifted (say 50% not drinking and 50% life) over to the tools I needed to live a good life to where I got to 99.9% life and 0.1% not drinking. For me, it took about a year or so; honestly, I can't exactly remember.

Rd2quit

Driguy - to me, recovered means I no longer actively work my recovery. For example, when I went on vacation 2 and half months after I quit drinking I had made significant plans on how I would make sure I would stay sober. Such as I would go back to my hotel by myself when the drinking around me became to much.

I am actually on vacation right now. I am very comfortable around people drinking. I don't need any plans to make sure I'm sober.

I do agree with you that occasionally there can be minor temptations. I had that happen about six months ago with smoking. I was walking to a basketball game in a light rain. A guy standing next to me at the traffic light was smoking a cigarette. For about 5 seconds I thought "that cigarette looks kind of nice." The thought was gone by the time the light turned green and we started crossing the street.

RJY9

Congrats on 74 days! I'm on day 12 and I'm trying my best to clear my mind when the thoughts of booze creep in. I think playing the tape forward to the consequences and the 'yets' is the key for this alcoholic. I can totally relate to everything you said in this post. Keep strong!

Peace
RJ

DriGuy

It's one of those words that has different definitions depending on who you talk to. I have met a couple of people in AA who adamantly call themselves "recovered," even though that seems to be politically incorrect among most of the membership, because according to the program no alcoholic is ever recovered.

Frankly, I'm not entirely comfortable in saying I'm in recovery, because that word means to me a convalescent struggle. I have no sense of convalescence and I certainly experience no struggle, but around AA members, I say I'm in recovery to avoid a debate about a semantic issue which isn't very important to me to begin with. I do understand that we are never over our alcoholism, so I kind of get the concept of perpetual recovery, even if I disagree with it at some semantic level.

When it comes right down to it, I prefer the idea of just being a guy who doesn't drink. That is descriptive enough to explain what anyone needs to know about my relationship with alcohol. It's in the present and describes who I am, not what I was.

When I evaluate myself, my emotions, and my self understanding, I do consider myself recovered. I don't think that's the important issue, however. What I need to do is never drink again. That is the path I'm on, and the only reason I could understand that might take me off that path would a desire to self destruct. But now and for the last 25 years that urge remains incomprehensible.

But here's a bit of personal disclosure that would be embarrassing to any normal person. At one time early on in sobriety, I did have this fear that I could lose control of my body, and against my own conscious will, I would find my hands pouring liquor down my throat much the way the demon in the first Exorcist movie controlled that little girl to act in the vilest of ways imaginable against her own will. Eventually, I rejected that fear as unfounded and irrelevant, because I have never experienced the loss of control over my body that way. And I don't believe in demons that might do it. And if that sort of stuff did happen, no plans, vigilance, or mindfulness would make any difference, anyway.

I included that to suggest that we humans are capable of self torment that serves no real purpose. So why bother allowing it? I don't have an answer. I just choose now to ignore this sort of thing, and the thoughts stopped popping into my head long ago.

Dee74

Recovered versus recovering is probably another thread topic but I have no qualms saying I'm (still) recovering.

The present tense means something to me - my recovery is living and growing along with me.

Just my .02

D

Gottalife

Hi DriGuy, it sure seems that the AA program says that, it's what you hear at meetings quite a lot. However it is untrue. The title page of the Big Book, the written program of AA says "The story of how thousands of men and women have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body" In the foreword to the first edition it states "To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered in is the main purpose of this book" And in working with others it says " Attention should be drawn to you as someone who has recovered" and in the foreword to the second edition they even talk about permanent recovery would you believe. Absolute heresy in some circles I know.

To the OP, I recovered some time in the first three months. It came to me as a sudden realization that the compulsion had gone some time during the process of me working the first nine steps. The problem had been removed as one of the promises says, and there was no need to fight.

It does require a certain amount of vigilance against accidentally ingesting alcohol but otherwise the thought of a drink has never come with any force regardless of what life has thrown at me.

I have heard the recovered state likened to recovery from a gunshot wound. You can recover, but you might get shot again if you are not careful.

To me "not drinking" is just a form of controlled drinking, something I was never able to sustain over any length of time because my thinking always let me down. Correcting the defective thinking is one way of looking at what working the steps did. There is more to it than that of course.

I find myself happy to be helping others in a small way, which action I think helps keep my formerly alcoholic mind from reviving the old compulsive thinking. I find my AA activity very rewarding.

But I have also found complete freedom from alcohol which means more than just not drinking. Alcohol has no say in what I can do or where I can go. That is what recovered has meant for me.

DriGuy

What a written document says is often only tangentially related to what people say it says. How any person or group draws their final conclusions about a philosophy often involves a psychological dynamic that is independent of the original philosophy.

There is an old saying that goes something like, "Never judge a book by... what people say it says." You can judge a book more accurately by judging the accuracy of it's claims. You can judge the value of any independent memes that spring from such a book separately.

The recovery/recovered "debate" reminds me of the nature/nurture debate that was presented in Psychology 101 back in my college years. Whether knowing about the debate is still as important as it once was, I'm not sure. I always viewed it as a curiosity, just as I view the semantics used in alcoholism recovery.

What seems important to me in dealing with alcoholism is the ability to "internalize" potentially useful concepts. I put "internalize" in quotes for emphasis, because it's an actual term that I have only occasionally heard that describes the process I'm talking about. I have adopted the term, because the process seems all powerful to me. It's the process of taking an intellectual concept and making it part of ourselves, rather than just a concept that is intellectually recognized. An example is, "Don't drink, ever." We recognize the concept. We can reject it as irrelevant in our own special addiction, or we can accept it intellectually. But until it becomes internalized as an actual part of our behavior and is accepted at a much deeper level, its power remains largely untapped.

One last thing about a state of never ending recovery that I agree with is that it doesn't really end. Personal growth never ends. The AA steps are fundamentally another approach to personal growth, at least Bill Wilson's concept of personal growth, and according to AA, you never finish them either. The last three steps drive this home with their admonishment to continue to "practice these principles in all our affairs." I agree that personal growth does not end. I don't think it should. Growth is vital to life, but I have yet to internalize that's it's direct connection to sobriety is an absolute. It sure doesn't hurt, but is that the most important test of recovery? Is it the most important tool in everyone's box? Personal growth never ends. Alcoholism never ends, but I'm not sure that means we never actually recover. Semantics!

SnoozyQ

This is a really good question :-)

I would have to say for me that I will always be recovering.

I could never say with any sincere honesty that I am recovered.

I am almost a year sober but have been in SR since 2013.
I have had long bouts of sobriety and just when I think I’m safe ...BOOM !
I will NEVER be complacent again.

I find for me that the longer I am sober , the more dangerous it becomes , even though I have absolutely no desire to drink.

That moment when it’s a warm day and the neighbour hands me a glass of champers and says, come and join us for a drink. ..... I NEVER want to weaken in those moments.

I’m vigilant, I will always have to be . But I’m ok with telling people I don’t drink.

Callas

I am sober but not in recovery at the moment. Recovery for me implies personal growth and controlled emotions. That sometimes leaves us/me. Now I am just treading water, but importantly still sober. Recovery will happen again.

Rd2quit

DRIGUY- I think it is common early in recovery to have subconscious concerns we will drink against our will early in recovery, even though its impossible.

I used to have dreams where I would be drinking or smoking and not even realize it. Then suddenly I would think "what am I doing? I just ruined my sobriety! Then I would wake up relieved it was just a dream.

Igotalife - I 100% agree. I say recovered because alcohol has no control of my life anymore.

BackandScared

Interesting discussion about recovered or recovery.

Only time will tell if I can get to a state of mind and living where alcohol has no central stage.

Thanks again

DriGuy

I had the same the same drinking dream several times. Exactly the same. My dream would begin with me drinking. I have no idea how I got there, but upon waking, I would remain upset for a few minutes, even while realizing it was a dream.

DriGuy

I think you will. I don't know if everyone does or not, but in the beginning of sobriety, it was all consuming for me. I think it has to be, because you're making a big change in your life, and it's hard not to imagine devoting that much energy to sobriety for the rest of your life. With time, it loses the life and death kind of importance.

It's odd when that happens because you've come to rely on that fear and preoccupation as the cornerstone of your sobriety, but instead, sobriety becomes a habit of second nature. I don't think about having a drink today anymore than it would occur to me to smash my car's windshield with a hammer. And it doesn't feel in the least bit dangerous that I don't devote all my waking hours to not drinking (or not smashing my car's windshield).

However, if such an obsessive thought did show up, I'm pretty sure I would be horribly creeped out, and I'd be heading for the nearest meeting as soon as it showed up.