Revenge
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Join Date: Dec 2018
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Revenge
I was an angry young man. In the evenings when I would be drinking in my empty apartment and otherwise wasting my life I would fantasize about revenge. Getting back at them. Hurting the people that I perceived had slammed the door in my face. The people who didn't let me have a seat at the grownup table.
As I've progressed in sobriety I've practiced forgiveness and eliminated those poisonous thoughts from my heart. Recently I was reading some self-improvement articles and came across this quote regarding revenge:
“Wait patiently by the river and the bodies of your enemies will come floating by.”
I've put in the work over the last several years to improve my position in life. My health, finances, job, and overall happiness have improved exponentially. Being completely honest, I do get some satisfaction out of being in a better place than a lot of my "enemies" after putting in time and effort.
I believe revenge can be healthy as long as it comes from a place of lifting yourself up and not pushing the other guy down.
What are your opinions and personal anecdotes? Is revenge a character defect or can it be a healthy motivator for sobriety?
As I've progressed in sobriety I've practiced forgiveness and eliminated those poisonous thoughts from my heart. Recently I was reading some self-improvement articles and came across this quote regarding revenge:
“Wait patiently by the river and the bodies of your enemies will come floating by.”
I've put in the work over the last several years to improve my position in life. My health, finances, job, and overall happiness have improved exponentially. Being completely honest, I do get some satisfaction out of being in a better place than a lot of my "enemies" after putting in time and effort.
I believe revenge can be healthy as long as it comes from a place of lifting yourself up and not pushing the other guy down.
What are your opinions and personal anecdotes? Is revenge a character defect or can it be a healthy motivator for sobriety?
Ocean Lover!
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: You know nothing Jon Snow - UK
Posts: 2,604
For me I see revenge as a form of “ill will” and doesn’t matter what form it takes it’s never good for the soul. I am sure I once read the Buddha called revenge “mental acid” and I agree.
Taking any form of pleasure in another person’s suffering isn’t healthy for us. Yes, celebrate the fact you have come so far but to get pleasure that someone you don’t like is not doing as well as you are won’t lead to a peaceful and positive place for anyone xx
Taking any form of pleasure in another person’s suffering isn’t healthy for us. Yes, celebrate the fact you have come so far but to get pleasure that someone you don’t like is not doing as well as you are won’t lead to a peaceful and positive place for anyone xx
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I wouldn't regard it as a healthy motivator. The thing for me was that I'd still be carrying those people, or things that happened around with me, and that isn't freedom.
When I read your post, Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning came to my mind, writing about his experiences of being in a concentration camp...a snippet '"that when everything else is snatched away, what alone remains is the last of the human freedoms - the ability to choose one's attitude in a given set of circumstances"
It;s not easy stuff this, so that could easily sound glib, but the beginning is asking the kind of question you have asked....often those questions come to me when I'm not at ease with my motives or what is driving me.
When I read your post, Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning came to my mind, writing about his experiences of being in a concentration camp...a snippet '"that when everything else is snatched away, what alone remains is the last of the human freedoms - the ability to choose one's attitude in a given set of circumstances"
It;s not easy stuff this, so that could easily sound glib, but the beginning is asking the kind of question you have asked....often those questions come to me when I'm not at ease with my motives or what is driving me.
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
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i prefer forgiveness over revenge.
on this:
I do get some satisfaction out of being in a better place than a lot of my "enemies" after putting in time and effort
its only your opinion that youre in a better place when in reality they can be in a better place than you.
on this:
I do get some satisfaction out of being in a better place than a lot of my "enemies" after putting in time and effort
its only your opinion that youre in a better place when in reality they can be in a better place than you.
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Me and my father had a turbulent relationship when I was growing up. During my drinking years there were often screaming matches because that was my way of getting my point across when I was angry...which was pretty much all the time. My mother and my sister would blame me after the fact regardless of who was "at fault" because I was the alcoholic.
I've forgiven my father and try to maintain a cordial relationship since he is family but we are not pals nor will we ever be. Fortunately my relationship with my mom and sister have never been better. I know they are proud of me and they are my biggest advocates as it relates to my sobriety.
Recently we had a family gathering for my nephew's birthday. My father said something which had crossed a personal boundary. Rather than explode on him like I used to, I gave him the death stare and sternly told him to stay in his lane. For the first time ever my mom and sister both told him he was being out of line.
This was a new family dynamic. Before I would have lost my temper, been the bad guy, and had to deal with all of the fallout. But now he was the one who was being called out for acting inappropriately. After it happened he sheepishly stopped talking and didn't really say much for the rest of the dinner.
I used to want unspeakable revenge on him while I was drinking. Instead what happened was I merely improved upon myself and let him act like he always does. I saw on his face that getting "betrayed" by my mom and sister hurt him.
Is this considered healthy revenge? Maybe vindication? I don't know. I sure did enjoy seeing his sullen face after he got told to shut the hell up. If this is a character defect than all I can do is ask for forgiveness and to work on it.
I've forgiven my father and try to maintain a cordial relationship since he is family but we are not pals nor will we ever be. Fortunately my relationship with my mom and sister have never been better. I know they are proud of me and they are my biggest advocates as it relates to my sobriety.
Recently we had a family gathering for my nephew's birthday. My father said something which had crossed a personal boundary. Rather than explode on him like I used to, I gave him the death stare and sternly told him to stay in his lane. For the first time ever my mom and sister both told him he was being out of line.
This was a new family dynamic. Before I would have lost my temper, been the bad guy, and had to deal with all of the fallout. But now he was the one who was being called out for acting inappropriately. After it happened he sheepishly stopped talking and didn't really say much for the rest of the dinner.
I used to want unspeakable revenge on him while I was drinking. Instead what happened was I merely improved upon myself and let him act like he always does. I saw on his face that getting "betrayed" by my mom and sister hurt him.
Is this considered healthy revenge? Maybe vindication? I don't know. I sure did enjoy seeing his sullen face after he got told to shut the hell up. If this is a character defect than all I can do is ask for forgiveness and to work on it.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
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I have a problematic relationship with my folks too.
My dynamic was like yours - always the bad guy, then moving to a little more assertive.
It's been a long time now. Scoring points and keeping score was absolutely on my mind in the beginning, but I moved past that.
I moved on past a lot of other stuff too.
My parents did their best and still do. Sometimes I felt that best was woefully inadequate but I love them anyway.
My dad will still try and rile me up for whatever dad reason.
I can react to that now in a positive way.
Him baiting people's got everything to do with him and nothing to do with me.
I guess if you see that as revenge then its revenge but that's not the word I'd use ..revenge sounds like the battle is ongoing, but for me, it's not
D
My dynamic was like yours - always the bad guy, then moving to a little more assertive.
It's been a long time now. Scoring points and keeping score was absolutely on my mind in the beginning, but I moved past that.
I moved on past a lot of other stuff too.
My parents did their best and still do. Sometimes I felt that best was woefully inadequate but I love them anyway.
My dad will still try and rile me up for whatever dad reason.
I can react to that now in a positive way.
Him baiting people's got everything to do with him and nothing to do with me.
I guess if you see that as revenge then its revenge but that's not the word I'd use ..revenge sounds like the battle is ongoing, but for me, it's not
D
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Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 2,966
Forgiveness, acceptance and "meh... whatever", Works for me. I no longer feel the need to be correct in any pointless arguments. If I'm wrong I say "my bad". If I'm right....who cares? Sun's still coming up tomorrow.
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Atlanta
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I had to learn that death stares like I perfected were....bad for me. That took time. My mom def got one at the nice dinner celebrating my 9 mo date.
All of this had to shift from anger- I was never much one for the bitterness or revenge areas of wishing and fantasizing about - but it was me that I had to change. Period.
All of this had to shift from anger- I was never much one for the bitterness or revenge areas of wishing and fantasizing about - but it was me that I had to change. Period.
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Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 5,162
This is a good thread and the revenge thing was very important in my life and my recovery. I thought the OP was honest, resonant, important, and probably more descriptive of our true selves (if only at one time) than any of us even likes to admit. While reading ThinkNot's post, I was like, hey Bud, right on! Your nailing it... until revenge came up which was the only thing described that no longer fits in my life. Everything else resonated.
I may have been the master of revenge fantasies at one time. I would spend days in the Montana Wilderness, cranking off miles and miles of trail in the most beautiful scenery in creation, and all the way up the trail, I would be fantasizing about ripping someone a new one, picturing them in agony as their life was falling apart.
This was part of my resentment scenario, and in truth, it was my life and my joy that was falling apart. I was the one suffering, wrecking my day, and I was doing it while I was in the most splendid place on the Earth. Even at the time, I would think, "There is something wrong with this picture."
When you truly let go of your resentments, the revenge fantasies go away. I know this sounds like everyone is trying to be politically correct, but the truth spoken in this thread is monumental. Another by-product of letting go was that I had forgiven my father, and issue that had bothered me all my life. Fact is, I never worked on this issue. I never felt ready to deal with it. But forgiveness came as a by product of letting go of resentments. My father had serious faults, but forgiveness is a unilateral action that requires nothing in return, and it feels good.
There is no real need to wait for your dead enemies to come floating by on the river. There is no longer anything to be gained or lost from it. Now I will admit a certain satisfaction from watching the downfall of a supposed enemy one time. It was somewhat satisfying when I watched it. I admit it, but not needing revenge is a greater satisfaction. And much more emotionally healthy.
Dropping this emotional baggage before it becomes a problem is possible, but I'm running out of steam, and finding that path is a whole other thread. Best of luck on your journey. Best of luck to all of us, because none of our journeys have ended yet.
I may have been the master of revenge fantasies at one time. I would spend days in the Montana Wilderness, cranking off miles and miles of trail in the most beautiful scenery in creation, and all the way up the trail, I would be fantasizing about ripping someone a new one, picturing them in agony as their life was falling apart.
This was part of my resentment scenario, and in truth, it was my life and my joy that was falling apart. I was the one suffering, wrecking my day, and I was doing it while I was in the most splendid place on the Earth. Even at the time, I would think, "There is something wrong with this picture."
When you truly let go of your resentments, the revenge fantasies go away. I know this sounds like everyone is trying to be politically correct, but the truth spoken in this thread is monumental. Another by-product of letting go was that I had forgiven my father, and issue that had bothered me all my life. Fact is, I never worked on this issue. I never felt ready to deal with it. But forgiveness came as a by product of letting go of resentments. My father had serious faults, but forgiveness is a unilateral action that requires nothing in return, and it feels good.
There is no real need to wait for your dead enemies to come floating by on the river. There is no longer anything to be gained or lost from it. Now I will admit a certain satisfaction from watching the downfall of a supposed enemy one time. It was somewhat satisfying when I watched it. I admit it, but not needing revenge is a greater satisfaction. And much more emotionally healthy.
Dropping this emotional baggage before it becomes a problem is possible, but I'm running out of steam, and finding that path is a whole other thread. Best of luck on your journey. Best of luck to all of us, because none of our journeys have ended yet.
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 8,674
This touches a chord with me in a significant way.
My mom is sober now, but during allll the on and off drinking yrs there was one specific person she had so much hatred and bitterness and revenge fantasies about that they were common rants when she was drinking. His name is burned in my brain- as is the fact that her obsession was something I just couldn't square with....perhaps that is why this particular character defect (not sure it would be titled revenge but y'all get the gist) has been significant that I recall - I do have plenty of others
I'm not sure, actually, that she has let go of it even 35 yrs later - she mentioned it awhile ago but framed it that she really blamed y person for "all of it." Le sigh. But- up to her and part of her recovery. And a lesson for me.
My mom is sober now, but during allll the on and off drinking yrs there was one specific person she had so much hatred and bitterness and revenge fantasies about that they were common rants when she was drinking. His name is burned in my brain- as is the fact that her obsession was something I just couldn't square with....perhaps that is why this particular character defect (not sure it would be titled revenge but y'all get the gist) has been significant that I recall - I do have plenty of others
I'm not sure, actually, that she has let go of it even 35 yrs later - she mentioned it awhile ago but framed it that she really blamed y person for "all of it." Le sigh. But- up to her and part of her recovery. And a lesson for me.
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
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Is this considered healthy revenge? Maybe vindication?
now that ya give an example of what youre referring to, IMO-neither. id consider it letting someone know their actions are unacceptable around you- boundaries.
we dont have to be doormats for anyones inner turmoil.
I sure did enjoy seeing his sullen face after he got told to shut the hell up. .
maybe it wasnt that you enjoyed seeing the sullen face as much as you felt good to have other family members finally stand up to him and he got the message?
if ya got a kick out of his misery-yeah, not good. self justification?false pride?
good to read ya lookin at it and learning.
now that ya give an example of what youre referring to, IMO-neither. id consider it letting someone know their actions are unacceptable around you- boundaries.
we dont have to be doormats for anyones inner turmoil.
I sure did enjoy seeing his sullen face after he got told to shut the hell up. .
maybe it wasnt that you enjoyed seeing the sullen face as much as you felt good to have other family members finally stand up to him and he got the message?
if ya got a kick out of his misery-yeah, not good. self justification?false pride?
good to read ya lookin at it and learning.
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Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 365
Revenge is toxic, and I struggled with vengeful thoughts as an angry young man too. Glad I'm over it. Now I seek to clear my own karma and hope others can do the same.
There's an interesting meditation exercise where you ask that all the negative karma you've laid on other people, intentionally or unintentionally, be brought back to you so that you can process it and eliminate it (because only we can clear our own karmic debt, nobody else can). Then you humbly ask that any negative karma laid on you by others, intentionally or not, be sent back form whence it came so that they can deal with it. When you practice a few times, you can actually feel the relief. It's like taking a karmic dump.
On the surface, that sounds vengeful, right? It's not because you're wishing well to others in giving them the ability to deal with their own stuff.
There's an interesting meditation exercise where you ask that all the negative karma you've laid on other people, intentionally or unintentionally, be brought back to you so that you can process it and eliminate it (because only we can clear our own karmic debt, nobody else can). Then you humbly ask that any negative karma laid on you by others, intentionally or not, be sent back form whence it came so that they can deal with it. When you practice a few times, you can actually feel the relief. It's like taking a karmic dump.
On the surface, that sounds vengeful, right? It's not because you're wishing well to others in giving them the ability to deal with their own stuff.
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Originally Posted by DriGuy 
There is no real need to wait for your dead enemies to come floating by on the river. There is no longer anything to be gained or lost from it. Now I will admit a certain satisfaction from watching the downfall of a supposed enemy one time. It was somewhat satisfying when I watched it. I admit it, but not needing revenge is a greater satisfaction. And much more emotionally healthy.
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Join Date: Nov 2018
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I remember a woman at a speaker meeting once who was talking about what an ***hole her boss was. She decided she would turn her resentments toward him over to God, so she wouldn't have to hold the resentment anymore. As it turns out, her boss, who apparently really was an ***hole did something that got him fired, and he left in humiliation and disgrace, much to her delight. The lady pointed out how turning it over to God solved her resentment because God did her work for her and gave him what he deserved.
Well, OK, I guess that works, but I couldn't help but think that this woman didn't quite have the hang of this thing.
Well, OK, I guess that works, but I couldn't help but think that this woman didn't quite have the hang of this thing.
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Originally Posted by WeThinkNot
I think this is the answer I was looking for. The goal is to get to a point where I've matured enough that it's not something I care to see. But if I see the downfall of an enemy (I use the term loosely of course) I don't know if I'll ever get to a Zen like state where I won't at least enjoy it. That is a human fault.
I would also add that this kind of forgiveness may not become a constant and always apply to every situation. We have a tendency to describe our selves in more black and white terms: "Once I was that. Now I am this." In reality, we are more like this and less like that, and that may be the best we can hope for. I don't know. I haven't arrived yet.
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Join Date: Apr 2019
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Good post and thread. I know the correct way of thinking is to not harbour revenge but I admit freely that I fail in this. What I have noticed though is that as I progress in sobriety feelings of revenge change to indifference and sometimes disappear altogether. But then again this also happened when I was still drinking. Over time most things that seemed at the time significant become insignificant.
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