To those of you, who still drink: why not engage in “drunk sobriety” behavior?
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 25,373
I don't understand any of this thread.
It's a shout-out to people still drinking and saying, "I'm okay, you're okay, no need to quit, today - just become a better person and it will fall into place later." (?) Is that the gist of it?
I seriously hope I'm misreading this.
I'm glad if some version of this is what helped, but it could have just as easily gone the other way, StevenW. You could have died while you were doing all this - in any number of ways.
If someone has crossed the line into alcoholic drinking, I'm going to have to say, "Quit now, do whatever it takes to quit now. Become a better person later."
I think that if your house is on fire don't go room to room fluffing the pillows and dusting the furniture. Get out the house.
It's a shout-out to people still drinking and saying, "I'm okay, you're okay, no need to quit, today - just become a better person and it will fall into place later." (?) Is that the gist of it?
I seriously hope I'm misreading this.
I'm glad if some version of this is what helped, but it could have just as easily gone the other way, StevenW. You could have died while you were doing all this - in any number of ways.
If someone has crossed the line into alcoholic drinking, I'm going to have to say, "Quit now, do whatever it takes to quit now. Become a better person later."
I think that if your house is on fire don't go room to room fluffing the pillows and dusting the furniture. Get out the house.
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Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by ScottFromWI 
I've got to be honest, that sounds like circular logic and mental gymnastics to me too.
A reminder that promoting drinking in any shape or form is strictly against forum policy. I"m not suggesting that your "method" is promoting drinking or moderation directly, but if I were a newcomer to a sobriety site and saw that it was OK to keep drinking for a while until I was really sure I wanted to try quitting my AV would take off running with it.
A reminder that promoting drinking in any shape or form is strictly against forum policy. I"m not suggesting that your "method" is promoting drinking or moderation directly, but if I were a newcomer to a sobriety site and saw that it was OK to keep drinking for a while until I was really sure I wanted to try quitting my AV would take off running with it.
You have sober self. Feed it it. Start here and now. Build on it. So, tell me, what is wrong with that?
What sounds illogical to you is the thesis, that even if you still drink you should start to feed your sober self. Your argumentation would be then “start feeding your sober self, once you are sober”. So, the question is, do you wait? If not, is this a bargain to continue drinking? No, it is not.
Still drinking is why people come here in the first place. So it is a requirement for my argumentation. You mistake that for an excuse or mental gymnastics to continue drinking, when I simply say start now and here. Because it elevates your chances to get sober earlier, no matter what.
Putting words in your mouth I say you mean “try to stop drinking right now”. And as a general advice I absolutely agree with that, but most often that remains wishful thinking. Besides it is irrelevant to my point above. Now what doing with these members who still drink? Advising to stop? Yes of course.
When I am writing about my own way of way of getting sober this was not by any means to realize I am an addict and stop right away. So I had those days. And if I read this forum correctly this is the case by the fast majority of all members here sharing their story and experiences. That is not to say that you should continue drinking, why should it?
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Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by biminiblue
I don't understand any of this thread.
It's a shout-out to people still drinking and saying, "I'm okay, you're okay, no need to quit, today - just become a better person and it will fall into place later." (?) Is that the gist of it?
I seriously hope I'm misreading this.
I'm glad if some version of this is what helped, but it could have just as easily gone the other way, StevenW. You could have died while you were doing all this - in any number of ways.
If someone has crossed the line into alcoholic drinking, I'm sorry but I'm going to have to say, "Quit now, do whatever it takes to quit now. Become a better person later."
I think that if your house is on fire don't go room to room fluffing the pillows and dusting the furniture. Get out the house.
It's a shout-out to people still drinking and saying, "I'm okay, you're okay, no need to quit, today - just become a better person and it will fall into place later." (?) Is that the gist of it?
I seriously hope I'm misreading this.
I'm glad if some version of this is what helped, but it could have just as easily gone the other way, StevenW. You could have died while you were doing all this - in any number of ways.
If someone has crossed the line into alcoholic drinking, I'm sorry but I'm going to have to say, "Quit now, do whatever it takes to quit now. Become a better person later."
I think that if your house is on fire don't go room to room fluffing the pillows and dusting the furniture. Get out the house.
The example of the burning house makes not really sense regarding my argumentation, its way oversimplified. of course you should get out of your house reps. stop drinking. But being an addict is not like you see you house burning all of a sudden and get out now, it is a process of realization, self doubt and overcoming internal demons. Of course as fast as possible, but you need more than just the ability step out, otherwise you would not be an addict.
No Dogma Please
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: SoCal
Posts: 2,562
Congrats on your ten months!
This would not have worked for me. I was too seriously physically addicted at the point when I needed to stop, and had it not gotten that bad, I almost definitely would have continued limping along. I found moderation was too much work, even in times when I drank more "normally" and there were long phases in my life where I was able to do this. However, life stress would kick in and it would invariably accelerate.
I think you've added a layer onto moderation here, it's being mindful of your drinking while also being mindful of how to live a sober lifestyle and concentrating on that. It's not just moderation so that you can continue to drink, it's moderation with the goal of complete cessation. Positive reinforcement rather than relying solely on the negative. Positive reinforcement worked wonders for me, to the point where I can mentally compare not being on any intoxicant to various states of even mild intoxication (like a drink or two) and honestly say that I far prefer a sober mind state. This was huge in my case even in early sobriety, not just that drinking destroys my life, but on ALL levels sobriety is better.
To me, the best recovery method is the one that works for you. I can see this as a trigger for some, as for me, if I'd tried to use this method I never would have gotten to sobriety at all.
Although ten months is great, is your longterm goal lifetime sobriety? Have you made the leap that continuing to drink any amount at this point in your sobriety threatens it? What are you relying on to continue sobriety? If you are using AVRT principles, a crucial part of AVRT is to decide that you are no longer a drinker, and under no circumstances will you ever drink again. It's a cornerstone to my recovery, along with medical management of underlying mental health issues and psychotherapy. Although I don't believe in discussions about which recovery method is better in theory and for people in general, I do think it's important to have SOME framework for continued sobriety.
What's your ongoing intention and steps?
This would not have worked for me. I was too seriously physically addicted at the point when I needed to stop, and had it not gotten that bad, I almost definitely would have continued limping along. I found moderation was too much work, even in times when I drank more "normally" and there were long phases in my life where I was able to do this. However, life stress would kick in and it would invariably accelerate.
I think you've added a layer onto moderation here, it's being mindful of your drinking while also being mindful of how to live a sober lifestyle and concentrating on that. It's not just moderation so that you can continue to drink, it's moderation with the goal of complete cessation. Positive reinforcement rather than relying solely on the negative. Positive reinforcement worked wonders for me, to the point where I can mentally compare not being on any intoxicant to various states of even mild intoxication (like a drink or two) and honestly say that I far prefer a sober mind state. This was huge in my case even in early sobriety, not just that drinking destroys my life, but on ALL levels sobriety is better.
To me, the best recovery method is the one that works for you. I can see this as a trigger for some, as for me, if I'd tried to use this method I never would have gotten to sobriety at all.
Although ten months is great, is your longterm goal lifetime sobriety? Have you made the leap that continuing to drink any amount at this point in your sobriety threatens it? What are you relying on to continue sobriety? If you are using AVRT principles, a crucial part of AVRT is to decide that you are no longer a drinker, and under no circumstances will you ever drink again. It's a cornerstone to my recovery, along with medical management of underlying mental health issues and psychotherapy. Although I don't believe in discussions about which recovery method is better in theory and for people in general, I do think it's important to have SOME framework for continued sobriety.
What's your ongoing intention and steps?
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Big City
Posts: 3,895
I for one think I understand where you're coming from, even though I also understand where others are feeling some reticence regarding your approach. I think at the end of the day what you're suggesting is that there is work to be done even in the midst of our drinking. I can respect that. It took me a long time, luckily not too long, for me to finally put down the booze for good. I think what you're trying to identify is that, for those here who are still struggling to stop drinking, all should not be abandoned.
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Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by MindfulMan
To me, the best recovery method is the one that works for you. I can see this as a trigger for some, as for me, if I'd tried to use this method I never would have gotten to sobriety at all.
Although ten months is great, is your longterm goal lifetime sobriety?
What's your ongoing intention and steps?
Although ten months is great, is your longterm goal lifetime sobriety?
What's your ongoing intention and steps?
I personally rely on various techniques ranging from AVRT, trigger avoidance, to awareness training. I have all intentions of never drinking again alcohol, but am aware of the danger at armlength. But what helped me in terms of fulfillment and easiness is my shift in self perception. Formerly I considered myself a lifestyle drinker, blindly consuming and a hedonist. Today I view myself as an athlete, responsible and reliable person.
Again, the habits for this self perception I started when I still was drinking, like working out, taking care of ma grandma, etc. Now, this is more ful blown, this lifestyle just doesn’t go along with drinking. I learned some from Rich Roll and then later in Sobriety Jordan Peterson gave me some points to think about.
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Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by lessgravity
I for one think I understand where you're coming from, even though I also understand where others are feeling some reticence regarding your approach. I think at the end of the day what you're suggesting is that there is work to be done even in the midst of our drinking. I can respect that. It took me a long time, luckily not too long, for me to finally put down the booze for good. I think what you're trying to identify is that, for those here who are still struggling to stop drinking, all should not be abandoned.
But also, no matter what, once you realize you have a drinking problem, it makes sense to start a habit that is healthy, build it up, because that might help one. The problem with this argumentation is, that you must still drink to make the argument valid, but this means in no way still drinking is OK. I say it just helps towards sobriety no matter if you taper off or stop all at once.
It took me as you a long time, and it just dosn't make sense to not adress this period. I am glad you made it, keep going.
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 8,674
Not going to get into the weeds on this anymore, as I am not trying to be argumentative - but a last question, StevenW - I just noticed your join date. Why did you just come onto SR? You mention using different methods for your sobriety, if I got that correct out of your long posts, and I guess I am wondering how we fit in when you just joined and introduce yourself with this thread? Like Scott said, the site is not about supporting any kind of prolonged/continued drinking by any "method" (emphasis mine).
Anyone around here who's read more than a couple of my posts knows how I put alcoholism in life and death terms. Whenever I see someone using a lot of words to explain something that boils down to a do you or don't you, are you pregnant or not question, it primarily raises concerns that this is someone who will lose their life to this disease.
Anyone around here who's read more than a couple of my posts knows how I put alcoholism in life and death terms. Whenever I see someone using a lot of words to explain something that boils down to a do you or don't you, are you pregnant or not question, it primarily raises concerns that this is someone who will lose their life to this disease.
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Join Date: Feb 2019
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@ August, I quote myself from my first post here.
Maybe you my read more carefully, before raising these questions. And when you quote Scott regarding contiued drinking support, you still did not get my point, maybe you are too focused on you own perspective.?To me it's a matter of life and death, too, believe it or not. That is why I put the effort into it.
But one thing is for sure, we are both sober, that is good. I wish you all the best for this one.
Originally Posted by StevenW
I wrote this using a new user name to be safe, that no one could track back my real name, since some friends know I am a member of this forum.
But one thing is for sure, we are both sober, that is good. I wish you all the best for this one.
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Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: NY
Posts: 327
Blindly consuming and hedonistic, I like that , that could describe me. I put the drink down 15 months ago, no big event just after 40 yrs of drinking with a wicked last 10 yrs I had to stop.. I think I get where you are coming from but that would not have worked for me . As soon as I picked up a drink all bets were off and I was gone for the day. I could still do stuff around the house make dinner and other things but drunk.
When I stopped god , I walked my dogs for hrs thru the woods in the beach just to keep myself busy. My only goal was to not drink that day and then the next etc etc.
I’m glad you have 10 months keep it up. I guess whatever way works for you is great. For me I had to abstain , I couldn’t play with it anymore if nothing changes nothing would have changed for me. I’m not very good at this writing thing.
When I stopped god , I walked my dogs for hrs thru the woods in the beach just to keep myself busy. My only goal was to not drink that day and then the next etc etc.
I’m glad you have 10 months keep it up. I guess whatever way works for you is great. For me I had to abstain , I couldn’t play with it anymore if nothing changes nothing would have changed for me. I’m not very good at this writing thing.
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,432
Hi Steven,
If I have learned anything it's that people get sober in all kinds of ways - congrats on your 10 months btw.
Your way would not have worked for me though.
My approach was similar I think, albeit a far less intellectual and more intuitive process...
I resolved only to drink from 5pm.
I figured that was better than drinking all day and it might give me some sober time to sort things out.
2 things happened - I drank at a horrendous pace come 5 o clock.and I felt lousy the next day and if I didn't start drinking again when I got up, it was pretty soon after that.
The 5 o clock experiment died a quick death usually within 2/-3 days at most..
I know why now too.
I had a lot of good intent but all my good intent evaporated once alcohol entered my system. It changed me. Every time,
Thats why I believe, based also on my experience, that no lasting change can really occur until we're completely 100% sober.
About the two wolves thing. I was not the first one here to use it but I've used it a lot as a recovery allegory. I think you may be misreading the intent of the parable.
The intent is not to feed the bad wolf less - it's to not feed him at all.
You want the bad wolf to starve. You want it to die.
In a fight to the death there's no such thing as a two way bet
D
If I have learned anything it's that people get sober in all kinds of ways - congrats on your 10 months btw.
Your way would not have worked for me though.
My approach was similar I think, albeit a far less intellectual and more intuitive process...
I resolved only to drink from 5pm.
I figured that was better than drinking all day and it might give me some sober time to sort things out.
2 things happened - I drank at a horrendous pace come 5 o clock.and I felt lousy the next day and if I didn't start drinking again when I got up, it was pretty soon after that.
The 5 o clock experiment died a quick death usually within 2/-3 days at most..
I know why now too.
I had a lot of good intent but all my good intent evaporated once alcohol entered my system. It changed me. Every time,
Thats why I believe, based also on my experience, that no lasting change can really occur until we're completely 100% sober.
About the two wolves thing. I was not the first one here to use it but I've used it a lot as a recovery allegory. I think you may be misreading the intent of the parable.
The intent is not to feed the bad wolf less - it's to not feed him at all.
You want the bad wolf to starve. You want it to die.
In a fight to the death there's no such thing as a two way bet
D
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
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I wrote this using a new user name to be safe, that no one could track back my real name, since some friends know I am a member of this forum.
D
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Strailya
Posts: 8,019
Well done on 10 months ! From what you've described, it seems as if you had essentially created a sobriety plan and was implementing it step by step. Would it be fair to say that scientific rationalism was driving the construction of this ? As well, there would appear to be a large amount of self-discipline involved. I am very glad that it worked for you.
As I drank to self-medicate for emotional reasons, unfortunately this style wouldn't have worked for me. Logic and self-discipline (what I personally call white-knuckling) wasnt part of my tool kit then ! I had to do the traditional rock bottom and seek emotional support route.
As I drank to self-medicate for emotional reasons, unfortunately this style wouldn't have worked for me. Logic and self-discipline (what I personally call white-knuckling) wasnt part of my tool kit then ! I had to do the traditional rock bottom and seek emotional support route.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 11
Since there has been lots on confusion, I try to rephrase. Maybe I put too many levels of content into this post to make points clearly understandable:
Start a healthy habit, that does NOT feed your alcoholic self perception. Sports, Walks, Drink a Smoothie. If you think you don’t have the discipline, lower the bar to something you can do, e.g. drink fully aware two glasses of cold water each morning.
The point is not just doing it occasionally but start small habits and rituals, that you repeat, that you can do.
Now, why is that important? Newer research has shown that this kind of constant feedback loop enables change, it gives you sense of control and may result in a gradual shift of your self perception. And self perception is a very strong driver of behavior change, besides environmental changes, having strong reason and willpower.
The key here is not to ask yourself for too much discipline, but to lower the bar, so that you feel comfortable to get into that constant feedback loop. Do, what feels manageable, you don’t need to plan anything out. Then let it grow by whatever feels OK for you. For instance add two movements of stretching once you have fortified the water drinking and feel safe.
The focus is here more on the internal manageable than on what is effective. This may shift later on, when you will have build up your capabilities.
In the overall picture this will help you as an addict, no matter if you are still drinking or being sober.
A lot on this topic of “incremental change” came up recently researched by authors mentioned. This is in no way intended to be a sufficient way of get rid of alcohol addiction, but it is well worth to be thought of as a driver for change. Please do NOT view above as a allowance for continued drinking of any sort just because the approach takes time. Please see it as something you can do besides all your efforts to stop drinking for good.
I used a new user name - wasn’t active with the old one for month - just to be able to completely open up here on my own story. And since some friends I recommended this forum may knew my user name, I decided to use new one for this. Dee, you can shut down the user name right after this one has been closed, if you want to.
Start a healthy habit, that does NOT feed your alcoholic self perception. Sports, Walks, Drink a Smoothie. If you think you don’t have the discipline, lower the bar to something you can do, e.g. drink fully aware two glasses of cold water each morning.
The point is not just doing it occasionally but start small habits and rituals, that you repeat, that you can do.
Now, why is that important? Newer research has shown that this kind of constant feedback loop enables change, it gives you sense of control and may result in a gradual shift of your self perception. And self perception is a very strong driver of behavior change, besides environmental changes, having strong reason and willpower.
The key here is not to ask yourself for too much discipline, but to lower the bar, so that you feel comfortable to get into that constant feedback loop. Do, what feels manageable, you don’t need to plan anything out. Then let it grow by whatever feels OK for you. For instance add two movements of stretching once you have fortified the water drinking and feel safe.
The focus is here more on the internal manageable than on what is effective. This may shift later on, when you will have build up your capabilities.
In the overall picture this will help you as an addict, no matter if you are still drinking or being sober.
A lot on this topic of “incremental change” came up recently researched by authors mentioned. This is in no way intended to be a sufficient way of get rid of alcohol addiction, but it is well worth to be thought of as a driver for change. Please do NOT view above as a allowance for continued drinking of any sort just because the approach takes time. Please see it as something you can do besides all your efforts to stop drinking for good.
I used a new user name - wasn’t active with the old one for month - just to be able to completely open up here on my own story. And since some friends I recommended this forum may knew my user name, I decided to use new one for this. Dee, you can shut down the user name right after this one has been closed, if you want to.
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,097
Maybe just stop drinking. Any attempts at moderation -dress it up how you like, what you are suggesting IS morderation/tapering, even on a temporary basis - would not work for me or many others. What's the point in prolonging the inevitable.
I agree it's unfair to suggest this on here, newcomers will read and maybe try it thinking it's ok. Well he got sober moderating and tapering before really quitting up so I'll do the same? Just my thoughts.
I agree it's unfair to suggest this on here, newcomers will read and maybe try it thinking it's ok. Well he got sober moderating and tapering before really quitting up so I'll do the same? Just my thoughts.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,432
Hi Steven
I'm afraid I had to get uncomfortable to quit.
If I kept trying to change while still remaining comfortable I'd probably still be drinking - or dead.
read my thread 'don't be the frog' sometime.
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...dont-frog.html (Don't be the Frog)
I appreciate you feel passionately about the way you got sober and I read the caveats you made in your last post but I still think your method, as applied in this context, is dangerous.
Alcoholism/addiction is deadly. Its not like biting nails or not putting the toilet seat down when you're done.
I think your method is ill suited to a newcomers forum and so I'm going to shut down the discussion here.
I'm also going to close your new account. If you want to go back to your old name that's up to you but I'd ask that you leave the non abstinence methods to other websites in future thanks.
Dee
Moderator
SR
I'm afraid I had to get uncomfortable to quit.
If I kept trying to change while still remaining comfortable I'd probably still be drinking - or dead.
read my thread 'don't be the frog' sometime.
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...dont-frog.html (Don't be the Frog)
I appreciate you feel passionately about the way you got sober and I read the caveats you made in your last post but I still think your method, as applied in this context, is dangerous.
Alcoholism/addiction is deadly. Its not like biting nails or not putting the toilet seat down when you're done.
I think your method is ill suited to a newcomers forum and so I'm going to shut down the discussion here.
I'm also going to close your new account. If you want to go back to your old name that's up to you but I'd ask that you leave the non abstinence methods to other websites in future thanks.
Dee
Moderator
SR
Last edited by Dee74; 02-06-2019 at 04:01 AM.
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