making a contract
Canine Welfare Advocate
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 10,962
So sorry for what brings you here, Angel.
Sort of sounds like an ultimatum. Sort of. The definition of an ultimatum is a demand which, if not met, will result in some serious consequence.
"You will do this: ________________________, or else: ____________________"
You have no "or else".
I can't say if an ultimatum would even work. And I can can see from your later posts that you don't want to leave him, or kick him out, i.e. issue a consequence. But contract or not, there is nothing in your request that will force your husband to comply with your wishes.
I second you visiting our friends and family section.
Originally Posted by Angelachase 
I told him that he has one week to show me that he can commit to daily meetings, a home meeting, and getting a sponsor, and that we will re-visit whether or not I believe inpatient is the only way.
"You will do this: ________________________, or else: ____________________"
You have no "or else".
I can't say if an ultimatum would even work. And I can can see from your later posts that you don't want to leave him, or kick him out, i.e. issue a consequence. But contract or not, there is nothing in your request that will force your husband to comply with your wishes.
I second you visiting our friends and family section.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,103
It sounds like you have already exhausted yourself trying to get him to WANT to fight for a happier life together with you.
The tactics that you have been using are not only unhealthy they are not working. The new tactic of a contract is nothing more than words on a piece of paper. What’s your plan if he says, I’m not signing it or agreeing to this?
Believe him! His words tell you what you want to hear but his actions show you reality.
I’ve seen a fair share of woman push their husbands like you are attempting to do with yours. The usually solution for the husband who wishes to continue to drink is to leave the marriage in order to put a stop to all of that nagging so they can just drink in peace as they wish.
The tactics that you have been using are not only unhealthy they are not working. The new tactic of a contract is nothing more than words on a piece of paper. What’s your plan if he says, I’m not signing it or agreeing to this?
But he says he wants nothing more but to be sober and stay that way. He just says he wants to do it HIS way
He claims that he IS sober. I just know that his behavior tells a different story.
Oh, and I have attended several al anon meetings...but I have to say the mentality I got from it, of either leave or let it be, is not an option for me.
Ocean Lover!
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: You know nothing Jon Snow - UK
Posts: 2,604
Originally Posted by Angelachase
Oh, and I have attended several al anon meetings...but I have to say the mentality I got from it, of either leave or let it be, is not an option for me. I don't believe in it.
Originally Posted by Angelachase
But he says he wants nothing more but to be sober and stay that way. He just says he wants to do it HIS way.
Best of luck with whatever you decide to do, like others here I know if my partner did the same to me I would be really angry and it would make me drink more but we are all different and respond differently. x
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 8,674
I did just think of one other thing. It is possible he is what I would refer to as a dry drunk. Sober, technically, but not working a program, hence no change in anything except his abstinence. From my experience with an alcoholic mother, that was almost worse, or at least equally bad, as her active drinking- it was MORE crazy making for our family on a whole new level.
Regardless, choosing to stay with an alcoholic is up to every individual. Just like getting into what real recovery would look like to many of us is up to every individual alcoholic.
Regardless, choosing to stay with an alcoholic is up to every individual. Just like getting into what real recovery would look like to many of us is up to every individual alcoholic.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
i am remembering something from decades ago.....a friend of mine's dad was frequently accused of having been drinking, as he'd stumble, almost fall, walk wonky, but he swore he was sober. family ddn't believe him, as he used to get drunk.
turns out he had an inner ear problem with whatever that body part is that relates to balance...
anyway, it made me wonder what makes you so sure he is drinking?
turns out he had an inner ear problem with whatever that body part is that relates to balance...
anyway, it made me wonder what makes you so sure he is drinking?
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
revisiting: the difference between boundaries and expectations.
boundaries are about us, and what we are unwilling to accept and will do when unacceptable "stuff" happens.
expectations are something we put on others.
seems like you are putting the expectations out there, but not setting boundaries, actually.
if he really is drinking, your expectations are just an annoyance that interfere with his drinking.
if he really does want nothing more than t,o get and stay sober, he is right, imo, to want to do it HIS way. he has to find his way, and that often includes the my-way-thing not working out and returns to drinking and trying different ways or the same one over and over...until he finds HIS way.
and his way might well be one that has worked for many others.
boundaries are about us, and what we are unwilling to accept and will do when unacceptable "stuff" happens.
expectations are something we put on others.
seems like you are putting the expectations out there, but not setting boundaries, actually.
if he really is drinking, your expectations are just an annoyance that interfere with his drinking.
if he really does want nothing more than t,o get and stay sober, he is right, imo, to want to do it HIS way. he has to find his way, and that often includes the my-way-thing not working out and returns to drinking and trying different ways or the same one over and over...until he finds HIS way.
and his way might well be one that has worked for many others.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Texas
Posts: 754
Wow. I feel for both of you. You cannot force a grown man to sign a contract or work a program other than the one he feels works for him.
I’m sober and working a program but my husband is not. I cannot change the way he is just as he cannot change me. It has to come from the inside. I choose to stay with him as he is and I show by example.
Maybe try a different Alanon meeting. They are definitely not all the same and you could really use some support. 💕
I’m sober and working a program but my husband is not. I cannot change the way he is just as he cannot change me. It has to come from the inside. I choose to stay with him as he is and I show by example.
Maybe try a different Alanon meeting. They are definitely not all the same and you could really use some support. 💕
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 10
Fini- I've been struggling with exactly that! Last year he wound up in the ER twice with kidney failure. The dr said that his liver was fine, and that it was not alcohol related.
I've often said to him, "either you're drunk, or having a stroke, because something is clearly wrong!" Sometimes I'm very worried that in fact he's being totally honest, and NOT drinking, but that there is something much worse going on. He's made an appointment with a cardiologist, and I've suggested a neurologist as well. He passed out last week. just stopped breathing, eyes open, face bright red. and I had to slap him awake. It looked like a seizure to me. He thinks maybe blood pressure spike or drop. I'm thinking that upon seeing the cardiologist, perhaps he'll refer him to a neurologist.
I just dont' want to be looking for some cause of his health issues, looking for any other reason for him to be slurring, when the most obvious reason is that he's drinking. I don't want to be naïve, and make excuses for him, just because I WANT to believe him when he says he's sober.
Thank you, Fini, for suggesting that...it does make me feel a little less crazy. lol ;-)
I've often said to him, "either you're drunk, or having a stroke, because something is clearly wrong!" Sometimes I'm very worried that in fact he's being totally honest, and NOT drinking, but that there is something much worse going on. He's made an appointment with a cardiologist, and I've suggested a neurologist as well. He passed out last week. just stopped breathing, eyes open, face bright red. and I had to slap him awake. It looked like a seizure to me. He thinks maybe blood pressure spike or drop. I'm thinking that upon seeing the cardiologist, perhaps he'll refer him to a neurologist.
I just dont' want to be looking for some cause of his health issues, looking for any other reason for him to be slurring, when the most obvious reason is that he's drinking. I don't want to be naïve, and make excuses for him, just because I WANT to believe him when he says he's sober.
Thank you, Fini, for suggesting that...it does make me feel a little less crazy. lol ;-)
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
well, good then that he is having things checked out.
clearly something is very wrong.
if he is having kidney failure unrelated to drinking and now seizures and slurring...sounds really reasonable to get other stuff checked very thoroughly.
but nevertheless, you opened this thread by saying you believe he is drinking, so....
all these suspicions and this justified lack of trust/belief is so tough on a relationship.
clearly something is very wrong.
if he is having kidney failure unrelated to drinking and now seizures and slurring...sounds really reasonable to get other stuff checked very thoroughly.
but nevertheless, you opened this thread by saying you believe he is drinking, so....
all these suspicions and this justified lack of trust/belief is so tough on a relationship.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,429
Kidneys can be badly affected by alcohol use--all organ systems can be damaged, and it isn't always easy to measure what caused the damage, so I don't think you can be certain that past or current drinking is not a factor.
The brain and nervous system can also have lifelong damage from alcohol abuse--chronic lack of vitamin B, common in alcoholics, can lead to something like this which has some symptoms in common with what you are seeing:
https://www.webmd.com/brain/wernicke...syndrome-facts
A doctor is of course needed to check if this may be the case or not.
What does your gut tell you about him drinking now?
Typically a spouse will know in their heart if there has been a relapse and usually they are right.
He can't be drinking and also a dry drunk.
He's one or the other, and hopefully someday he will choose the third option, recovery, which is the only one that will have a good outcome.
There is a person on Friends and Family who talks about a method called CRAFT, which involves the family in recovery.
The trouble is, you really have to have the alcoholic at least be honest about their drinking / that they have a problem and also their willingness to really embrace change.
I think if someone won't admit they have a problem or be fully willing to fix it whatever it takes, the outcome cannot be positive.
As long as you keep the house and family together, whether or not he works or drinks, he has little incentive to really seek recovery--I think that's what people are trying to say.
I really hope things work out well for all of you and he chooses recovery.
The brain and nervous system can also have lifelong damage from alcohol abuse--chronic lack of vitamin B, common in alcoholics, can lead to something like this which has some symptoms in common with what you are seeing:
https://www.webmd.com/brain/wernicke...syndrome-facts
A doctor is of course needed to check if this may be the case or not.
What does your gut tell you about him drinking now?
Typically a spouse will know in their heart if there has been a relapse and usually they are right.
He can't be drinking and also a dry drunk.
He's one or the other, and hopefully someday he will choose the third option, recovery, which is the only one that will have a good outcome.
There is a person on Friends and Family who talks about a method called CRAFT, which involves the family in recovery.
The trouble is, you really have to have the alcoholic at least be honest about their drinking / that they have a problem and also their willingness to really embrace change.
I think if someone won't admit they have a problem or be fully willing to fix it whatever it takes, the outcome cannot be positive.
As long as you keep the house and family together, whether or not he works or drinks, he has little incentive to really seek recovery--I think that's what people are trying to say.
I really hope things work out well for all of you and he chooses recovery.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 10
Fini, thanks for asking...
I'm kind of in a holding pattern. I simply posted the list of beginner meetings on the fridge. After the feedback I got here, I decided that I'm not saying anything about it. He definitely sees by the look on my face that I'm not happy, but he hasn't said anything at all about going to a meeting since the conversation at the beginning of the week. The night I originally posted this, he wasn't feeling well, and just said "I really don't feel good, I'm just going to lay here tonight...instead of going to a meeting, is that OK?" and I just shrugged and left the room. He's not mentioned going, since.
We argued last night, over the dog, of all things. She's a rescue, and she's fearful, we've had her two months, and she hasn't warmed up to him. It makes him sad that we finally got a dog and she wants nothing to do with him. however, I've made a half dozen suggestions about what he should be doing to try to help the process of getting her to trust him (I've worked with animals, and know quite a few behaviorists) "maybe if you tried this..." but he just keeps saying "it's never going to change." And I said to him, ""right. so like everything else, don't even bother putting in any effort." The conversation went in a circle, and I wanted to scream. Eventually, he said "fine, I'll do what you say, we'll see." and he went to bed. It went in pretty much the same way our conversations we have about his recovery. "I'm doing good! I don't need to do anything!" Me: "but don't you think you could be feeling better if you had some support?" Him: "I have you, that's all I need. I don't need to talk to other people."
so, obviously, that goes nowhere either.
My birthday is Tuesday, he texted me before "I have to buy you presents!" I said, "we really don't have money...and there's only one thing I want." (For years, every birthday, Christmas, anniversary, I've told him, "all I want is for you to be sober and happy.")
He said "a unicorn?" to which I responded "It would seem I'd have better luck asking for that..."
I'm kind of in a holding pattern. I simply posted the list of beginner meetings on the fridge. After the feedback I got here, I decided that I'm not saying anything about it. He definitely sees by the look on my face that I'm not happy, but he hasn't said anything at all about going to a meeting since the conversation at the beginning of the week. The night I originally posted this, he wasn't feeling well, and just said "I really don't feel good, I'm just going to lay here tonight...instead of going to a meeting, is that OK?" and I just shrugged and left the room. He's not mentioned going, since.
We argued last night, over the dog, of all things. She's a rescue, and she's fearful, we've had her two months, and she hasn't warmed up to him. It makes him sad that we finally got a dog and she wants nothing to do with him. however, I've made a half dozen suggestions about what he should be doing to try to help the process of getting her to trust him (I've worked with animals, and know quite a few behaviorists) "maybe if you tried this..." but he just keeps saying "it's never going to change." And I said to him, ""right. so like everything else, don't even bother putting in any effort." The conversation went in a circle, and I wanted to scream. Eventually, he said "fine, I'll do what you say, we'll see." and he went to bed. It went in pretty much the same way our conversations we have about his recovery. "I'm doing good! I don't need to do anything!" Me: "but don't you think you could be feeling better if you had some support?" Him: "I have you, that's all I need. I don't need to talk to other people."
so, obviously, that goes nowhere either.
My birthday is Tuesday, he texted me before "I have to buy you presents!" I said, "we really don't have money...and there's only one thing I want." (For years, every birthday, Christmas, anniversary, I've told him, "all I want is for you to be sober and happy.")
He said "a unicorn?" to which I responded "It would seem I'd have better luck asking for that..."
Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Lakeside, Arizona
Posts: 1,138
When I quit drinking for an entire year I was not myself.
I had brain fog, it was hard to think. Mood swings. Depression. Apathy. Impatient. Hard to focus. Frustrated. Easy to anger.
It takes time for a brain to adjust to being normal when it’s been inebriated for so long. It really sucked for a long long time. It was hard for my wife to deal with me. She reminds me my withdrawal was t just hard for me.
I had brain fog, it was hard to think. Mood swings. Depression. Apathy. Impatient. Hard to focus. Frustrated. Easy to anger.
It takes time for a brain to adjust to being normal when it’s been inebriated for so long. It really sucked for a long long time. It was hard for my wife to deal with me. She reminds me my withdrawal was t just hard for me.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,442
Hi and welcome Angela 
I think it must be one of the loneliest things in the world to be the loved one of an alcoholic.
I lost not one but two long term relationships over 20 years.
I hope your husband will grab hold of recovery and not let go.
I was a fairly hopeless end phase kinda case and I pulled myself back from the abyss.
It is possible
D
I think it must be one of the loneliest things in the world to be the loved one of an alcoholic.
I lost not one but two long term relationships over 20 years.
I hope your husband will grab hold of recovery and not let go.
I was a fairly hopeless end phase kinda case and I pulled myself back from the abyss.
It is possible
D
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
in a way, the unicorn comment is telling, as you are hitting on how it is as far as your "getting what you want".
asking for it, wishing, loving, posting meetings, conversations, pleading, pointing out the rational...none of it has "worked". which is where those comments come from re letting go and leaving be and taking control of the things you really can control.
he might believe that "you are all i need" is an uplifting statement to the receiver, but in fact it is a horrible and unfair burden to put on another.
puts you in a horrid spot, and one that is not yours. i understand about the vows you spoke of earlier, and the commitment, and wanting the best and doing whatever you can. but there is stuff here you can't. beyond you.
stuff he has to come to want to do, or see the need of doing.
regardless whether that is about his relationship with the dog, you, booze, others, himself.
i'm sorry...sounds like i'm lecturing, when i am trying for empathy.
asking for it, wishing, loving, posting meetings, conversations, pleading, pointing out the rational...none of it has "worked". which is where those comments come from re letting go and leaving be and taking control of the things you really can control.
he might believe that "you are all i need" is an uplifting statement to the receiver, but in fact it is a horrible and unfair burden to put on another.
puts you in a horrid spot, and one that is not yours. i understand about the vows you spoke of earlier, and the commitment, and wanting the best and doing whatever you can. but there is stuff here you can't. beyond you.
stuff he has to come to want to do, or see the need of doing.
regardless whether that is about his relationship with the dog, you, booze, others, himself.
i'm sorry...sounds like i'm lecturing, when i am trying for empathy.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 573
There are people in the world who, for whatever reason cannot seem to be both sober and happy. It's one or the other for them. And I was one of them. There was nothing my ex wife, my parents, my friends or anyone else could do to make me see that what I was doing was wrong. In fact, the only thing that was able to make me change was facing the consequences of my actions, which in my case was being divorced by my wife and losing my home. I don't tell you this to scare you. I only say it because for 90% of the alcoholics out there who have really embraced recovery in any meaningful way have had to face horrible consequences to get to that point. What will be your husband's bottom? Hard to say. But if you keep telling yourself you will never leave him under any circumstances you may have to prepare to deal with the status quo in your home for a very very long time. Hugs to you.
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