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Old 08-13-2018, 05:47 PM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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I no longer take any mind altering substances. I used to do coke but only when drunk. I wouldn't touch coke if sober. However, if I was to take something mind altering, it would most likely lead me back to drinking, as ti would take the edge off if i felt out of it.

For me living sober is living a life with no drugs at all. Drugs never have agreed with me anyway. Alcohol didn't either.
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Old 08-13-2018, 07:33 PM
  # 22 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by bringmeback7693 View Post
Recently a girl with 5 years sober came into a meeting and said that she'd taken an unprescribed oxycontin and was wondering if that constituted as a relapse. She never had a problem with opiates- alcohol was her main thing. Everyone in the meeting encouraged her to pick up a white chip and reset her sobriety date, so she did.

This to me doesn't really seem fair. She is still 5 years sober from alcohol- why should one pill from something you weren't addicted to reset your ENTIRE sobriety?

And where does this leave us with marijuana, CBD, etc? Clearly people in AA drink caffeine alcoholically- why is this not seen as a problem? Afterall, copious amounts of caffeine are somewhat comparable to drugs like adderall or cocaine.

I'm just curious. Since my sobriety date (4/29/18) I haven't indulged in any other substances besides caffeine. But does that mean, if someday I take a hit of a joint, I have to reset my WHOLE sobriety date?

What do you guys think? What are your opinions on marijuana, CBD, anxiety meds, sleeping meds (OTC)?
Making someone restart their sobriety date because of one pill of something they never had an issue with is pure BS. You really didn't say whether it was for recreation or for pain, so that makes a bit of difference, too. I also take exception to this concept of having to string together consecutive days as a measure of your sobriety. If you've been off alcohol for an extended period of time (counted in years) and you have a drink or two, that's nothing to be ashamed of. Now, if you completely fall off the wagon and go back to full-blown drinking, that's a problem. Every person should know their limitations. But nobody should shame another person for one moment of indiscretion. And I wonder how much of this situation was a matter of a bunch of folks dragging that girl down to make themselves feel better.
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Old 08-13-2018, 09:12 PM
  # 23 (permalink)  
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Wow. I totally get the logical arguments on both sides, but if I were to judge the situation, I would totally err NOT on the side of rules or dogma, but on the side of compassion for the person.

You don't say whether the group asked her why she took the oxy, whether they offered kind and helpful advice, etc. so it's hard to really know what happened.

Gosh, though, if it were me, and I admitted to taking one unscripted oxy, and a group of people set my sobriety clock back 5 years? I think I'd be so sad and humiliated I'd want to drink.

Based on what you've said, I do think the "punishment" was a little draconian and inhumane. Why would she confess if she weren't, on some level, asking for help, advice, understanding, empathy, compassion or something along those lines?

I hope she at least got THAT in return for seemingly having been treated like Hester Prynne in The Scarlet Letter.
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Old 08-13-2018, 09:19 PM
  # 24 (permalink)  
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I hope we hear from more AAers - it's not like a court and no ones on trial

From what I read, this girl asked for opinions and got them.

Sure some in the room may have had strong opinions on what this girl should do - but there's been some pretty strong opinions expressed here in this thread too - that doesn't make anyone here a zealot

D
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Old 08-13-2018, 09:29 PM
  # 25 (permalink)  
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AA was created in the 30's and while still highly effective for sobriety, is sometimes not up to date. Guzzling coffee and chain smoking cigs was (and for the most part still is) the gold standard of AA.
The use of a "mind altering" substances is part of a very grey area these days as many people need them for mental health and other issues.
In the end, if this person was looking for a new path of addiction, the chip was needed. If not, then it was a complete overreaction.
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Old 08-13-2018, 09:58 PM
  # 26 (permalink)  
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I'd be a bit more leery if it was 'Hey, an oxy, let's PARTY!" (wow, that doesn't even sound remotely fun) or "Crap, turned my ankle. There's some oxy in the medicine cabinet left over from when Hubby had his surgery. That might hold me until morning."

TBPO, I wouldn't even think twice about taking a pain pill in that circumstance. It's not my drug, I pretty much always hated opiates, but they do kill pain.

It would be a different story if I were a recovering junkie.
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Old 08-14-2018, 12:53 AM
  # 27 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Forward12 View Post
Guzzling coffee and chain smoking cigs was (and for the most part still is) the gold standard of AA.
I'm old enough to remember those days of blue-haze AA meetings. And I'm still guzzling coffee and chain smoking cigs. I'm not proud of it, I recognize the addictions and the health risks. I still use the term "sober," because I was a big old drunk, and now I don't drink.
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Old 08-14-2018, 02:08 AM
  # 28 (permalink)  
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5 years alcohol free is 5 years alcohol free. One Oxycontin doesn’t negate that, especially if pills weren’t an issue.

Intent, therefore, is irrelevant.
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Old 08-14-2018, 03:19 AM
  # 29 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Dee74 View Post
I hope we hear from more AAers - it's not like a court and no ones on trial
D
Sure glad to oblige. I count myself as an AAer. Here is my thought on the matter. If we are debating sobriety dates I would simply look at the sobriety date celebration coin for the answer:

To thine own self be true.
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Old 08-14-2018, 03:31 AM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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I took an unprescribed pain pill, a perc to be specific, last winter and I didn't change my quit date. I also ate some Jamaican rum cake without thinking until I started wondering why my brain was getting so excited about a piece of cake, and I didn't reset my quit date either.

I am positive that I'm addicted to sugar. It is the same thought processes and those same reward center in my brain are being stimulated that happened with alcohol.... trying to control it, feeling guilty after binges, swearing off only to find myself going back for only a "few". I consider sugar to be a drug and I'm hooked. But I don't reset my quit date every time I eat an ice cream bar, or two.

I think it's a personal decision... some people are more purist than others.

To me it seems silly for someone to reset their whole quit date over taking a pill that they were never addicted to in the first place. And I don't think it's the kind of thing that can be imposed on someone from others. In fact doing so can be very discouraging and counter productive.
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Old 08-14-2018, 03:41 AM
  # 31 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by AAPJ View Post
Sure glad to oblige. I count myself as an AAer. Here is my thought on the matter. If we are debating sobriety dates I would simply look at the sobriety date celebration coin for the answer:

To thine own self be true.
Agree and for me, and my understanding of the program of AA none of this is (should be) about shame or judgment of anyone who relapses. I say relapse intentionally bc most of you know I loathe the use of the word slip as it implies accidental use and I always believe we make a choice to use or not.

I don't believe an amount of sobriety is or should be thrown away; however, whether you literally count days or not, AA is about continuous sobriety. That is even asked when giving out chips in many meetings. I also believe it is a slippery slope - most stories I hear of what I am about to say support this- when someone in the program has a drink or two....which is a version of moderation...because it so typically leads to greater "justifiable" use at some point.

Also, I too struggled with a sweet addiction, specifically ice cream and frozen yogurt, after my back injury that had me sidelined, emotionally fraught even depressed at one point...and I saw parallels to my anxiety around having enough yogurt in hand to my past with vodka. I did a step one and rectified my addict brain directing my behavior. I also avoid foods with alcohol, including research ahead of time on menus, learning about what typically includes alcohol , like many pasta sauces, and sending something in question back or stopping to eat it immediately. This works for me.

I do not believe that prescribed and monitored mental health meds are mind altering in the same way as what we commonly call drugs (of which alcohol is indeed one). Medicine is a tool that supports my sobriety, emotional and therefore physical. To me, this is a whole other discussion about things like good drs with addiction expertise for example, efficacy, duration of use, intent, etc.

Again I am speaking from my ESH, experience and two and a half years of listening to others and importantly, observing their behaviors.

Anyone who chooses to drink again should be welcomed back - all AA the program requires is a desire to stop drinking whether it is for the first and only time (my plan which I work daily to execute) or the umpteenth.
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Old 08-14-2018, 07:36 AM
  # 32 (permalink)  
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I wouldn’t have reset my date, but I also would not have asked the room. If you ask a pastor in the pulpit about sex before marriage, they’ll say it’s a sin. If you ask a room full of AAers AT AN AA MTG if you should reset your date, they’ll say yes.

She asked for a reason, imo, and maybe she needed that support to help make sure that the pain pills didn’t become a thing, even if they hadn’t been in the past.
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Old 08-14-2018, 05:06 PM
  # 33 (permalink)  
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A few thoughts:

What I find curious is why take the pill in the first place? Was it for pain? Then why not go to a doctor and discuss - especially the aspects of sobriety - and get a prescription? Might be fine, might not. But opiates are no joke and shouldn't be taken in any circumstances without the supervision of a pro - and even that is dicey sometimes.

It sounds like a negotiation to me. And curiously absent is any real examination of motive. As soon as I start seeing the equivocation about caffeine and what about cannabis, etc.. red flags and red alerts start going off in my head. That's just flat out negotiation - which is a well known and common tactic of our AV.

There's a very slippery slope to the relativism and equivocation of arguments like "everything is addictive to a point." The problem is that that's technically kind of true in terms of how our brain chemistry works. But if you never draw a line and question motives and values and stop bs-ing yourself and just run in circles in relativistic arguments you'll find yourself in chaos one way or another regardless of how technically sound you think your argument is. Waxing philosophically is pointless if you can't use the information in a concrete, meaningful, constructive way to advance your values.

At some point we have to exert what we value on our world through action. Questioning the motives behind our actions in an honest and transparent way is essential to sobriety IMHO.

Standing outside looking in, I see an ego-centric behavior, I see negotiating terms of sobriety, I see use of an opiate with a tinge of denial that it could be 'a problem,' and I see little to no questioning of why it's even important to find some substance she can put in her body that alters her perception and/or consciousness that can rest outside the definition of an -ism. The technical points of the argument may all be true - and they may stay true as her life descends back into hell. The technical points of the argument will continue - and they'll be of absolutely no help to her if she gets hooked again.

Seems like a lot of energy being spent on something that isn't really necessary anyway. Also seems like a lot of potential for ye ole 'play with fire, get burnt.'

Keep it simple. Stay sober. Commit.

In the big picture, day 1 vs. day 1000 is inconsequential and meaningless really. Being sober right now is everything.

-B
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Old 08-14-2018, 08:07 PM
  # 34 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by KarltheheretiK View Post
Making someone restart their sobriety date because of one pill of something they never had an issue with is pure BS. You really didn't say whether it was for recreation or for pain, so that makes a bit of difference, too. I also take exception to this concept of having to string together consecutive days as a measure of your sobriety. If you've been off alcohol for an extended period of time (counted in years) and you have a drink or two, that's nothing to be ashamed of. Now, if you completely fall off the wagon and go back to full-blown drinking, that's a problem. Every person should know their limitations. But nobody should shame another person for one moment of indiscretion. And I wonder how much of this situation was a matter of a bunch of folks dragging that girl down to make themselves feel better.
There's a lot to discuss with your mindset on this issue but I have a simple question. How does one go back to "full-blown drinking" after years of sobriety? The answer is one drink. Falling off the wagon always starts with one drink or one pill or one of anything that you are using to deal with life because you don't know a better way how to.

If I thought I could have a "drink or two" when I wanted than I wouldn't have strung together enough days to reach 6 years of sobriety tomorrow. I'm sure happy I have the AA mindset and not your mindset or I would have never seen a week sober. I'm also very lucky to have had a sponsor who would never let me get away with "a moment of indiscretion" because if he had I would possibly be dead or in jail today. Instead I have a family and a good job and a generally happy life.
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Old 08-15-2018, 10:28 AM
  # 35 (permalink)  
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I like AA and go to a meeting most days. more than anything else AA is what has kept me sober for awhile now. I myself really don't care about the chips or counting days but I do understand its a help to others. I am very aware of my sobriety date and recognize the milestones in my head. I would never of said anything and it wouldn't have changed my date. I think people share too much at the meetings anyways, especially on outside issues (not that this is one). as far as I know the chips and counting days as well as a sobriety date have nothing to do with the program and you won't see anything about any of it in any of the literature including the big book. it's a fellowship thing. I've been only going about 2 years and don't really know all the ins and outs and if I am wrong I hope I am corrected.
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Old 08-15-2018, 02:00 PM
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Sobriety means no recreational drugs (which can include prescription drugs taken without the prescription) at all. I did not quit drinking only to become addicted to something else.

I have actually seen a lot of examples of this, but largely the reverse. Someone had an issue with illegal drugs, beat that addiction, but still socially (or worse) drinks. No matter what it is not good.
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Old 08-15-2018, 05:39 PM
  # 37 (permalink)  
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if someone were able to just drink sociably (and not worse) then where would be the problem? that would be a true alcoholics dream but not reality. one pill one time to beat back some severe pain (if that's the case) shouldn't negate 5 yrs. of sobriety. those are the people I stay away from at the meetings.
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