Numblady

Not sure if I’m posting in the right board or not but see so many smart people commenting on other posts I’m trying my luck here first. This is less about sobriety than it is about life advice but it seems like the patterns that drove us to the bottle are some of the same that drive us to other habits or to low self worth, limited actualization and agency, and so forth.

Anyhow I am a manager at the executive level in my job and sometimes this comes with making tough decisions that hurt people’s feelings. This happened today when I had to turn someone down for a job who was in many ways a better candidate but I based the decision primarily on longevity of the other candidate. I botched the handling of the whole thing, and part of me knows that part of making decisions is that I won’t always make the right one. My heart hurts for disappointing someone, for not being certain I made the right call, for prioritizing short term relief for what may not be better long term. I guess I know that eventually the discomfort will pass and that’s mainly enough but if I could get better at not spending the interlude between now and that point thinking I’m a terrible jerk a hole that would be better. I don’t think that about myself in my rational mind but when I hurt someone especially I have a refrain that sneaks into my mind about what a basically worthless human I am. Does anyone else have this for whatever reason? What do you do to make the pain go away faster (other than drinking/drugging)? Or is there anything other than the passage of time?

Thanks so much in advance!

Dee74

I was always very upset about people being sad at me. angry at me, not liking me any more or creating conflict and disquiet over decisions I made.

I wanted to please everyone - but that was as impossible for me as becoming a normal drinker was...and of course my drive for perfection and my failures at attaining it meant I drank more and more to anaesthetise myself.

I've learned in recovery that I can only do my best. That's it.

and sometimes my best is way better than other days & sometimes not, but it's all I've got.

Sometimes it works out with everyone happy and sometimes not -but I can leave every situation more reasonably sure I did everything I could to bring things to a mutually satisfactory end.

I don;t know how to speed up the process to feeling alright about yourself again, but I notice I don;t go down the rabbit hole of despair and self hatred that I used to.

I try to be generous when other people make mistakes - it would be silly of me not to extend that same thoughtfulness to myself

D

Healthyandsober

Hi Numblady,

People make these kind of decisions everyday and do not bat an eyelid, the fact you care speak volumes. Caring makes you a better human being by default.

Sometimes people are not the best fit and maybe that is not their position. Hopefully eventually that person will find a role perfect for them.

Feedback is a good thing if you are allow by HR and company policies to give it. We miss great lessons in life because we think failure is just that: I lost someone else won. Failure can be a lesson specially if comes along with constructive feedback.

I hope you feel better soon.

Nonsensical

I don't get to determine your worth.
I don't get to determine Dee's worth.
I don't get to determine Anna's worth.
And I don't get to determine MY worth.

I am not the determiner of such things. We all inherently have value. Choosing to believe we are worthless is as counterproductive as it is pointless. It isn't in our power to determine.

You made the best decision you knew how to make based on the information you had. That's what was needed. That's what you did.

If you don't enjoy doing that, maybe you're in the wrong line of work? (After I sobered up I realized I was!)

Rock on!

Numblady

Thank you all so much. Dee, what you wrote resonated so much I’m subscribing to the thread! I felt somewhere deep down that there is a pattern between this terrible me and drinking but you articulated it far better than I could.

Healthyandsober, your post is really kind. I think part of what makes me who I am is that I can generally feel where other people are coming from. It makes it easier for me to help reach compromises or just communicate what others are saying in a more neutral way. But it also makes me feel either side of each decision as if I’m on both sides of it. Or all sides of it. Which regularly makes it more difficult, especially when it comes to those decisions in which people are personally and emotionally invested, like promotions and achieving their vision for how to make the team better, all quite laudable and normal. I really like your idea of giving some more feedback. I’m already thinking I’ll set a meeting with the non-selected candidate to brainstorm some ideas to achieve some more of what her vision is. She is a visionary person and is the one big thinker I have on the team. I want to retain her and eventually promote her. I just hope she’ll stick with us long enough for that to happen. But if she leaves well that’s not ultimately in my control.

Nonsensical, your posts regularly blow my mind. I’d never thought I don’t get to determine my own worth. I like it. Because it also means I’m also not determining the worth of my two candidates. I’m really just making the best decision I can about the best fit for right now. Even if it’s not even the right decision it’s not any kind of permanent arrangement or lifelong commentary on them as people. I do think I’m in the right line of work but I do hate some of the HR aspects of my role. Hiring is generally not this difficult for me. But firing people sucks even if it is a relief once it’s over. And arduous in the documentation and lead-up. I aspire to slink into some type of special projects role after doing this gig for a while longer, so I can stick with the issues and subject matter I love but not be at the helm of a team of over 150. Management is something I’m decent at but it sure is not my calling!

Sorry for long post. I’m putting off working out so I tend to drone on

doggonecarl

You seem to be plagued by ANTs...Automatic Negative Thoughts. This is unhelpful thinking. But it can be lessened with simple techniques.
-------------------
CHALLENGING AUTOMATIC NEGATIVE THOUGHTS (ANTs)


Although we all have unhelpful thoughts (ANTs) from time to time, and although we are not always very aware of them, the good news is they can be changed and that by challenging or questioning these thoughts, you can feel happier and more in control. Practice the following simple steps:

1. Be aware of what you are saying to yourself. Ask yourself –

“What is going through my mind?” or “What is it about this situation that is upsetting me?”

2. Challenge your thoughts. Remember, just because you think something doesn’t mean it’s true. Ask yourself –

Is this thought helpful? Am I being realistic? Is this an example of one of the common ANTs?

3. Consider the following strategies & ask yourself some of these questions:

Look for evidence:

What’s the evidence for and against my thought? Am I focusing on the negatives and ignoring other information? Am I jumping to conclusions without looking at all the facts?

Search for alternative explanations:

Are there any other possible explanations? Is there another way of looking at this? How would someone else think if they were in this situation? Am I being too inflexible in my thinking?

Put thoughts into perspective:

Is it as bad as I am making out? What is the worst that could happen? How likely is it that the worst will happen? Even if it did happen, would it really be that bad? What could I do to get through it?

4. What is a more helpful thought?

What can I say to myself that will help me remain calmer and help me achieve what I want to achieve in this situation?

© Dr. Timothy J Sharp (2002, 2006)

boreas

As far as your decision, I support your inclusion of one candidate’s longevity in your thought process. I wish all managers took such important decisions to heart as you do, and company loyalty does have weight just as experience and talent does.

I consider second-guessing myself, as well as beating myself up for how I handle things, to be something I am so good at it is detrimental. Maybe genetic, as my son does the same. I tell him, and try to take to heart myself, that the only time you are at fault is when you don’t take the knowledge that you could have done something better and apply it as you go forward. Beating myself up is pointless, but applying the lessons learned makes me (hopefully) a better person today than yesterday. I’m not perfect, but I’m trying to be better, and that journey continues.

I constantly read on these boards the sentiment that everyone is doing the best they can with where they are/what they’ve got on a given day. Surprise, that includes me! And you! We deserve a little kindness and patience too.

MindfulMan

Wow, I totally heard this Numb.

Thanks to everyone in this thread. It couldn't be more timely for me. I was pretty crappy to my physical therapist yesterday. We weren't a good match and I have been getting frustrated with our work. I voiced my concerns and she just wasn't getting it. Finally at the end she kept doing what I told her was causing me frustration and I just got up, said "I'm done," and walked out. She discharged me and said we should no longer work together. It was our 7th session, I had been cleared for 5 more.

I'm pretty appalled by my behavior. I'm facing a lot of acute stress in my life right now, but that's no excuse. It's not the result, I definitely think it wasn't working for me and I either needed to just stop the PT or get a different person. It's how I handled it. I got too caught up in people pleasing. I wasn't connecting with the work, she kept making every move so complicated that I couldn't remember where we started. But I stayed there too long; I guess I didn't want to be hurtful by saying "Hey, this isn't working. I think you're great, but our communication styles don't seem to be working." Then we could have had a conversation about what to do. Instead I blew up and acted like a total jerk.

This really threw me for a loop, and I also went to the "I'm a horrible worthless useless person" place. More importantly for this site, it triggered really strong cravings. I was in a painful place and just wanted to numb out.

Thanks again all. I look forward to the continued replies and dialogue.

boreas

I value this kind of introspection, and try to do it myself. I think it’s dangerous when you try to rationalize away behavior that your not proud of...the old, “Well, that OTHER guy did...”. After all, rationalization is what allowed me to drink as long as I did, because at least I didn't drink as much as (insert random person). But I don’t want to be the least jerky of the jerks, I’d rather try to be fair, centered, balanced, measured at all times in all situations. What a tall order! So your sitting with the uncomfortable acknowledgment that it wasn’t your finest moment has value.

However, jumping from not your finest moment to “worthless” is a HUGE leap. We are all the sum of our actions and experiences. Just here, on this anonymous message board, I often seeing you try to help others. That speaks volumes about your character.

Best wishes through your rough patch. I think of my sobriety as a continuum, moving either closer to or farther away from a drink. When I know the pendulum is swinging the wrong way, I know it’s time to take steps to move myself back to contentment.
-bora

Numblady

Doggone, that is really helpful. ANTs. I definitely want to come back to those questions when I am more awake. Glad I subscribed to the thread!

Boreas, how interesting you see it in your son as y ou see in yourself. I think now that you mention it it’s the same with mine.

MM, I went into the law and yet I absolutely hate confrontation. I can feel your pain after the blow up. I struggle so much with not only how to have difficult conversations but how to know when it’s just something my own ego is trying to advance versus something I really should bring up with someone. It can drive a person bonkers. But hopefully not drive us to drink. I don’t have any words of wisdom but just, yes! I totally get where you are coming from. So far in addition to the post what I’ve found helpful is plotting my best next step. Could you possibly have another conversation with the therapist just to sort of own what happened? Would that feel better at all? LIke I said not a lot of wisdom here but definitely a ton of sympathy! I know we can’t decide your worth but I will say for sure we know you are not worthless. Your posts on here among other things I’m sure you do in your non-SR life are super grounding and full of wisdom. You are human. You lost your cool because it’s hard to confront people in a detached way. Seems like a pretty understandable reaction, even if you later look back and wish it wasn’t the course you took.

Buckley3

Hey, this is a fantastic post. Thanks for bringing it up.

I have a bit of experience coaching execs and am super passionate about leadership, etc.. I've published a piece or two on the topic and intend to do more. I certainly am relating a lot of what I'm learning in my own personal journey of sobriety to things I experience in the world of leadership and organizational behavior, etc.

A few thoughts that jumped out in response to the conversation here:

Empathy. It's a personality trait that lends itself to the requirements of effective leadership. But it comes at a cost - which I think is what you originally were describing. Making tough - even unpopular - and sometimes flat out wrong decisions is one thing. Being able to feel how others respond to the consequences of those is another. It would be easier if you weren't as empathetic for sure. But then, you likely wouldn't possess the same amount of genuineness that people respond to that make you an effective leader in the first place.

Welcome to leadership eh? It's a hard thing. Lonely at times. If it isn't - at least sometimes - we aren't leading effectively. And yea, effective leadership means making mistakes too.

Self awareness gets mingled in as well. And then bingo - there's that voice that absolutely shreds us. Sometimes it uses language. Sometimes it's just a feeling - all lymbic system, all emotion.

Self compassion is the only real answer IMHO to calming the voice and sending it away. For me, I'm learning to accept quicker that my read on things is valid. And then giving myself a break. If I'm really ate up over a situation then heck yes, I'm going to check out for a couple hours, go get a coffee or do something else to provide a bit of comfort. Leading is HARD work. It's emotionally exhausting. We deserve it. Resharpen the saw. Recharge the batteries. Not easy in our "busy bee" culture that constantly downplays the softer side of management vs. the 'produce produce produce' demands. That's all b.s. This is about value. There are things that are more important than immediate results.

I think it's about breaking the cycle of ruminating on the situation over and over and over again. Instead, it's recognize - yes, that really happened the way I think it did - and then do something, even if that something is purely self-compassion and self-comforting. It's always situational. If a conversation will help go have it. If what's done is done then it's probably more self compassion.

As far as agreeableness and confrontation. A quick couple thoughts on that too - agreeableness is not really a great trait for effective leadership just because the nature of leadership is hard decisions, etc. I'm sure you already know that. But I've come to think of it this way, hope it helps:

Part of the problem is the way we think about leadership conceptually. It's too abstract. And I think a lot of people tend to think leadership or leadership style is or has to be one way or another. Like, my style is my style. And that's just not true. Leadership is a specific set of behaviors we use to prepare for, implement, and cope with change. If stuff never changed, we wouldn't need leadership, we'd just need more managers and bean counters.

So, effective leadership style is situational. It's a sliding scale between being directive (and sometimes requiring hard and fast disagreement or confrontation) and being more facilitative (usually requiring 'softer' forms of disagreement or confrontation.)

What determines which style of effectiveness is appropriate tends to break down on these lines:

Competency, Skill, Resources, Time. If you are working with a highly skilled, highly competent team with unlimited resources and unlimited time you are best off being facilitative in your style. But if you are working with a low competency, low skilled team with no resources and no time you need to be directive.

Often simply explaining to someone WHY you are being directive or disagreeable can help them understand it's not personal, it's a matter of the circumstances and the available resources and time to discuss the matter. If explained correctly and the person or team refuses to hear it, well, that's their issue.

Hope that makes sense and hopefully there's a nugget or two that's helpful.

Feel free to PM if you want. I could discuss this subject for weeks on end.

Best to you-

B

Numblady

Wow Buckley. Excellent insights and advice. Can tell you know a ton about this. I may in fact PM you.

I should also have said I don’t really hate all confrontation but to Mindful Man’s post those ones that are more on a personal level can sometimes be the most difficult/devastating. Not that the work ones are easy—obviously since I’m here posting and getting such awesome advice to help me get through it.

Anyhow, Buckley, I really appreciate what you wrote about leadership. Especially the part about periodic loneliness and the exhaustion factor. And breaking the cycle. Kind of the same cycle of self-criticism and doubt that Dee talked about too.

I’m so grateful for all of you!

FreeOwl

Well.....

One shift that seemed to help immensely for me was to stop trying to make the pain go away faster.

Recognizing and accepting that life includes pain and frustration and sorrow and loss and grief.... becoming willing to be with those feelings.... allowing them to be and to be acknowledged - was a shift that helped me move away from struggle and into a deeper life.

PalmerSage

Wow, you've gotten some amazing responses here (Buckley, I could also discuss this topic endlessly). Maybe this has already been mentioned, but related to empathy and how to respond to the person who was passed over, I think a frank discussion about your own career and the bureaucratic system within which you are both working may be helpful. It's no secret that the "best" candidate is often not chosen, or it becomes more of a "goodness of fit" decision than anything else. Not that you want to shift responsibility or falsely claim that your hands are tied, but you're working in a bureau-political system with factors that not even a "big picture thinker" can always see. You're in your role because you do see those factors, and she will be better off if she understands some of those constraints, etc. for the future.

Numblady

FreeOwl, I think that is it to a tee. This particular ... what I’m calling a discomfort to distinguish it from a real life problem like a terminal illness or loss of a home in a disaster, etc. ... is about my professional life but it could just as well be something in my personal life. And I’m sure it won’t be too long before I get worked up in that department again. How do we sit with the discomfort and just wait until we move past it or it passes us? I like what you say about not trying to make them go away faster. Now just need to keep working on how to do that.

Palmer, as always thanks for your sage counsel. I definitely like the idea of a frank discussion. I’ll give her the best information I can so she in turn can continue to make her best decision(s).

Again I thank you all. As many times as I’ve read that sometimes you just have to feel life’s hurts or distractions sometimes I forget. I also really like Dee’s and others’ idea of just not going too far or too often down the rabbit hole of beating ourselves up and effectively increasing the discomfort unnecessarily.

have a wonderful night, one and all! (Well it may not be night where you are but you get the idea )

MantaLady

Hi Numblady, I have been using the ABC tool (if you put ABC recovery in google a link will come up for ABC SMART Recovery) and have found them very helpful to process negative self-talk and disputing these beliefs. I am fresh out of rehab so others might laugh at this, but for me it is working wonders. I also work in the Corporate world, high stress and lots of responsibility so do understand the environment your in on a daily basis! Best of luck. xx

Numblady

Thank you MantaLady! Going to check it out now. I won’t laugh for sure. I’m willing to try anything that will help me improve as a person.