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As a father, thinking about Bourdain...

Old 06-08-2018, 03:30 PM
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Selfishness isn't self contained. Alcoholism is likely the ultimate form of that.
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Old 06-08-2018, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna View Post
LG, there are many things I 'should have done' in my life, which I didn't do.

I imagine many of us here have not made the right decisions in some instances.
In my original post that started this thread I too admitted I am ashamed of ways I've acted in my life and decisions I've made. So we can agree here.

Originally Posted by Anna View Post
will not use the word 'should' speaking about Anthony Bourdain, nor will I judge him. I believe, very deeply, that he felt his family/friends would be better off without him
But here we disagree. I believe, very deeply, that life was too painful for him and that killing himself would relieve the pain HE felt. He was not an adolescent without experience and intellect to think "the world is better off without me", and actually believe that. It doesn't take a person of his intellect, self-awareness or life experience to know better than that. As he had said before, he'd thought of suicide and that, in fact, it was his daughter that kept him from "offing" himself. So, of course, he knew, as any man of 61 would, objectively and subjectively, intellectually and spiritually, that no matter the personal pain he was suffering, there is simply NO WAY his daughter would be better off (again to say nothing of his friends and family) with him hanging himself. He chose to relieve the pain of his suffering over the certain probability of the unbelievable pain he would cause his daughter, for all of her life.

This choice is relevant to my understanding of the choices we make as addicts to quit or to keep going. Especially us addicts who are parents.
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Old 06-08-2018, 04:04 PM
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I had the same feeling about spade, just how in hell does a mom leave her 13 year old girl. How.

I don't know. I liken it to moderate drinkers and their bewilderment about my pain, anguish, despair and hopelessness in the face of a single glass of alcohol. And why they don't understand why life is hard for me nearly 9 months later. why I'm not "fixed."

Same deal. I am not suicidal. Some are. My daughter was, off and on in the past...struggling with aspergers and a genius IQ and no idea how to fit into the world. I didn't question it, just got her a psychiatrist. It helped. I still don't understand suicide because I am not suicidal. I think it is as baffling as alcoholism.
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Old 06-08-2018, 04:06 PM
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I remember when I was facing a DWI and in the lawyers office. I remember him telling me the possible consequences of this. I remember my world becoming incredibly small. I remember standing at his window, several floors up, seriously considering jumping. I don't think I was being selfish. The rest of the world just didn't exist anymore. It's like it never was. It wasn't that I no longer cared about my family. I was just focused on my despair and lonliness at the time. They just didn't exist at the time. They were just not a part of the small world I was in at the time. But something woke me up and I realized my mother and sister were there and I stepped away from the window. It just seemed like jumping out of that window seemed like such a peaceful thing to do. John
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Old 06-08-2018, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by lessgravity View Post
In my original post that started this thread I too admitted I am ashamed of ways I've acted in my life and decisions I've made. So we can agree here.



But here we disagree. I believe, very deeply, that life was too painful for him and that killing himself would relieve the pain HE felt. He was not an adolescent without experience and intellect to think "the world is better off without me", and actually believe that. It doesn't take a person of his intellect, self-awareness or life experience to know better than that. As he had said before, he'd thought of suicide and that, in fact, it was his daughter that kept him from "offing" himself. So, of course, he knew, as any man of 61 would, objectively and subjectively, intellectually and spiritually, that no matter the personal pain he was suffering, there is simply NO WAY his daughter would be better off (again to say nothing of his friends and family) with him hanging himself. He chose to relieve the pain of his suffering over the certain probability of the unbelievable pain he would cause his daughter, for all of her life.

This choice is relevant to my understanding of the choices we make as addicts to quit or to keep going. Especially us addicts who are parents.
This is very naive.....
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Old 06-08-2018, 04:32 PM
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[QUOTE=doggonecarl;6920870]I probably should have not painted with such a broad brush, but rather, spoken from an "I" perspective instead.

My depression, addiction, despair was aggressively self-consuming.

Hey dogg

I'm so glad you reframed your post. I think it's a great example that when we share from OUR experience, using 'I', there is less room for offense and misunderstanding. I think this is true for any post, in any thread. Thanks!
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Old 06-08-2018, 04:51 PM
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Suicidal depression can be so bad that it actually hurts. Its very hard to explain. Its very exhausting to deal with and can hit hard and very quickly. You can't think of anything else than wanting it to stop. You are not thinking clearly.
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Old 06-08-2018, 04:58 PM
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We can do all we want to analyze someone that we did not even know. Being a practicing Roman Catholic suicide is not an option for me but I don't like some of the above posts where people are holier than thou and throwing stones. And not having an idea of possible depression, addiction or other mental issues.
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Old 06-08-2018, 04:59 PM
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Rest eternal grant him, O Lord, and may light perpetual shine upon him.


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Old 06-08-2018, 05:07 PM
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Yes indeed! A good person will go somewhere great. Physics do not oblivatw our spark for life.
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Old 06-08-2018, 05:09 PM
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Coincidentally, I just saw an interview with Kevin Hines. He survived a suicide attempt - he jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge.

He said in the seconds after he jumped he deeply regretted it - but what he felt just before jumping was what he called 'Lethal emotional pain'. A pain so great it leads you to believe you're worthless & a burden to all who care about you. Of course it's not true - but that's what was going through his mind when he decided to end his life.

I used to think 'how selfish' too - especially when children are involved. Apparently nothing else crosses your mind but stopping the endless internal battle you face every day.
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Old 06-08-2018, 05:13 PM
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According to European sources drugs got him:
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Old 06-08-2018, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Porcetta View Post
This is very naive.....
Do you mean in your opinion, or as a matter of law?

Don't want to get into my, very, very un-naive, experiences with suicide, and ether way, that's my takeaway.

And I loved his books and his perspective and his shows. In retrospect, the intense glorification of alcohol he professed couldn't have been doing him any favors.

I suppose if the loss fortifies my, and maybe some else's, sobriety that's a gain.
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Old 06-08-2018, 05:22 PM
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I'm not sure what you mean by 'drugs got him'.

Please let's not continue to point the figure at Anthony Bourdain. Let's allow him to rest in peace.
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Old 06-08-2018, 05:29 PM
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I'm not a parent, but I understand why you might feel that way Less. It’s great that you found the strength and support you need to keep going in your family. I can only wish anyone struggling your courage and determination. It’s just for me suicide is not as simple as ‘being selfish’… Mental health issues are serious, and I could never damn anyone for suffering.

I struggle a lot with depression, self-injury and suicidal ideation, I attempted suicide a few times and I don’t know man, it’s hard to explain… I think a lot about my family and the impact my death would have on them - the excruciating pain it would cause them. But in these moments, it’s like I’m already gone.

I came across this interesting thought while watching a silly show I love called Sherlock. 😉 This quote helps me when I’m in a very dark place;

“Taking you own life. Interesting expression — taking it from who? Once it’s over, it’s not you who’ll miss it. Your own death is something that happens to everybody else. Your life is not your own. Keep your hands off it.”

So far, it's one of the strongest reasons I could find to stay alive. I try to keep living so I can help and support others, even if sometimes it feels like I can't bear taking care of myself. I'm worried that one day I might be too sick and messed up to think about other people, but hopefully there will be a kind soul around me to help instead of calling me selfish...

Love to all. Thanks for reading!
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Old 06-08-2018, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Snufkin View Post
I'm not a parent, but I understand why you might feel that way Less. It’s great that you found the strength and support you need to keep going in your family. I can only wish anyone struggling your courage and determination. It’s just for me suicide is not as simple as ‘being selfish’… Mental health issues are serious, and I could never damn anyone for suffering.

I struggle a lot with depression, self-injury and suicidal ideation, I attempted suicide a few times and I don’t know man, it’s hard to explain… I think a lot about my family and the impact my death would have on them - the excruciating pain it would cause them. But in these moments, it’s like I’m already gone.

I came across this interesting thought while watching a silly show I love called Sherlock. 😉 This quote helps me when I’m in a very dark place;

“Taking you own life. Interesting expression — taking it from who? Once it’s over, it’s not you who’ll miss it. Your own death is something that happens to everybody else. Your life is not your own. Keep your hands off it.”

So far, it's one of the strongest reasons I could find to stay alive. I try to keep living so I can help and support others, even if sometimes it feels like I can't bear taking care of myself. I'm worried that one day I might be too sick and messed up to think about other people, but hopefully there will be a kind soul around me to help instead of calling me selfish...

Love to all. Thanks for reading!
Beautiful post, thank you for sharing very personal and difficult truths. And btw my son loves Sherlock that quote is a keeper!
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Old 06-08-2018, 10:27 PM
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Tony, you were a light in the world. Goodbye.
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Old 06-09-2018, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by doggonecarl View Post
True. But depression, despair, suicide--like addiction--is a very selfish affliction.
Crass because:

For someone to commit suicide their ability to think rationally, logically, to be able to put themselves into context and say this act is selfish, well they don't have that level of thought process. It only goes to demonstrate when I read that type of comment how mental health needs to be further understood by the mainstream population and how, for far to long, it has been hidden in the background. God forbid anyone mention they couldnt cope or felt that the only answer was to take their own life. That the world would be a better place without them. That suicide was the ONLY answer. That's incredibly sad and my heart goes out to them and their families.

Suicide rates are rising worldwide, with some one million people dying annually from suicide. The World Health Organization estimates a global suicide rate of one death every 40 seconds, which by 2020 they predict will increase to one every 20 seconds.

We are living in a world where more and more people cannot cope. Let's show some compassion.
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Old 06-09-2018, 01:34 AM
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I think we've given this thread a good run - but we're recycling arguments now.

Seeing as a fair number of people end up here in this forum in self disgust and complete despair: and seeing as many of them may be thinking in various degrees of seriousness about doing themselves harm or 'ending it', I think we'll leave it there.

Right or wrong, there are things in this thread I would not like to have read in that instance.

2. Outside Agendas: No posts of an overtly political or religious nature OR posts promoting advocacy of particular personal, medical, legal, religious, political, or non-profit causes. The forums are intended for offering mutual personal support related to recovery from addiction or recovery for family and friends. This is our primary purpose. Debating controversial subjects should be taken elsewhere. Limited references are allowed, but the forums should not be used to convert others. Do not post content or links or materials to and from sites that flame someone's person, religious beliefs, race, national background, sexual orientation, or recovery program/method. It is inappropriate to promote the use of alcohol or drugs on our addiction recovery forums.
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