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on the other end of the phone...

Old 05-18-2017, 03:18 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Thanks Phoenix. I am.

Been talking with my sponsor, my wife, another mutual friend of his....

Probably going to go see my counselor as well.... I can feel the weight of this on my chest.
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Old 05-18-2017, 03:59 AM
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I am so sorry and will keep praying for your friend.
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Old 05-18-2017, 04:10 AM
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This is so sad, FreeOwl. Sadly it is all too common. I've never been homeless, but I have gotten to the point of chugging a bottle to keep DTs at bay. I'd always be astonished​ when it was all gone... Like how did this happen?! Panic!

The system really fails people with respect to mental health and addiction issues. Many policymakers feel that it is not worth an investment as addiction is a "choice" and will eventually be a waste of funds. So backwards!! ER visits are incredibly expensive, etc. I'm sure your friend feels hopeless. I saw people trapped in similar situations when I was at rehab. One older man who was also homeless left and came back 3 times because he was literally put on the street... Then the cycle of booze again.

I think you did the right thing. Hopefully they will find a placement for him in a detox/rehab facility. He can't possibly want to continue this way. Cunning, baffling, and powerful... I hope it works out!
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Old 05-18-2017, 04:23 AM
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yep.... the trouble is that when he does land in an ER, they are motivated to put him back out asap.

If he does happen to get referred into a psych or detox, then detox is also overwhelmed and puts him back out within 24-36 hours. In the instances he gets sent to a Psych - their policy is not to conduct their evaluation until he's detoxed. By the time he's detoxed, he's back to his facilities enough to convince them he's not in need of mental health care - just has addiction problems.... so they put him back out with an appointment to go see someone about an outpatient. Which of course he never does.

He is a classic case of falling through the cracks. The system treats him as a hot potato and none of the agencies policies will allow him to be taken into the situation he really needs.

So.... he's going to die.
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Old 05-18-2017, 04:26 AM
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And they will only hold him in psych if he's a threat to himself or others, and I think they have to witness it (could be wrong about that). I.mean honestly, getting yourself to that level of drunk should be considered a suicide attempt!!!
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Old 05-18-2017, 05:16 AM
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he is alive. another friend's dad is hauling him over to a recovery center to try and demand they take him.

that's not how the system 'works' - but when the system isn't working, sometimes you have to try and force it. I'm glad he's able to take the time and initiative to do that. Not sure it'll actually get him anywhere, but at least it may lead to keeping him alive another day.
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Old 05-18-2017, 06:17 AM
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incredibly, they managed to get him a bed!!!

he will still need to choose to make this work, but at least they managed to get him in somewhere.

goes to show you - never take "no" for an answer..... when the process isn't progressing, sometimes you have to break it.
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:09 AM
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...and so there he sits. Voluntarily in a facility. For now.

Trouble is, he's been there time and again. Will he stay? Will he get a few days down the road and walk out?

Should we - his caring friends - initiate a petition for involuntary hospitalization based on his risk of harm to self and others and his history of mental health issues? Will that just be time and emotion and effort invested only to have him beat the system as he has done so many times in the past? Is it even WORTH trying to force the hand of a guy who won't make the choice to get well? Better to let him retain freedom of choice - and suffer his consequences until they finally lead him to his bottom.... even if that bottom is death?

It's so goddamn hard.

The community mental health folks advise; "step away. let him make his choices". I suppose they're right.

Be there as a reminder that people care, but tell him clearly "You need to choose, man. Life or death. Get well or keep going. It's up to you."
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:13 AM
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Unimaginably hard to step back.

My thoughts and prayers are with you both, FreeOwl.

You are a good man.
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:18 AM
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on the one hand..... no man can force another man to choose....

on the other hand..... how do I live with his death if I didn't try?

on the other other hand - he's a man who knows how to work the system... a petition (according to the prosecutor) is tricky business and very difficult. he has gotten himself out of many a psych ward before, convincing them he's "Just an addict / alcoholic" and since there's no law enabling a state to compel a person to treatment - his constitutional right to drink himself to death prevails.

*UGH*
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:20 AM
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UGH, indeed.
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:23 AM
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"Cunning, baffling, powerful". It's a liquid toxin which floods the brain with chemicals that impact upon the brains healthy pleasure/reward system, such that it becomes habitual and an addiction arises,: accompanied by resultant cravings, urges, compulsions (old-style obsessions) are borne, as a new, rogue survival drive.

I'm sorry for your friend's plight, he desperately needs a professional detox, followed by a place to stay. Has your friend attended AA?

Edited to add - I'm relieved he's safe and in a centre.
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by FreeOwl View Post
on the one hand..... no man can force another man to choose....

on the other hand..... how do I live with his death if I didn't try?
^^^^^that pretty much sums it up doesn't it? You only have control of one of those items. You try , and your conscience is clean.

FreeOwl, is there ANYONE who can talk some sense into this guy? You've got a past, can you share with him that it just ain't worth it and he's going to die? If not die, he's gonna stroke out and be in a wheelchair at the age of 30. Its a shame.
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatsy View Post
"Cunning, baffling, powerful". It's a liquid toxin which floods the brain with chemicals that impact upon the brains healthy pleasure/reward system, such that it becomes habitual and an addiction arises,: accompanied by resultant cravings, urges, compulsions (old-style obsessions) are borne, as a new, rogue survival drive.

I'm sorry for your friend's plight, he desperately needs a professional detox, followed by a place to stay. Has your friend attended AA?

Edited to add - I'm relieved he's safe and in a centre.
he's been to AA, NA, SMART recovery and others.... he actually blames his last relapse on the 9th step.

his repeated perspective, though, seems to be that he's viewing recovery methods as some kind of cure that's supposed to magically make him better...... not as an opportunity for him to make a CHOICE and do the WORK.
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:56 AM
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Hi FreeOwl, I'm so sorry that you're suffering, that's the price to be paid for caring. Has you friend tried alternative methods?

I was probably 12 months off imploding physically, I was part way down the abyss. I left AA and via Sober Recovery, discovered a method and mindset that gave me back my life. It wasn't a miracle, but once I'd learnt the method and made a decision to never drink again, it felt like a spiritual experience. I felt freedom. Freedom to rebuild my life.

I asked about AA because that's the first port of call, but if that doesn't work, there are other ways. Hugs to you and your friend, I'm glad he's safe at the moment.
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Old 05-18-2017, 12:06 PM
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he's tried it all.

what he hasn't tried is changing HIM.

Turns out, no method in the world works if you're not willing and ready to be reworked.
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Old 05-18-2017, 12:30 PM
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FreeOwl, I don't know what more to suggest. I'm so sorry, he's very fortunate to have you as a friend. You can only offer him guidance; that decision to stop must come from within him. Is there anything he hasn't tried? Something might click for him.
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Old 05-18-2017, 12:41 PM
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He's safely in a qualified, good facility.

For now he's out of immediate danger and they know how to help him.

The choice is back in his court.

I left him a clear and firm message about getting honest with himself, getting honest with the doctors and social workers, and getting down to the work of sobriety.

Told him nobody's going to save him, it has to be his choice and his action.

I'll give him a ride to meetings. I'll talk him off a ledge. But I can't make him recover.


I'm just glad he made it back from the edge one more time and I'll pray it clicks this time.
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Old 05-18-2017, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by FreeOwl View Post
He's safely in a qualified, good facility.

For now he's out of immediate danger and they know how to help him.

The choice is back in his court.

I left him a clear and firm message about getting honest with himself, getting honest with the doctors and social workers, and getting down to the work of sobriety.

Told him nobody's going to save him, it has to be his choice and his action.

I'll give him a ride to meetings. I'll talk him off a ledge. But I can't make him recover.


I'm just glad he made it back from the edge one more time and I'll pray it clicks this time.
Amen
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Old 05-18-2017, 12:56 PM
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"on the other hand..... how do I live with his death if I didn't try?"
reading your past threads and posts on this, it reads like you already have.

"he's tried it all.
what he hasn't tried is changing HIM."

in another reply, you mention he has been in rehab and/or detox time and again,no?

i can understand wanting to find something to blame, but the "system" isnt the problem here. its not the "systems" fault he is where he is.
it is alcoholism thats to blame If you want to blame something, which the BB says we have to drop the word blame
have YOU worked the steps on this?
i read youve been talking, what have you been DOING? it reads like youre trying to run the show here- youre trying to be someone elses HP
you didnt cause
you cant control it
you cant cure it.

might want to visit the friends and family forum and read some of the stickies. maybe even start a thread over there and get some advise from those folks.
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