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Your thoughts on Denial In the BB, it is written that some are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. Doing some reading, I found a statement that equated that level of denial with the person's IQ. Thoughts? |
I don't think denial has anything to do with IQ. Does it matter? |
Not to me, it doesn't but I read that and thought it what a ludicrous statement - ust thought I'd ask other's opinions. I mean..... constitutionally incapable.... what does that mean to you Frick? |
Well a person's 'constitution' is one's disposition, attitude and personality. I believe that when a person is constitutionally incapable of being honest it means that their denial runs so deep they cannot accept any other truth. They have lied to themselves and to others for so long that they believe their own crap. They are completely unwilling to listen to others and take direction. They know their lives are a mess but aren't truly honest open and willing to a new way of life. My experience is that these people blame everyone/everything else for their problems and tend to think they are completely unique (ie, "I've had it harder than you" "You don't understand me" "this will be harder for me than most" etc etc). |
Yes... I agree with that. Taking it a bit deeper... do you think a sociopath or psychopath... do they have the same wherewithal that we do to create a place of honesty within themselves? just a little light conversation for a Monday morning... -:) |
OK maybe I said that wrong; maybe I shouldn't say "we". I can't say who is or isn't socio/psychopath. I'm just wondering about the "ability" to get honest and the differences in the brain... does that makes sense? |
Haven't a clue. Maybe Endgame can answer that one! I think by virtue of being a socio/psychopath a person is extremely antisocial and has a pretty skewed view of their own ego and power. But who knows. I guess it would depend on the severity of their condition. Haha. Light conversation indeed. |
It makes sense to me to have an AA member's POV on this :) I want to give some props out to Sugah who wrote about this a long time ago:
Originally Posted by Sugah
(Post 1084996)
con-sti-tu-tion-al-ly in respect to physical makeup: He is constitutionally fitted for heavy labor. in respect to mental or emotional makeup: constitutionally unable to speak before an audience. with respect to a constitution: constitutionally invalid law. I think it can mean a lot of things. If ego is such that a simple inability to be willing to give the steps a try prevent someone from getting started, I think that can qualify as "constitutionally incapable of being honest." Perhaps some belief systems from childhood or lifetime conditioning have effectively closed the door to an open mindedness necessary to make a start of the AA program of recovery. I know there will be those who will come back and say, "You're just saying the AA program is the only method for personal honesty!" I'm not saying that. I'm saying that open mindedness, the willingness to accept that there may be another truth other than the one I've held fast to, that's kept me drinking, is necessary. It's the simple admission to myself that "I may not be right. I should listen to these folks, read this book, and decide for myself -- after I give it a chance." Discarding personal bias isn't easy. I struggled for years before I came in, became part of and stayed sober. Just my two cents. Great thread, btw! Peace & Love, Sugah I've met people who would not be open minded...but very few people who could not. D |
Thanks Frick for your thoughts and Dee for the info. and thanks to Sugah for the original post. I have to get ready for work now but I would like to delve into this a bit more; I welcome all thoughts and experiences any of you may have... Thank you all for being here! |
From what I understand denial is a psychological defense mechanism. There are several others such as rationalization, displacement, projection, reaction formation and sublimation. If I recall correctly, everyone uses them from time to time but we tend to gravitate towards "pet defenses" for lack of a better term. One person might use a lot of rationalization, another person might use more projection. I suspect, given the nature of alcoholism, many of us have engaged in a fair amount of denial over the years! |
I was constitutionally incapable of honesty until I wasn't. My sponsor told me that I was working the steps as "honestly as I knew how at the time". Denial peeled away in thin layers. I still have plenty of it. I am passing from "not knowing what I don't know" to "knowing what I don't know" about what honesty is. I know very little and have a lot to learn. I am learning that "honesty" is a nuanced thing. I navigate it with the help of a Higher Power and sponsor. In the beginning, my sponsor had me write down all the lies I told that day. It got me looking inside at myself and how EVERYTHING I did/said/thought was essentially made-up to fit a reality I had created. It was the first step to becoming constitutionally CAPABLE of honesty. Perspective (seeing things as they REALLY are) helps me in the honesty department. It allows me to "change my lenses", so to speak. I don't see the world as it is, I see as I am. A work in progress.... |
Heard Denial explained by , using the word denial as D on't E ven N otice I A m L ying = D E N I A L. Denial is not a river in Africa either (grin ) . Personally I think denial is like , make believe, lying about everything and rationalizing and justifying without being at times ''really aware of it'' it can become a way of life , a certain way of believing and thinking like the ''great I am '' ego ran wild . Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 |
I was well aware that I was an alcoholic for over 10 years before I bothered to do anything about it. I simply accepted it as part of me. Accepting being an alcoholic did nothing to encourage me to stop. It took a bad blood test to wake me up. |
I agree with Tekink. I also knew and accepted I was an alcoholic for many years. I was fine with it. Thought I handled it well and anyway that was me and I can live my life as I choose. It was only when it started affecting my health that I stopped. |
I think youre referring to this part of the BB? usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a way of life which demands rigorous honesty. what that means is a persons IQ is so low they cant understand or comprehend what honesty is- they are born that way. they are constitutionally incapable because they cant learn.they cant read or write or understand. |
tomsteve I don't think that is correct. The phrase "constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves" has nothing to do with IQ. I believe the phrase has to do with self appraisal. I believe that it points to an extreme inability to see a problem realistically (at least where alcohol is concerned). Bill was not a mental health professional but I think he was pointing to severe denial. Denial, in the sense of the word in the way it is used to describe a psychological defense mechanism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial BTW, the psychological defense mechanisms are used by everyone. We just have a hard time recognizing that we are using them in the moment. They are easier to see when we look back at ourselves in the past or look at other people (because there is less need to 'defend' ourselves in these cases). |
we'll agree to disagree, awuh. "I believe that it points to an extreme inability to see a problem realistically (at least where alcohol is concerned)." they are not at fault. they seemed to have been born that way. because a person was born with such a low IQ they cant have the ability to see a problem realistically.. which that part of the bb wasn't something bill just thought up. it was information from doc silkworth, |
I believe from what I have heard in meetings people in denial are fighting there inability to quit drinking, am I or am I not an alcoholic. I was never in denial I accepted I was a alcoholic at 21 and embraced the lifestyle as long as I could. |
if i'm constitutionally incapable of something, i'm "made that way". nothing to do with intelligence. some rather clever people seem unable to be honest. with themselves or others. some in the news every day:) and i believe one of my brothers is, too. very bright, and incapable, i believe, of realistic self-appraisal. as i was, also, while drinking. being incapable, though, isn't equivalent to being in denial. |
tomsteve, the full names of all the people who participated in AA before the book was published can be found. and I have looked for information on many (but not all) of these individuals. I have never come across a description of someone with a low IQ in this group of about 100 names. On the contrary. Many of the early members were professionals and successful business people. If you have any evidence for the assertion that "constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves" refers to a low IQ I would like to see it. I have never seen anything to support this assertion. fini, the word 'constitutionally' does seem to almost put a biological spin on "incapable of being honest". The qualifier "seem to be" is the crux of it though. Bill is essentially saying he does not understand precisely where this inability to be honest with self comes from. Little wonder. He did not have the benefit of any training in mental health aside from his own readings. My understanding is that he wished to convey to the reader what a profound obstacle this self deception can be. |
Perhaps some forms of denial are related to our ego; our concept of who and what we are. When reality doesn't line up with who we THINK we are, we are likely to be in denial. (Who, me? Naw...not me...) |
Originally Posted by awuh1
(Post 6169072)
tomsteve, the full names of all the people who participated in AA before the book was published can be found. and I have looked for information on many (but not all) of these individuals. I have never come across a description of someone with a low IQ in this group of about 100 names. On the contrary. Many of the early members were professionals and successful business people. If you have any evidence for the assertion that "constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves" refers to a low IQ I would like to see it. I have never seen anything to support this assertion. . They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. think about it. some of it is just common sense. |
Just an added note. I have a former colleague who, I don't know if he is an alcoholic or not, I'm not a doctor, certainly abuses substances on a regular basis that cause all sorts of detriments to his life. Of course, he never calls himself an alcoholic, but he also refuses, on principle to call ANYONE else one either, no matter how obvious it is. In fact, some of the people he refers to as "binge drinkers" even refer to themselves as active alcoholics. But he just can't bring himself to say the word. That is a very interesting form of denial from my observation. |
The nuances of denial... I think this is a very interesting conversation. I like learning about human nature and how the brain plays into that and also because I am trying to figure out me, of course. Creating healthier interactions with others is a priority for me and sometimes :headbange ......HA! my thinking gets in the way. So... The sharing of thoughts, ideas and references in this thread are mighty helpful, thank you all. I am running late but I would like to address a few responses more directly. I have a meeting tonight; maybe when I get home, I can get back to this. Have a great day, afternoon, evening, night everyone! |
I see denial as being on a spectrum ... not necessarily a negative response, and on the other end, rendering us incapable of growth. Denial and coming out of it is about what we choose to pay attention to. What we allow ourselves to see, and when, and to what degree. It can be self-preserving. The 'inability to be honest' with oneself... I always took this to be about those who were in full-on psychotic breaks with reality. And more about what constitutes reality than an inward, subjective honesty. And even then, the schizophrenic is being honest with himself in the face of what is real to him. Are there irredeemable people? Psychopaths, maybe? Are these people being dishonest? Or are they just potentially very dangerous to the rest of us? Is Trump incapable of it? Pushed to his breaking point, I bet he'd get honest, if only temporarily. |
im glad to be dumber than average i dont have a need to question everything im more of a direction follower :tyou |
finis quote: "being incapable though is not equivalent to being in denial"* So...If we cannot see...if we "don't know"... (nothing to do with intelligence) is that an aspect of incapability? frick, defined by a Dictionary.com, Disposition - person's inherent qualities of mind and character. Also, Inherent - existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute. I guess here, I am wondering how it can be a characteristic attribute (something that can be changed) and also be permanent???
Originally Posted by teatreeoil007
(Post 6169129)
Perhaps some forms of denial are related to our ego; our concept of who and what we are. When reality doesn't line up with who we THINK we are, we are likely to be in denial. (Who, me? Naw...not me...) mfranch,* said; "I was constitutionally incapable of honesty until I wasn't." I like this. Makes sense to me at this moment. Yes, tomsteve, I was referring to the BB. I too, would like to see where you found that IQ is associated with incapability, thank you. These are just quick thoughts with regard to your responses. I am open and willing to see this from every viewpoint. Thank you all for being here and contributing to this conversation. It is really very helpful to me! |
You might also think that ''denial '' like ''reality ''in lots of alcoholics and addicts whilst performing as ''an illusion ''caused by the lack of alcohol or drugs . AKA D ont E ven N otice I A m L ying incapable of being honest, not even aware as its become a way of life and unconscious of the fact , this is where EGO Deflation at depth is essential . Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 |
IQ has nothing to do with it. Besides, if you can access this site and string some coherent words together then you are smart enough to do what it takes. Maybe you are over thinking this. You don't have to understand how the 12 steps work for them to be able to work for you. You just have t do what they tell you. Go to meetings, get a sponsor and attend more meetings. That's what worked for me and I have managed to stay sober for 25 years - one day at a time. My story is here: http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ars-today.html |
Idk, if we're saying that someone's intelligence-- or lack of -- has something to do with "being in denial," it sounds like something people might've believed in medieval days! Seriously. I think it takes self-awareness to admit (to yourself) your issues with alcohol. But I don't believe that by keeping that awareness to yourself means you're "in denial." But being aware of it and doing something about it are two separate things. |
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