Atheism and a "higher power"
Maybe it is not so much AA as a larger group but moreso the individual undertones of the person/s holding particular meetings and their attendees that make some meetings more religiously inclined than others?
I'm personally more stuck on the whole succumbing and handing my will over to a higher power after reading up and going to my first meeting today. What if that higher power has a bad day and changes its mind and makes me drink again... Then I am powerless lol.
I'm personally more stuck on the whole succumbing and handing my will over to a higher power after reading up and going to my first meeting today. What if that higher power has a bad day and changes its mind and makes me drink again... Then I am powerless lol.
My higher power is the earth itself, without its components, we could not survive. When I was involved in NA I replaced "god" with "mother nature".
It got me through.
I do remember thinking exactly what you described, but then it became unimportant. The important thing was not using.
My "church" is going hiking. That's where I connect with my highest power.
It got me through.
I do remember thinking exactly what you described, but then it became unimportant. The important thing was not using.
My "church" is going hiking. That's where I connect with my highest power.
And if 'nature' is a recommended higher power, then how powerful really is it when you consider that as humans, a conglomeration of many individuals of their own free will, we are destroying it?
And 'science' as a higher power... science can't even come close to properly explaining how our brain works or else we would already have a magic pill or procedure to cure addiction, in which case we don't need AA.
And 'consciousness' as a higher power... By definition consciousness is everything within our own individual awareness, so how can that be a higher power if it is unique only to an individual and shaped by rationale, decision and action?
That leaves a lot of questions.
And 'science' as a higher power... science can't even come close to properly explaining how our brain works or else we would already have a magic pill or procedure to cure addiction, in which case we don't need AA.
And 'consciousness' as a higher power... By definition consciousness is everything within our own individual awareness, so how can that be a higher power if it is unique only to an individual and shaped by rationale, decision and action?
That leaves a lot of questions.
My higher power is the earth itself, without its components, we could not survive. When I was involved in NA I replaced "god" with "mother nature".
It got me through.
I do remember thinking exactly what you described, but then it became unimportant. The important thing was not using.
My "church" is going hiking. That's where I connect with my highest power.
It got me through.
I do remember thinking exactly what you described, but then it became unimportant. The important thing was not using.
My "church" is going hiking. That's where I connect with my highest power.
I'll up that and say it could be universe itself. Even from a physics standpoint the universe gave birth to both the earth and all of us and we all share some of the energy burst of it's creation. The universe is everywhere and knows everything if you take the sum of it's components.
Personally my higher power is myself, I'm the one who controls my reality for better or for worse. I'm trying to better that reality now and I'm committed to doing so. I'm never going to drink alcohol again, ever.
I'll up that and say it could be universe itself. Even from a physics standpoint the universe gave birth to both the earth and all of us and we all share some of the energy burst of it's creation. The universe is everywhere and knows everything if you take the sum of it's components.
Personally my higher power is myself, I'm the one who controls my reality for better or for worse. I'm trying to better that reality now and I'm committed to doing so. I'm never going to drink alcohol again, ever.
Personally my higher power is myself, I'm the one who controls my reality for better or for worse. I'm trying to better that reality now and I'm committed to doing so. I'm never going to drink alcohol again, ever.
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 59
Maybe it is not so much AA as a larger group but moreso the individual undertones of the person/s holding particular meetings and their attendees that make some meetings more religiously inclined than others?
I'm personally more stuck on the whole succumbing and handing my will over to a higher power after reading up and going to my first meeting today. What if that higher power has a bad day and changes its mind and makes me drink again... Then I am powerless lol.
I'm personally more stuck on the whole succumbing and handing my will over to a higher power after reading up and going to my first meeting today. What if that higher power has a bad day and changes its mind and makes me drink again... Then I am powerless lol.
Again, I'm being careful to not offend or provoke negative reactions from anyone here. That post, however silly it may have intended to be, perfectly captured what I think a lot of people struggle with at AA.
Haha. I think this is where a lot of people are going to have trouble with AA. If they aren't religiously-inclined and don't actually believe in a higher power, then the idea is useless. Because, yeah, it could "have a bad day and change its mind." I believe the will should just be your own will, and you shouldn't have to hand anything over to some abstract idea that you don't, in your heart, even acknowledge. As I said earlier, this COULD be setting yourself up for failure, because it seems to be one of the most fundamental tenets of AA. I'm not saying you should stop going to the AA meetings, especially if it's keeping you sober (in that case, definitely go, and go frequently), but if you continue to struggle with that, it may be worth it to try a secular approach. You'll already be struggling with the idea of telling your brain to not drink. You don't want to also be struggling with the idea of telling your brain there's an all powerful higher power (whether that's God, or as other people have said, nature, the universe, etc) to which you can hand your will. Again, though, if, after attending more meetings, the idea clicks, and it's working for you, I don't by any means want to dissuade you from going again. Just thought I'd point out that your line of argument is sound.
Again, I'm being careful to not offend or provoke negative reactions from anyone here. That post, however silly it may have intended to be, perfectly captured what I think a lot of people struggle with at AA.
Again, I'm being careful to not offend or provoke negative reactions from anyone here. That post, however silly it may have intended to be, perfectly captured what I think a lot of people struggle with at AA.
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 59
And if 'nature' is a recommended higher power, then how powerful really is it when you consider that as humans, a conglomeration of many individuals of their own free will, we are destroying it?
And 'science' as a higher power... science can't even come close to properly explaining how our brain works or else we would already have a magic pill or procedure to cure addiction, in which case we don't need AA.
And 'consciousness' as a higher power... By definition consciousness is everything within our own individual awareness, so how can that be a higher power if it is unique only to an individual and shaped by rationale, decision and action?
That leaves a lot of questions.
And 'science' as a higher power... science can't even come close to properly explaining how our brain works or else we would already have a magic pill or procedure to cure addiction, in which case we don't need AA.
And 'consciousness' as a higher power... By definition consciousness is everything within our own individual awareness, so how can that be a higher power if it is unique only to an individual and shaped by rationale, decision and action?
That leaves a lot of questions.
I really, really want to make sure that I'm not dissuading a single person from going to AA. And I want to make sure no one thinks I'm insulting their viewpoints. As I keep saying, if it's keeping you sober and/or giving you piece of mind, then don't listen to me. Keep doing exactly what you're doing. I'm just speaking for us outsiders who truly don't believe AA is for us. It's clearly for the majority of people. But this truly is a fascinating, and, I think, productive conversation.
just to play "Devil's advocate" telling me to be "open-minded" and "Willing" sounds exactly like telling me I have to be willing to accept something the logic in my mind tells me simply isn't so. I say this so you can understand what it feels like to someone like me in our thought processes.
There seems to be an endless debate about AA which I have never understood. It is so simple. If you disagree with AA then do go
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The Newcomers Forum is a safe and welcoming place for newcomers. Respect is essential. Debates over Recovery Methods are not allowed on the Newcomer's Forum. Posts that violate this rule will be removed without notice. (Support and experience only please.)
The Newcomers Forum is a safe and welcoming place for newcomers. Respect is essential. Debates over Recovery Methods are not allowed on the Newcomer's Forum. Posts that violate this rule will be removed without notice. (Support and experience only please.)
Time will tell if a particular approach has merit for a particular person. The longer a person is sober the more credibility they have earned. If all we are shooting for is abstinence then the future looks grim. If we are shooting for recovery then the conversation becomes much more complex and the subtleties more varied.
The longer I am sober the more I realize that the path to recovery is a never ending process of discovery and education. The more closed minded I am the less opportunity there is to learn
The longer I am sober the more I realize that the path to recovery is a never ending process of discovery and education. The more closed minded I am the less opportunity there is to learn
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: former texan
Posts: 216
I'm generally not, but today I will be the devil's advocate.
I have seen too many posts here from people who wish to get sober but feel they can't because sobriety in their minds seems to be a "God" thing.
I will be the first to tell you it's not. I am not disrespecting any one else's views. I am the the first believer in whatever it took to get you sober.
AA is one way. Just one.
There are many more.
If the God question gives you enough license to remove yourself from recovery, then perhaps you are not there. You do not have to believe in God. You do not have to believe in science, nature, or the universe.
Here is what you have to believe:
You have no control over your drinking.
Your drinking has caused harm to yourself or others.
You are seeking help because you cannot help yourself.
The answers you seek are everywhere. There are addictions counsellors, there are detox/rehab centers. There are a million places that could care less what your spiritual beliefs are. If this is your debate, then it just gives you license to drink. Rock bottom is rock bottom.
Get the help you need, and get the help that makes sense to you.
If it helps me saying it - don't sweat the God stuff.
I am sorry if I am coming off weary. The truth is that I bargained with myself over these things for way too long. In the end it didn't matter. I needed help. Actual help with actual people, doing actual work. Making better the being that is me, for as long as I enjoy my time on this earth.
We can debate this all day. Doesn't matter. Are you an alcoholic and do you need help to get yourself sober? If so, there is a place for you. Ask us where and we will send you the links you need. As long as we have excuses not to get help, we won't. AA is one thing. Just one. There are many others. AA not for you? No problem. God not for you? No problem. Addiction rehab takes many forms. Ask for what you need. The debate will get you where you are now.
I have seen too many posts here from people who wish to get sober but feel they can't because sobriety in their minds seems to be a "God" thing.
I will be the first to tell you it's not. I am not disrespecting any one else's views. I am the the first believer in whatever it took to get you sober.
AA is one way. Just one.
There are many more.
If the God question gives you enough license to remove yourself from recovery, then perhaps you are not there. You do not have to believe in God. You do not have to believe in science, nature, or the universe.
Here is what you have to believe:
You have no control over your drinking.
Your drinking has caused harm to yourself or others.
You are seeking help because you cannot help yourself.
The answers you seek are everywhere. There are addictions counsellors, there are detox/rehab centers. There are a million places that could care less what your spiritual beliefs are. If this is your debate, then it just gives you license to drink. Rock bottom is rock bottom.
Get the help you need, and get the help that makes sense to you.
If it helps me saying it - don't sweat the God stuff.
I am sorry if I am coming off weary. The truth is that I bargained with myself over these things for way too long. In the end it didn't matter. I needed help. Actual help with actual people, doing actual work. Making better the being that is me, for as long as I enjoy my time on this earth.
We can debate this all day. Doesn't matter. Are you an alcoholic and do you need help to get yourself sober? If so, there is a place for you. Ask us where and we will send you the links you need. As long as we have excuses not to get help, we won't. AA is one thing. Just one. There are many others. AA not for you? No problem. God not for you? No problem. Addiction rehab takes many forms. Ask for what you need. The debate will get you where you are now.
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
just to play "Devil's advocate" telling me to be "open-minded" and "Willing" sounds exactly like telling me I have to be willing to accept something the logic in my mind tells me simply isn't so. I say this so you can understand what it feels like to someone like me in our thought processes.
Science, medicine, logic...the playground of the mind, has nothing to offer in terms of a remedy for addictions. One would think that if these means or methods held the key to a solution, then someone would have cashed in by now, though I don't mean to (entirely) exclude altruistic motivations in getting the job done.
Addictions and addictive thinking and behaviors have nothing at all to do with logic and are, instead, utterly irrational. I would have thought that this is obvious. Applying logic to this conundrum, I don't see how it's possible that the solution, any solution, can be either exclusively, or even primarily, logical. What I do know is that I got sober by doing the logical thing: I got myself to treatment, asked for help, and then used the help and support I received to get sober. Very little -- if anything at all -- of the content of my treatment, my help and my support was even remotely driven by logic.
We need to be more creative in order stop killing ourselves.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 59
Science, medicine, logic...the playground of the mind, has nothing to offer in terms of a remedy for addictions. One would think that if these means or methods held the key to a solution, then someone would have cashed in by now, though I don't mean to (entirely) exclude altruistic motivations in getting the job done.
Addictions and addictive thinking and behaviors have nothing at all to do with logic and are, instead, utterly irrational. I would have thought that this is obvious. Applying logic to this conundrum, I don't see how it's possible that the solution, any solution, can be either exclusively, or even primarily, logical. What I do know is that I got sober by doing the logical thing: I got myself to treatment, asked for help, and then used the help and support I received to get sober. Very little -- if anything at all -- of the content of my treatment, my help and my support was even remotely driven by logic.
We need to be more creative in order stop killing ourselves.
Addictions and addictive thinking and behaviors have nothing at all to do with logic and are, instead, utterly irrational. I would have thought that this is obvious. Applying logic to this conundrum, I don't see how it's possible that the solution, any solution, can be either exclusively, or even primarily, logical. What I do know is that I got sober by doing the logical thing: I got myself to treatment, asked for help, and then used the help and support I received to get sober. Very little -- if anything at all -- of the content of my treatment, my help and my support was even remotely driven by logic.
We need to be more creative in order stop killing ourselves.
Science and medicine have much to offer. There's Naltrexone, for instance, which has a high success rate. There's Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, which is even more successful.
I'm just saying, if you study addiction long enough and examine a specific case long enough, there is logic. There is a reason (or are many reasons) a person develops a drinking problem and is unable to quit. The thought processes are often irrational- they're maladaptive thought processes, but from a medical standpoint, they are not illogical.
Not putting you down, and if it works for you, then that's all that matters- I just don't want us to go overboard and dismiss science and logic outright in this thread.
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
You've stretched the meaning and the applicability of the word 'logic' so as to make its use meaningless.
All we need to do is study addictions or a specific case long enough, and then we can deem the process of addiction logical. Never gonna happen. I've studied addictions and have coordinated large-scale, federally-funded studies on addictions for many years, including the Collaborative Study of the Genetics of Alcoholism, a multi-site study across the States, that continues on for the past twenty seven years. We in the scientific community remain stumped by the sheer irrationality of the condition itself and the near-total absence of contributions provided by science.
Naltrexone is not a remedy for addictions; it only reduces or mutes the positive feelings associated with drinking. CBT is a form of psychotherapy that has been adjusted for the use of treatment for addictions. Beyond your two examples, nothing else remains in terms of logical and scientific contributions to the treatment of addictions.
"There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Philosophy meaning "science." -- Hamlet, by William Shakespeare
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 59
My intent here is not to argue or debate you, in particular. So, no hard feelings. I just want to try to set the record straight for anyone reading this thread who may be influenced either way, whether or not there is a scientific model of addiction. The last post was my own, and was my briefly summarizing the scientific and medical contributions. Now, I will quote the first few pages of Wikipedia. Again, this is not directed toward you. I just want to reinforce to undecided people reading this that there is logic and science in addiction. You can choose either side of this argument to come down. Whichever works best for you and helps keep you sober.
I also want to reinforce that CBT is a great alternative that can be used alone or supplemented by AA.
Addiction is a medical condition characterized by compulsive engagement in rewarding stimuli, despite adverse consequences. Despite the involvement of a number of psychosocial factors, a biological process – one which is induced by repeated exposure to an addictive stimulus – is the core pathology that drives the development and maintenance of an addiction. The two properties that characterize all addictive stimuli are that they are reinforcing (i.e., they increase the likelihood that a person will seek repeated exposure to them) and intrinsically rewarding (i.e., perceived as being positive or desirable).
Addiction is a disorder of the brain's reward system which arises through transcriptional and epigenetic mechanisms and occurs over time from chronically high levels of exposure to an addictive stimulus (e.g., morphine, cocaine, sexual intercourse, gambling, etc.). ΔFosB, a gene transcription factor, is a critical component and common factor in the development of virtually all forms of behavioral and drug addictions. Two decades of research into ΔFosB's role in addiction have demonstrated that addiction arises, and the associated compulsive behavior intensifies or attenuates, along with the genetic overexpression of ΔFosB in the D1-type medium spiny neurons of the nucleus accumbens. Due to the causal relationship between ΔFosB expression and addictions, it is used preclinically as an addiction biomarker. ΔFosB expression in these neurons directly and positively regulates drug self-administration and reward sensitization through positive reinforcement, while decreasing sensitivity to aversion.
Addiction is a disorder of the brain's reward system which arises through transcriptional and epigenetic mechanisms and occurs over time from chronically high levels of exposure to an addictive stimulus (e.g., morphine, cocaine, sexual intercourse, gambling, etc.). ΔFosB, a gene transcription factor, is a critical component and common factor in the development of virtually all forms of behavioral and drug addictions. Two decades of research into ΔFosB's role in addiction have demonstrated that addiction arises, and the associated compulsive behavior intensifies or attenuates, along with the genetic overexpression of ΔFosB in the D1-type medium spiny neurons of the nucleus accumbens. Due to the causal relationship between ΔFosB expression and addictions, it is used preclinically as an addiction biomarker. ΔFosB expression in these neurons directly and positively regulates drug self-administration and reward sensitization through positive reinforcement, while decreasing sensitivity to aversion.
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
That's only one perspective, and very nice words used to describe it. "Scientific Models" of addiction are jut that. Models that we hope will give us better understanding of phenomena we don't yet fully understand. Attaching the modifier 'scientific' to a pursuit or activity does not by virtue of doing so grant it increased validity, or validity at all.
The idea that addictions have psychological, social, biological, and interpersonal causes and consequences holds much more gravitas than does implicating known processes in the brain alone. Not good enough, if only because it fails to explain the majority of the phenomena related to addictions.
Besides, if addictions are limited to simple brain dysfunction, then it's difficult to imagine a remedy based on logic, if there is a remedy at all. We're not (yet) at the stage where we can rewire people's brains for even the simplest of behaviors, beyond damaging certain areas of the brain in order to compromise certain functions. No, people get sober by taking the necessary actions they need in order to get sober, and not by tweaking the brain, either with Naltrexone or CBT.
I'm both a research psychologist and a clinical psychologist. I'm well aware of the limitations of any kind of therapy, as well as the vast limitations in science as it is related to providing a remedy for addictions. And I'm not just speaking for myself.
By the way, and despite your several disclaimers, you've been arguing your point since the beginning, albeit in a sometimes friendly way. I just jumped on the boat thinking, "Why should he have all the fun?" And why would there be hard feelings?
The idea that addictions have psychological, social, biological, and interpersonal causes and consequences holds much more gravitas than does implicating known processes in the brain alone. Not good enough, if only because it fails to explain the majority of the phenomena related to addictions.
Besides, if addictions are limited to simple brain dysfunction, then it's difficult to imagine a remedy based on logic, if there is a remedy at all. We're not (yet) at the stage where we can rewire people's brains for even the simplest of behaviors, beyond damaging certain areas of the brain in order to compromise certain functions. No, people get sober by taking the necessary actions they need in order to get sober, and not by tweaking the brain, either with Naltrexone or CBT.
I'm both a research psychologist and a clinical psychologist. I'm well aware of the limitations of any kind of therapy, as well as the vast limitations in science as it is related to providing a remedy for addictions. And I'm not just speaking for myself.
By the way, and despite your several disclaimers, you've been arguing your point since the beginning, albeit in a sometimes friendly way. I just jumped on the boat thinking, "Why should he have all the fun?" And why would there be hard feelings?
I'm partial to AVRT from Rational Recovery, but mostly because it is completely private. It does not require any religious beliefs, but neither does it conflict with them or exclude them.
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 59
We are getting to a bad road here, and I will not continue, except to say (and this is relevant to OP's post), CBT is a viable alternative to AA. It can be used in conjunction with AA, or it can be used alone. The OP was looking for alternatives to AA and 12-Step programs, and I'm offering probably the most popular and effective alternative. To say that CBT is limited in what it can do is wildly irresponsible. It is important for people to know about it. To say differently, is, again, irresponsible. There are also limits to what AA can do. They are both perfectly fine options. And, as I said, they can even be used in conjunction with each other, so it doesn't even have to be an either/or. I think it's important that people don't end up with misinformation. I will end my part in this conversation here.
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
CBT helps a lot of people. We all know this. But, like all therapies of the mind, it has its limitations. I seriously doubt that anyone considering CBT would decide against it on the grounds that it cannot "fix" everything, anymore than someone considering AA would decide against it based on the same knowledge.
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