Maudcat

Hello, Chase, and welcome . I hope you will stay for a while because there is a lot of wisdom here at this forum. I am not heavily invested in A A, though the meetings really helped me early in my sobriety. But...long before AA for me, I was and remain a grateful member of Al-Anon. And it was in the Al-Anon rooms that I came to learn more about Higher Power. To me, HP is a force greater than me, a force for good , and a force to which I can turn over situations or problems that I just have to let go of. God is some people's higher power. It s not mine as, like you, I do not believe in a supreme deity. Higher power is your own visualization. Some view the healing properties of nature and natural surroundings as their higher power. I can tell you that I struggled with the concept of a higher power for a long time. I return to the statement that I made at the beginning of this post. It is a force greater than me, and knowing that the force exists for me is very comforting for me. So..good luck as you seek your own higher power.

Gottalife

Same here. I think an open mind is one of the essentials of recovery. By rights I should hang out in the secular forums. I am not in the least bit religious. But I discovered long ago that aa is not religious and I have had no problem blending in with the fellowship.

I developed a faith based in my experience. AA tells me a couple of things about faith in the book, firstly that the main purpose of the book is to put me in touch with a power greater than me that will solve my problem. Then it says all I need is the willingness to believe to make a start.
If my mind is closed to such an approach then AA may not be the right place for me. The trouble is for me there is no alternative to AA, I Found that out the hard way.

If I won't go along with the idea of. Power greater than me, then I must believe I have sufficient power of my own, which is patently not the case. So I just abandoned old ideas, like NYC, Tried new approaches, put aside my prejudices which were based in ignorance anyway, and haven't needed to drink for a very long time.

Fluffer

You might want to check out LifeRing meetings if they have them in your area.

PiratePrentice

I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I thought my posts were relevant to what Chase was saying, and I wanted to offer him support, by acknowledging that there are people like us out there. That said, I have, indeed, never been to a meeting.

I can't speak for Chase, but, for me, there's no room for a higher power of any sort in my mind. No spirituality. I don't consider myself close-minded, just logical. Not saying any other viewpoint is illogical. I can only speak from my viewpoint, which may be worth nothing.

I obviously can't judge AA if I've never been to a meeting. So feel to judge my objections based on that. And I obviously can't discount the fact that it's helped so many people throughout the years and is a tried and true method. So many people rely on it, that it would be silly to dismiss it. I respect those who have sought help at those meetings. If it works, it works, and clearly it does for most. If you're seeking help, it might be helpful to follow the masses.

I just happen to think there is no higher power/life force/"God as I understand it". I don't judge those who do. But people like us do exist. Not trying to debate. I think this is relevant to what the topic here is, and I'm trying to help by showing I'm in the same boat.

I pass no judgment on those who do believe in the things I just mentioned. If it keeps you sober, then it's obviously working, even if you go into it as an atheist or believer. Or if it's vital to your religious beliefs/spirituality.

I would just rather not accept my sobriety as some some sort of spiritual/religious awakening. I will no longer post in this thread and will move, instead, to the secular board where it belongs. I'm sorry to any I offended, and I meant no harm. Just trying to relate to Chase.

LastDrinks

Are there any in Australia at all Dee? I can't seem to find anything. I don't think AA is for me.

Dee74

I know SMART has an Australian website

https://smartrecoveryaustralia.com.au/
http://lifering.org/

Life Ring has meetings through the world too, although maybe not in Oz.

If there are no face to face meetings near you I believe they both have online meetings

It's pretty easy to become a facilitator (smart) or conveyor (lifering) too and start your own meetings

D

Dee74

You didn't offend me Prentice.
I didn't use any recognised method, AA or otherwise

I was just laying down the ground rules for the forum

D

Darwinia

You are defnitely not alone. I also battle with AA. I still go but more because I do not want to feel like a quitter than for what it means to me. It is based on god. The whole higher power thing escapes me. Also, in our group the same people tell the same stories of their drunk days every week. SR has meant a lot more to me than AA.

Pelagic263

This has been an interesting discussion. I've been grappling with the "higher power" thing as well and have concluded that it just isn't going to happen. There will not be a sudden "spiritual awakening." But if you read appendix 2 in AA you'll find that they also acknowledge a gradual awakening and leave the higher power about as broad as possible. I'm open to that if it happens.

What happens in AA meetings may be different. But I became an atheist at a very young age (12 actually) so I have spent all my life being exposed to religious practice while not believing. I've said the Lord's Prayer countless times without it meaning much to me. I was married by a pastor and, oh well, I went along with it. It's not too difficult and I certainly don't get upset about it. Why should I? I don't believe and I'm comfortable with that. Religion clearly helps others and I'm good with that as well (within reason).

The key is your recovery and as others have said you do what you have to do. I'm working with SMART right now and I'll expand my resources until I get this thing right. That might include AA.

The topic is fascinating though. William James covers the "conversion experience" in detail in his classic The Varieties of Religious Experience. It's really a neat phenomenon from a psychological perspective, whether you're a believer or not.

cwood3

I hate to pop anybody's bubble, but you won't get the gist of AA by attending "one" meeting. It's not a flu shot. It's about learning a way (not the only way) to seek a life of "quality" sobriety. It's not a one shot deal, nor is it a 4-year curriculum that you "graduate" from.

I was conditioned into thinking I was supposed to hate brussel sprouts from my childhood friends. One day I tried them and discovered they weren't so bad. Today I love brussel sprouts.

MIRecovery

I am a AA supporter a have been to well over a thousand meetings so I believe I can speak intelligently to the whole religion question

For any discussion of AA the starting point is you have to understand AA is not an entity. People speak of AA as a thing and it is not. AA is a very loosely structured group of alcoholics that get together in small groups to solve their common problem of alcoholism. The only requirement is a desire to stop drinking. Each group is autonomous and is free run their meetings pretty much any way they want to run them.

There are are three basic parts to AA. The meetings, the steps, and the traditions. Each is separate and must be understood before any intelligent comment can be made about AA as a whole.

The only rules AA has are the traditions although to call them rules would be an over statement. The traditions are in place to protect AA from it's members. They are a loose set of guidelines that insures inclusiveness and humility.

IMO AA is based on the therory of a higher power and the belief in a higher power is key to getting and staying sober. It has nothing to do with religion. The misconception that it is religious is well founded and the Lord's Prayer is a perfect example. A lot had been written about this subject but the short story is that it is to be treated as a generic prayer that is not associated with any particular religion. This is great if you are an AA historian but how would a new comer know this? On a side note the reason AA meetings are often held at churches is because churches are free or low cost.

In closing AA iscomprised and founded by very broken people who have sobriety, peace, and happiness. Are we perfect, no way. Are there people and groups that do more harm than good? Absolutely. But on a whole AA has a solution to our problem with Alcoholism. So before you condemn read the first 164 pages of the Big Book and read the 12 traditions. These readings will show you what AA is and isn't regardless of how it is practiced in a particular group.

NoelleR

Whether as an Atheist or a Born-Again Christian, I have always felt that the Lord's Prayer had no place in AA, and I found it offensive....

Which brings me to two statements by Bill W (to Ben, a GSO staffer) regarding belief, prayer, and the Lord's Prayer specifically)..................................:

1) "...A.A.’s collective experience suggests that to get sober and stay sober, alcoholics need to accept and depend upon a spiritual entity, or force, that they perceive as greater than themselves..."

2) "...reciting the prayer has been a purely voluntary..."

3) "...you do not have to participate in any prayers, and if someone is offended by this, it is really that person’s problem, not yours. The same goes for being a ‘nonbeliever’ in a group—that’s your affair..."

Responding to a member who questioned the practice of closing meetings with the Lord’s Prayer, Bill wrote in 1959............:

4) "...This prayer is of such widespread use and recognition that the argument of its Christian origin seems a little far-fetched..."

Regarding #1, OK, something greater than self, but a spiritual entity, or force.....? I think not.

Regarding #'s 2&3, I feel they come across as somewhat exclusive, especially for an organization that touts itself as being 'all- inclusive.' ...and almost like 'blaming the victim;' saying the prayer isn't offensive, and if you find it offensive, it's all on you; it's not the prayer that excludes folks, you're excluding yourself by not saying the prayer......

...and #4...? To me this is just an ignorant statement by a supposedly intelligent person.

Just some things to think about.

(o:

Irnldy001

Lapsed Jewish person who attends AA. In church halls.
I'm with whomever said it takes a lot of meetings to get a general gist.
There are meetings I avoid like the plague and ones that feel right at home.
I have never felt a great deal of religion or God talk except during the recitations of the 12 steps at the start of the meeting.
At a closed speaker meeting, we usually have two speakers - one who is newer to recovery and one with more time. They speak according to our guidelines - how it was, how it ended, and how it is now. Not a lot of God talk there - just straightforward stories.
For me the higher power is just the strength of AA itself. That I can call my sponsor instead of drink. That I'm learning coping mechanisms that are not booze.
If AA is not your thing - many have chimed in with alternate solutions. AA would also be the first to tell you to go and find ANYTHING that helps. It's not a restrictive or jealous fellowship.

cwood3

I think MIR, NoeelR, and Irnldy have conveyed the idea of "AA" very well. Anyone who has gone through the basic written literature of AA will regognize two key words that are repeated over and over again; "open-minded" and "willing/willingness".

I have difficulty finding any derogatory or non-positive connotation with those two words.

tekink

just to play "Devil's advocate" telling me to be "open-minded" and "Willing" sounds exactly like telling me I have to be willing to accept something the logic in my mind tells me simply isn't so. I say this so you can understand what it feels like to someone like me in our thought processes.

EndGameNYC

Hi Gottalife.

I didn't voluntarily open my mind when I put down the drink and then finally started working on getting sober. The truth is that my mind was broken, as were my thinking and my beliefs. They weren't at all conducive to living a better, sober life, and so were as useful as a car without an engine. I only opened my mind when the debris was cleared away, and I had no choice but to accept that I was a wreck. That whatever it was that I'd been doing, that my best thinking and my sacred convictions had to have played a part in my own crusade to self-destruction. It would have been both illogical and irrational of me to think otherwise.

It then became a very simple thing for me: I could either engage in a debate around the principals of the methods I was using in order to heal, to get well, to get sober, or I could get sober. I could make plans, and act on them, or I could make excuses about why getting sober wasn't for me, based on my biases around what I perceived to be inadequate and philosophically unacceptable in the methods that were available to me to get sober.

I made a few unscheduled and involuntary trips to the ER towards the end of my drinking, and was told that I almost died on more than one occasion. I was unconscious during most of the rides. That taught me everything I needed to know about religion and the God question that I'd ever need to know. For me, arguing within myself over whether or not I believed in a "Higher Power" was never an issue. I didn't worry myself over whether or not such a thing even exists, or whether paying tribute to a Higher Power would then influence my recovery and my state of being, due exclusively to the fact that it no longer mattered. That saving my life was more important than magical thinking.

There's a morbid and lethal irony when, while someone is drowning, he doesn't accept help because his beliefs and convictions are in opposition to those who are trying to save him. And, worse, when it was his own beliefs that got him into trouble in the first place.

Irnldy001

The willingness is the will to stop. Under any plan or program. Open minded in my vernacular simply means that your method of recovery may not be what you envisioned. For some it is rehab, for some AA, for some secular connections, for some SR. None of us judges how a person gets help - just that they be open minded to help. I don't want to get into semantics. I am an AAer who does not delve into the God stuff. It works for me. I'm just suggesting you find what works for you. I also tried things that failed - I had to be open minded enough to try other things.
Make sense?

cwood3

...looks like brussel sprouts for lunch........

tekink

My parents would make me sit at the table until all the brussels sprouts were gone from my plate. I would gag half of them back up, simply chewing one invokes an involuntary gag reflex in me.

It turns out I'm cursed with a heightened sense of taste, it's a genetic thing you can test for. I'm a SuperTaster

you'll see those brussels sprouts on the top of the list:

uncorked

Hi ChaseReaper, congrats on 3 days! It gets easier.

AA isn't the only way to get sober, as some posters mentioned. I tried AA and it wasn't for me. I didn't like the religious overtones despite the fact that I'm not atheist/agnostic.

Not sure where you live, but if you're near a largish city, see if there is a Smart Recovery, Rational Recovery or Three Principles meeting near you. I went to a rehab that employed the Three Principles philosophy, which aligned with my beliefs and values, and I've been sober for almost a year.

The fact is, though, most people stop drinking on their own without the help of AA or other recovery groups. Making a plan that works for YOU is what's important. I found that I simply needed to get out of the habit of drinking. I realize that sounds simplistic and it is. But I was a "it's 5 o'clock, time for my wine" kind of drinker....except that I didn't stop at 6. Changing that habit was hard at first but now I rarely notice that it's 5pm and I don't have a glass of wine in my hand. I won't lie, sometimes I do wish I could indulge, especially when I'm out to dinner and see others having wine. But it passes.

Playing the tape in my head of what would happen after the second or third drink, how I would become emotional, how I would feel like crap in the morning -- that is really helpful. I also have the occasional non-alcoholic beer. (That's a matter of debate among folks here but it works for me.)

There are plenty of ways to stop drinking. You just have to find the right way for you.