Yup.
A Day at a Time
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grand Rapids MI
Posts: 6,435
I have suffered a lot of loss, parents, sister, 5 dogs but the loss of a child is profoundly different. So different that losing a child is not even in the same category. The loss of anything or than a child shapes us, strengthens us, and helps us to be better people. We grieve, grow and move on. Not so with a child.
After talking with many people on child loss sites, the grief never gets better, there is no healing, learning to live in chronic pain is as good as it gets. I suppose we grow knowing that our very soul is permanently altered and we have survived it. Move on? Not even sort of or kind of. We get accomplished at putting on our happy face. We know the answers people want to hear so we lie.
Child loss is a singularly unique experience and is so unlike anything I have ever experienced. They have words like widow, widower, orphan but there are no words for the surviving parents because there is no single word that covers the breath and depth of the experience.
Sorry sometimes this stuff just spills out
After talking with many people on child loss sites, the grief never gets better, there is no healing, learning to live in chronic pain is as good as it gets. I suppose we grow knowing that our very soul is permanently altered and we have survived it. Move on? Not even sort of or kind of. We get accomplished at putting on our happy face. We know the answers people want to hear so we lie.
Child loss is a singularly unique experience and is so unlike anything I have ever experienced. They have words like widow, widower, orphan but there are no words for the surviving parents because there is no single word that covers the breath and depth of the experience.
Sorry sometimes this stuff just spills out
EndGame
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
Originally Posted by MIRecovery 
I have suffered a lot of loss, parents, sister, 5 dogs but the loss of a child is profoundly different. So different that losing a child is not even in the same category. The loss of anything or than a child shapes us, strengthens us, and helps us to be better people. We grieve, grow and move on. Not so with a child.
After talking with many people on child loss sites, the grief never gets better, there is no healing, learning to live in chronic pain is as good as it gets. I suppose we grow knowing that our very soul is permanently altered and we have survived it. Move on? Not even sort of or kind of. We get accomplished at putting on our happy face. We know the answers people want to hear so we lie.
Child loss is a singularly unique experience and is so unlike anything I have ever experienced. They have words like widow, widower, orphan but there are no words for the surviving parents because there is no single word that covers the breath and depth of the experience.
Sorry sometimes this stuff just spills out
After talking with many people on child loss sites, the grief never gets better, there is no healing, learning to live in chronic pain is as good as it gets. I suppose we grow knowing that our very soul is permanently altered and we have survived it. Move on? Not even sort of or kind of. We get accomplished at putting on our happy face. We know the answers people want to hear so we lie.
Child loss is a singularly unique experience and is so unlike anything I have ever experienced. They have words like widow, widower, orphan but there are no words for the surviving parents because there is no single word that covers the breath and depth of the experience.
Sorry sometimes this stuff just spills out
I've never in my life known any greater loss among the people I've known as devastating as the loss of a child. Many years ago, a very good, non-drinking friend of mine was taking care of his toddler son while his wife was out shopping. He went inside to answer the phone, and came out to find his son floating lifeless in the pool. This destroyed his marriage, and nearly did the same to him. How does a person bear that kind of guilt?
That was over twenty years ago. He's rarely available to get together with me. My sense is that he's made a conscious and continuous effort to avoid people, places and things that even marginally remind him of the event. The rare times we do speak, I no longer feel as though I'm with a whole person, that he's possessed by something that's empty even of emptiness. But I know better.
I urged him to get into therapy, and he waited several years after his son's death to get started. He's since remarried. A compassionate woman with two son's from a previous marriage. He's taken the role as their father, and they've all done well as a result. But even if you never knew him, you'd know that something was missing to talk to him for only a few minutes.
There are things in life that are much worse than dying, but there's nothing like experiencing the death of someone we love. Though it wasn't a child, I know this from personal experience, and I remain heartbroken and helpless to do anything about it as a result.
As always, I wish you all the best.
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
“Most people take life much too seriously and worry about all the wrong things: security, advancement, prosperity, all those things that give you heartburn. I think people would be better off if they relaxed and had a little more fun. Think about it: We’re all here on a big rock, zippin’ around a bad star for no good reason. We don’t know where we came from, we don’t know where we’re going, we don’t know how long it’s gonna last, and we keep having to go to the bathroom. And on top of that, the whole thing is completely meaningless. Do you ever stop to think about that? It’s all meaningless. All this detail. What’s it for? This table. What’s it doing here? What’s the purpose? Who cares? I think the whole thing is someone’s idea of a great practical joke. So relax that extra-tight American anal sphincter, folks, and have a little fun.” – George Carlin
Sounds like Carlin must've read Camus and the Absurdists and Existentialists.
EndGame, thanks so much for taking time to share your thoughts and experiences, and your great insights. I will re-read them many times, I'm sure.
I fell in love with Existentialism when I was 20 years old. I immediately realized it was the best explanation for things I'd ever come across. I still feel that way after a few years.
And I think my mother must've felt suicide was a viable or legitimate option to the meaninglessness of life? Maybe, I dunno. And then, there was her addiction, at the forefront, so, it's hard to say. No clear answers and never will be any.
It hurts knowing my own mother answered life in this way. What a legacy.
My response to it is overwhelming anger. And of course, deep sadness.
Sounds like Carlin must've read Camus and the Absurdists and Existentialists.
EndGame, thanks so much for taking time to share your thoughts and experiences, and your great insights. I will re-read them many times, I'm sure.
I fell in love with Existentialism when I was 20 years old.
I immediately realized it was the best explanation for things I'd ever come across. I still feel that way after a few years. And I think my mother must've felt suicide was a viable or legitimate option to the meaninglessness of life? Maybe, I dunno. And then, there was her addiction, at the forefront, so, it's hard to say. No clear answers and never will be any.
It hurts knowing my own mother answered life in this way. What a legacy.
My response to it is overwhelming anger. And of course, deep sadness.
EndGame
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
There's a great deal of misinformation and misunderstanding about suicide. For those who of us who are terrified of our own thoughts around it, fleeting or otherwise, it's a defensive convenience to describe the ultimate sacrifice as an act of cowardice.
Three people that I knew in my life, one a good friend, killed themselves. Some of my patients have made the attempt, but none successfully. There are also different classes of suicide, which I will not now get into, but certainly a Wall Street trader who makes the leap after he's been found stealing millions of dollars from his clients is a significantly different event than someone who takes his own life following a lifetime of continuous suffering, of living each day with his own mind arguing with itself...criticizing itself, belittling itself and, as a result, taking personally every single perceived slight from the rest of the world as further proof that he has no right to live and every obligation to die, particularly when he's convinced himself over the course of a lifetime that the rest of the world, often the people closest to him, would be much better off without him.
I've also had a lot of professional experience. The one constant in every attempt or successful suicide is the presence of psychopathology, usually towards the severe end of the spectrum. It could be unbearable anxiety, depression, or psychosis that's the product of either anxiety or depression, or both.
People who take their own lives are not cowards. I want to be clear: By stating this, I am not telling anyone what they should feel about someone in their lives who they lost to suicide. Unless and until that becomes my business, it's none of my business. They are not more or less selfish than anyone else, and many argue that what they do is more a selfless act than otherwise. We make such accusations because there are people who are left behind, who have to deal with the emotional trauma that likely changes their lives forever and in dramatic ways. Again, I know my limitations, and I respect my own boundaries as well as those of others. I would never tell anyone who's lost someone to suicide, or for any other reason, what they should feel or how they should process their feelings around the event. And no one should ever be doing such a thing. The best I can do is sit with them or walk with them as they go through it.
People I've known who've tried or succeeded in their attempts accomplished a great deal in life by staying alive as long as they did amidst relentless and withering emotional and/or physical pain with no real relief in sight, often beginning with their first conscious thought. They've generally been sensitive people in the sense that they take seriously the feelings of other people, yet feel helpless to do anything about their own.
Not everyone can see the signs of a potential suicide, even those of us who are trained to see them. And not everyone is capable of making a successful intervention. We never know that we can do such a thing until we do it, and that gives us no guarantee that we can do it again. There is never a "solution" to suicide. Short of physical restraint, there's nothing we can do to stop someone from killing herself. And though I know what being left with the guilt and the other feelings is like, knowing never made it any easier.
Three people that I knew in my life, one a good friend, killed themselves. Some of my patients have made the attempt, but none successfully. There are also different classes of suicide, which I will not now get into, but certainly a Wall Street trader who makes the leap after he's been found stealing millions of dollars from his clients is a significantly different event than someone who takes his own life following a lifetime of continuous suffering, of living each day with his own mind arguing with itself...criticizing itself, belittling itself and, as a result, taking personally every single perceived slight from the rest of the world as further proof that he has no right to live and every obligation to die, particularly when he's convinced himself over the course of a lifetime that the rest of the world, often the people closest to him, would be much better off without him.
I've also had a lot of professional experience. The one constant in every attempt or successful suicide is the presence of psychopathology, usually towards the severe end of the spectrum. It could be unbearable anxiety, depression, or psychosis that's the product of either anxiety or depression, or both.
People who take their own lives are not cowards. I want to be clear: By stating this, I am not telling anyone what they should feel about someone in their lives who they lost to suicide. Unless and until that becomes my business, it's none of my business. They are not more or less selfish than anyone else, and many argue that what they do is more a selfless act than otherwise. We make such accusations because there are people who are left behind, who have to deal with the emotional trauma that likely changes their lives forever and in dramatic ways. Again, I know my limitations, and I respect my own boundaries as well as those of others. I would never tell anyone who's lost someone to suicide, or for any other reason, what they should feel or how they should process their feelings around the event. And no one should ever be doing such a thing. The best I can do is sit with them or walk with them as they go through it.
People I've known who've tried or succeeded in their attempts accomplished a great deal in life by staying alive as long as they did amidst relentless and withering emotional and/or physical pain with no real relief in sight, often beginning with their first conscious thought. They've generally been sensitive people in the sense that they take seriously the feelings of other people, yet feel helpless to do anything about their own.
Not everyone can see the signs of a potential suicide, even those of us who are trained to see them. And not everyone is capable of making a successful intervention. We never know that we can do such a thing until we do it, and that gives us no guarantee that we can do it again. There is never a "solution" to suicide. Short of physical restraint, there's nothing we can do to stop someone from killing herself. And though I know what being left with the guilt and the other feelings is like, knowing never made it any easier.
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
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Oh, I agree with you that they are not cowards. My mother was no coward. She was strong and very brave, and very intelligent. She was riddled with anxiety, depression, and all sorts of conflicting emotions. She was so highly sensitive to other people, probably unbearably so.
She claimed to have been molested by my great-grandfather. She found it very hard to forgive her mother and father for not believing her when she first told them. I think, over the years, they did believe it. My grandmother fiercely protected me from him. She despised him. I actually had to stop her from beating him with a belt when he was ailing, in his 90s, living in their home. She was so angry and unforgiving towards him. I felt he shouldn't be abused even though he abused my mother.
My anger over the suicide is toward her and toward myself. I don't know if you remember the details of the night she took the pills. But it is rather shocking, and so I don't often post about it. I do blame myself at times. Not fully, but partially. There were consequences of my actions.
She claimed to have been molested by my great-grandfather. She found it very hard to forgive her mother and father for not believing her when she first told them. I think, over the years, they did believe it. My grandmother fiercely protected me from him. She despised him. I actually had to stop her from beating him with a belt when he was ailing, in his 90s, living in their home. She was so angry and unforgiving towards him. I felt he shouldn't be abused even though he abused my mother.
My anger over the suicide is toward her and toward myself. I don't know if you remember the details of the night she took the pills. But it is rather shocking, and so I don't often post about it. I do blame myself at times. Not fully, but partially. There were consequences of my actions.
Last edited by Dee74; 08-28-2016 at 08:13 PM.
A Day at a Time
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grand Rapids MI
Posts: 6,435
Originally Posted by EndGameNYC
I never intended to make that kind of comparison, MIR. I'm saying this not because you've make such an accusation, but to be certain that you know this.
I've never in my life known any greater loss among the people I've known as devastating as the loss of a child. Many years ago, a very good, non-drinking friend of mine was taking care of his toddler son while his wife was out shopping. He went inside to answer the phone, and came out to find his son floating lifeless in the pool. This destroyed his marriage, and nearly did the same to him. How does a person bear that kind of guilt?
That was over twenty years ago. He's rarely available to get together with me. My sense is that he's made a conscious and continuous effort to avoid people, places and things that even marginally remind him of the event. The rare times we do speak, I no longer feel as though I'm with a whole person, that he's possessed by something that's empty even of emptiness. But I know better.
I urged him to get into therapy, and he waited several years after his son's death to get started. He's since remarried. A compassionate woman with two son's from a previous marriage. He's taken the role as their father, and they've all done well as a result. But even if you never knew him, you'd know that something was missing to talk to him for only a few minutes.
There are things in life that are much worse than dying, but there's nothing like experiencing the death of someone we love. Though it wasn't a child, I know this from personal experience, and I remain heartbroken and helpless to do anything about it as a result.
As always, I wish you all the best.
I've never in my life known any greater loss among the people I've known as devastating as the loss of a child. Many years ago, a very good, non-drinking friend of mine was taking care of his toddler son while his wife was out shopping. He went inside to answer the phone, and came out to find his son floating lifeless in the pool. This destroyed his marriage, and nearly did the same to him. How does a person bear that kind of guilt?
That was over twenty years ago. He's rarely available to get together with me. My sense is that he's made a conscious and continuous effort to avoid people, places and things that even marginally remind him of the event. The rare times we do speak, I no longer feel as though I'm with a whole person, that he's possessed by something that's empty even of emptiness. But I know better.
I urged him to get into therapy, and he waited several years after his son's death to get started. He's since remarried. A compassionate woman with two son's from a previous marriage. He's taken the role as their father, and they've all done well as a result. But even if you never knew him, you'd know that something was missing to talk to him for only a few minutes.
There are things in life that are much worse than dying, but there's nothing like experiencing the death of someone we love. Though it wasn't a child, I know this from personal experience, and I remain heartbroken and helpless to do anything about it as a result.
As always, I wish you all the best.
Great post and best wishes
Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 4,251
Originally Posted by 2muchpain
I think what's most important is not why others do what they do, but how we internalize it. It's also true that people that lead miserable lives look for the weakest link to take their misery on. I think one of the worst examples of this is when someone plays the victim role. Their open targets for people to dump on them. But what I don't think most people realize is that in that situation, both the victim and the the people taking advantage of them benefit. They might moan and groan about how terrible their treated, but never make any changes to keep this from happening. They reinforce each other which just continues the cycle.
IMHO, building on self-esteem and realizing that self-worth is an inside job and has little to do with how people treat us is very important to not letting miserable people to dump their misery on us. I could be wrong, but I doubt miserable people would bother to take the time to go after someone who comes across as strong and confident. It took me a very long time to figure this out. I don't own their problems, only mine. John
IMHO, building on self-esteem and realizing that self-worth is an inside job and has little to do with how people treat us is very important to not letting miserable people to dump their misery on us. I could be wrong, but I doubt miserable people would bother to take the time to go after someone who comes across as strong and confident. It took me a very long time to figure this out. I don't own their problems, only mine. John
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Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,293
Originally Posted by Meraviglioso
I'm still reading through the whole post but wanted to thank you for this. I am a master at playing the victim role and it is such an unappealing and damaging characteristic. I am working very hard to change this. Thank you again.
Today, I do take meds for anxiety and depression but that's it. The rest requires a lot of foot work. Maybe this is why I both understand how easy it is to get stuck in a cycle of self-pity and can empathize with them, yet have little patience for people that "choose" to continue with this destructive cycle. Some people might take some of my posts relating to this issue as uncaring and negative, but actually it's the opposite. John
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 350
I don't expect anyone to find these ideas appealing. I believe the majority of people on this planet to be straight-up Evil. They control the world (always have). The only pleasure they experience is giving others pain. For instance, people at the top tiers of society - politicians (Gov.), CEOs, people who own all the land and industries (who essentially don't have to work). Or they reside heavily at the bottom, making trouble there. They also populate the "middle," helping to keep those in power in power. And then there are the rest of us - trying to be 'good' and trying to rationalize why others behave indifferently or with contempt towards those who slave for them, or who literally have nothing at all. I consider this planet to be hell, while there is "Another Side" where we eventually find our true Homes. And it is generally this homesickness that leads to so much suffering: loneliness, fear, pain, uncertainly, emptiness, and a sense of being "lost." There is actually a Church that represents these ideas, but it's formal leader died three years ago. Very sad. Ah well, just another perspective.
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Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,293
Sorry you feel that way Dame, but you probably have good reasons for feeling that way. I agree with you on some of the points you made but I do believe we have control over a lot of what goes on around us. Your post reminded me of something I was thinking about a few days ago. The community where I live is pretty friendly once they get to know you. I know the people at the pharmacy, the grocery stores, the gym and the schools I work in. My life pretty much revolves around a 10 mile radius. I think it's important that I involve myself in this community and try to connect with the people around me. I think the loneliness, fear and emptiness you mentioned has a lot to do with a person's perspective on things. The quality of my life depends on the community I live in and the interactions I have with the people there. I don't disagree with you at all regarding your general perspective on life. But I think that's why it's so important for people to take control of their lives and not let life's circumstances control you. I've met a lot of grumpy people that absolutely hate their lives. Many of them have good reasons for feeling that way, but they don't seem to realize that with a different attitude and outlook, things can be much better. Hope things get better for you soon. Tough spot to be in. John
EndGame
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
Could just as well be talking about addiction.
If you think that you're too fragile to read about suicidal thoughts, this article may not be for you.
. . .
On the low end, and including bipolar depression and PTSD, it's estimated that there are between twenty five and thirty million people (or more) in the United States who suffer from some type of depression. My personal estimate hovers around fifty million. Many of these people don't know that they're affected by major depression, while some are aware that something isn't quite right, but are either unable or unwilling to do something about it. At the same time, most people with some mental illness report a marked improvement in their symptoms and quality of life after participating in some form of treatment.
There are so many misconceptions around what major depression is, that it's simply not worth it to list them here. The author of this article does, I think, a good job in giving it a voice.
The author talks a lot about stigma and the near-inevitable isolation that comes with it. Why is there still such a stigma around depression (and alcoholism)? It's because when we blame the person for his affliction due to some defect of character, such as laziness, bad habits, or poor choices, we can then hold onto the false confidence that, because I'm a better person than he is, I won't be affected by things like depression or addictions. All I have to do is keep on doing what I'm doing. Right?
Of course, when I fail at something or when the consequences of my actions are catastrophic, and publicly so, I can always blame external forces, such as unforeseen circumstances, bad luck, or failures on the part of other people. Anything but me.
Blaming other people for my suffering is essentially a defense against my ever experiencing or going through what others have brought upon themselves, if only because I am not them. Placing blame on people and things beyond my control protects my ego from a perceived drop in self-esteem that is experienced as dramatic as it is precipitous.
This dynamic is explained in what psychologist's refer to as "attribution theory."
If you recognize yourself in this article, whether for depression, addiction, or any other reason, I hope you can get the help you need.
This Is What Depression Feels Like
. . .
On the low end, and including bipolar depression and PTSD, it's estimated that there are between twenty five and thirty million people (or more) in the United States who suffer from some type of depression. My personal estimate hovers around fifty million. Many of these people don't know that they're affected by major depression, while some are aware that something isn't quite right, but are either unable or unwilling to do something about it. At the same time, most people with some mental illness report a marked improvement in their symptoms and quality of life after participating in some form of treatment.
There are so many misconceptions around what major depression is, that it's simply not worth it to list them here. The author of this article does, I think, a good job in giving it a voice.
The author talks a lot about stigma and the near-inevitable isolation that comes with it. Why is there still such a stigma around depression (and alcoholism)? It's because when we blame the person for his affliction due to some defect of character, such as laziness, bad habits, or poor choices, we can then hold onto the false confidence that, because I'm a better person than he is, I won't be affected by things like depression or addictions. All I have to do is keep on doing what I'm doing. Right?
Of course, when I fail at something or when the consequences of my actions are catastrophic, and publicly so, I can always blame external forces, such as unforeseen circumstances, bad luck, or failures on the part of other people. Anything but me.
Blaming other people for my suffering is essentially a defense against my ever experiencing or going through what others have brought upon themselves, if only because I am not them. Placing blame on people and things beyond my control protects my ego from a perceived drop in self-esteem that is experienced as dramatic as it is precipitous.
This dynamic is explained in what psychologist's refer to as "attribution theory."
If you recognize yourself in this article, whether for depression, addiction, or any other reason, I hope you can get the help you need.
This Is What Depression Feels Like
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Originally Posted by 2muchpain
Sorry you feel that way Dame, but you probably have good reasons for feeling that way. I agree with you on some of the points you made but I do believe we have control over a lot of what goes on around us. Your post reminded me of something I was thinking about a few days ago. The community where I live is pretty friendly once they get to know you. I know the people at the pharmacy, the grocery stores, the gym and the schools I work in. My life pretty much revolves around a 10 mile radius. I think it's important that I involve myself in this community and try to connect with the people around me. I think the loneliness, fear and emptiness you mentioned has a lot to do with a person's perspective on things. The quality of my life depends on the community I live in and the interactions I have with the people there. I don't disagree with you at all regarding your general perspective on life. But I think that's why it's so important for people to take control of their lives and not let life's circumstances control you. I've met a lot of grumpy people that absolutely hate their lives. Many of them have good reasons for feeling that way, but they don't seem to realize that with a different attitude and outlook, things can be much better. Hope things get better for you soon. Tough spot to be in. John
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Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,293
Originally Posted by Dame
It's good that you feel you have a good measure of control in your life and that you feel your community is supportive. I was simply describing a philosophy. You needn't feel sorry for me: I wasn't asking for pity, nor do I feel like my "spot" is a uniquely "tough." I'm sure your reply was well intended, but I try to be careful about presuming I know a persons heart/mind/experiences with more understanding than they do themselves.
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Originally Posted by EndGameNYC
Besides, I'm allowed to not know where I'm going until I get there.
I think this was what Steve Jobs was getting at in that commencement speech about 'connecting the dots' throughout our lives, seeing the paths we took and how it all made sense, eventually. But only when viewing it after the fact, in hindsight.
EndGame
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
Originally Posted by EndGameNYC:
Besides, I'm allowed to not know where I'm going until I get there.
That's great.
I wasn't aware of the connection you made when I wrote what you quoted from my post. But now, in retrospect, I'm able to connect the dots.
Besides, I'm allowed to not know where I'm going until I get there.
Originally Posted by Soberpotamus
Somehow I missed this the first time around. It jumped off the page as I read through your long post again today.
I think this was what Steve Jobs was getting at in that commencement speech about 'connecting the dots' throughout our lives, seeing the paths we took and how it all made sense, eventually. But only when viewing it after the fact, in hindsight.
I think this was what Steve Jobs was getting at in that commencement speech about 'connecting the dots' throughout our lives, seeing the paths we took and how it all made sense, eventually. But only when viewing it after the fact, in hindsight.
I wasn't aware of the connection you made when I wrote what you quoted from my post. But now, in retrospect, I'm able to connect the dots.
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
Originally Posted by sleepie
Thing is, they never feel that way. Like calling out a narcissist, they take it as a compliment.
thats just an obversation from listening to and reading thousands of stories from people in AA.
then theres my own personal experience.
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